All things Chinese CoronaVirus

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

Some good ideas being discussed, finally.

i dont understand how we expect our elected officials to compromise when the discussion here is a microcosm of the same.

[Peter Brown]

Ramp up production of the Abbott 5-minute test kit, get other factories to make it

OMG, Pete we agree on something. I have been saying this for at least days. Are you stealing ideas from me? At least subconsciously?

This is really going to hurt me on the “Peter Brown unbalanced scale.”

There’s hope for you yet. Or for me. Not sure which.

Hope springs eternal, man; that is the American way. Positivity is what differentiates Americans from nearly every other culture.

What BS.

The cult of pessimism is endemic to the Party to which you belong; it leads to a distinct lack of pride in America.

Save yourself JHU72...you have but one life to live! Go Team USA!!!!!

[DocBarrister]

Pete, Six, RRR -- I'm not personally interested in the partisan ax grinding. I didn't need Covid to make me dislike Trump.

So again, what should we be doing differently?

Keep doing the full SD until 5/31 but just not trash Trump?

SD lite a la Sweden?

Fully re-open the country today?

What does "Back to work!!" mean?

RRR -- 2.8 million people die in the U.S. every year. So adding an incremental 2.2 million seems like a material variance, no?

I'll offer a few ideas.

Ramp up production of the Abbott 5-minute test kit, get other factories to make it, get these into designated city and town zones overnight, make all tests free, test everyone. With no valid test, you do not get to do anything: flights, work, church, etc... Walk around with an app on your phone or a piece of paper with a valid test result.

Let anyone 60 and under with no underlying compromised system go back to work, with a test that says 'clean'. If over 60, wait one more month.

After May 31, anyone over 60 can rejoin civilization with a clear test.

Anyone who tests 'clean' still needs to test once per month until a vaccine is sanctioned.

.....besides your first sentence, and ONLY that sentence....the rest of your ideas are down write scary. Fascist, in fact.
(did I mention arm bands for test takers? )

Point noted about the armbands...

Maybe it could be yellow stars.

People who surrender freedoms for security end up with neither.

The greatest danger in a public health emergency like this one are people who indulge their ignorance and stupidity.

Whether it is President Trump or his supporters on this forum, we cannot afford to countenance the ignorant and stupid to act upon their ignorance and stupidity. What was once an annoyance can now be lethal.

In this pandemic, STUPID KILLS.

Lives are at stake ... so maybe we can put aside the moronic far-right ideology until we get this crisis under control.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Just how lethal has Trump’s incompetence become?

South Korea implemented a massive coronavirus testing program by early February, while Trump wallowed in denial and lies for nearly two months.

The difference?

South Korea mourned its 200th coronavirus death yesterday.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence’s Indiana alone has more confirmed coronavirus deaths, 203, than all of South Korea.

THAT illustrates the lethality of Trump’s ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

DocBarrister

[Peter Brown]

Just how lethal has Trump’s incompetence become?

South Korea implemented a massive coronavirus testing program by early February, while Trump wallowed in denial and lies for nearly two months.

The difference?

South Korea mourned its 200th coronavirus death yesterday.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence’s Indiana alone has more confirmed coronavirus deaths, 203, than all of South Korea.

THAT illustrates the lethality of Trump’s ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

DocBarrister

You probably don't want to read liberal journo's trashing Dem politicians' response to Corona then:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/nyre ... elays.html

[6ftstick]

Just how lethal has Trump’s incompetence become?

South Korea implemented a massive coronavirus testing program by early February, while Trump wallowed in denial and lies for nearly two months.

The difference?

South Korea mourned its 200th coronavirus death yesterday.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence’s Indiana alone has more confirmed coronavirus deaths, 203, than all of South Korea.

THAT illustrates the lethality of Trump’s ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

DocBarrister

1,500,830 cases globally and 87,469 deaths——THAT illustrates the lethality of Chinese Communists ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

Whether it is the Chinese Communists or their supporters on this forum, we cannot afford to countenance the ignorant and stupid to act upon their ignorance and stupidity.

[youthathletics]

https://www.stress.org/stanford-profess ... oronavirus

Called it weeks ago. The game is, after all the social distancing .....when it works, you'd have a bunch of people saying "see, I TOLD YOU this virus was no big deal".

I'm left wondering how many of these Americans wake up from successful open heart surgery and say "see? I'm fine. Obviously I didn't need the surgery in the first place".

Homer shares this brilliance.....

Plenty of people have believed this since early on....to include Fauci, Gupta, et al. as far back as 21-January. Your reply to the Stanford article, implies you also must have believed it, because you knew it was coming.....like Trump Heck, even Fauci admitted the numbers game yesterday/today, saying they will still be bad this week but far less than anticipated.

Nothing wrong with being cautious, it could have been worse, far worse....this was a productive dry-run exercise for what could be worse.

[RedFromMI]

Just how lethal has Trump’s incompetence become?

South Korea implemented a massive coronavirus testing program by early February, while Trump wallowed in denial and lies for nearly two months.

The difference?

South Korea mourned its 200th coronavirus death yesterday.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence’s Indiana alone has more confirmed coronavirus deaths, 203, than all of South Korea.

THAT illustrates the lethality of Trump’s ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

DocBarrister

You probably don't want to read liberal journo's trashing Dem politicians' response to Corona then:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/nyre ... elays.html

If Trump would have responded early as a competent leader, he would have pushed those Dem pols to do something. But no...

And BTW, if you consider the population difference - we would be at about 1200 deaths. But we are nearing 15K now, and are SURELY undercounting by quite a bit.

The whataboutism is dripping...who is the president?

[a fan]

I'm not in the "Why didn't Trump do more back in Feb" camp, and you know it. He did the best he could, just as Governors in other States who didn't shut down their States.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell if you're overreacting. Full stop. That's the STUPIDITY of the Stanford article. The ONLY way to "test" if we're overreacting is to do nothing, and hope America survives. This is logic that's even worse than Homer Simpson's.

No one, not even Trump, is suggesting we do nothing, and just resign to whatever happens.

[Peter Brown]

I'm not in the "Why didn't Trump do more back in Feb" camp, and you know it. He did the best he could, just as Governors in other States who didn't shut down their States.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell if you're overreacting. Full stop. That's the STUPIDITY of the Stanford article. The ONLY way to "test" if we're overreacting is to do nothing, and hope America survives. This is logic that's even worse than Homer Simpson's.

No one, not even Trump, is suggesting we do nothing, and just resign to whatever happens.

I feel nausea coming on...agreeing with a fan again!

Why can't the libs on this board exhibit a shred of nuance like a fan above? Is the hatred of Trump so intense as to deny any critical faculties?

[wgdsr]

I'm not in the "Why didn't Trump do more back in Feb" camp, and you know it. He did the best he could, just as Governors in other States who didn't shut down their States.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell if you're overreacting. Full stop. That's the STUPIDITY of the Stanford article. The ONLY way to "test" if we're overreacting is to do nothing, and hope America survives. This is logic that's even worse than Homer Simpson's.

No one, not even Trump, is suggesting we do nothing, and just resign to whatever happens.

I feel nausea coming on...agreeing with a fan again!

Why can't the libs on this board exhibit a shred of nuance like a fan above? Is the hatred of Trump so intense as to deny any critical faculties?

well said, a fan. the optics in press conferences in particular emphasize what seem to be just missed opportunities to do "better". and a lack of focus, direction, staying ahead.
but no one has put me in charge of handling a global pandemic, so my assessment could be way off that there were shots to have better outcomes. unless you do a monte carlo simulation, you'll never know. and we won't get the true economic/health impact of what we're doing now --- ever.

there is zero evidence any other recent leader would have done "better". whatever your better is.

next phase, if in fact we do slow this down, etc... has a decent chance of being easier. it also has a 10-30% chance of being multiples harder. right now, we're just staying home and throwing money at it we don't have. and overloading a couple sectors. what happens if we have to get execution right on multiple fronts (virus is persistently around the corner) all while trying to pull out of an unprecedented messy economic hole?

ok (wipes brow). i choose to be optimistic!!!

[DocBarrister]

South Korea, which is even more pro-big business than the United States, also worships science and innovation.

This is markedly different from Donald Trump and his supporters, who seem to worship instead their own ignorance, stupidity, racism, bigotry, and misogyny. Indeed, it is the lack of respect and appreciation for science, expertise, and data that led to the current lethality of the pandemic in the United States.

We see some of that on this forum, where folks with little or no education, training, experience, or understanding of science, medicine, or epidemiology are mouthing off like they’re the second coming of Louis Pasteur.

What we are witnessing now is the lethality of a lack of respect for science.

And then there is the case of South Korea, which has become the global gold standard on testing and keeping COVID-19 in check. But what I want to write about here is Seoul’s success at solving its face mask shortage.

After an initial mask crisis, the central government decided to intervene in production and distribution, writes E. Tammy Kim in the New York Times. By early March, the government was purchasing 80% of the national production of KF-94 masks, the equivalent of the American N95, from the nation’s 130 or so manufacturers (for comparison, think how the U.S. mask crisis might have been avoided if Trump had made robust use of the Defense Production Act).

I asked Alexander Vershbow, former U.S. ambassador to South Korea and distinguished visiting fellow at the University of Pennsylvania’s Perry World House, what were the keys to this process.

“In South Korea,” he replied, "there is close trust between the government and the chaebols (business conglomerates). Businesses are more mindful of the national interest, so they worked together to bend regulations on tests, and compete to produce the best tests and accelerate production.

“There was much more of a consensus on what needed to be done, and almost a worship of science and innovation. An educated public understood that a science-based approach was needed.”

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronav ... 00407.html

STUPID KILLS.

DocBarrister

[ggait]

It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell if you're overreacting. Full stop. That's the STUPIDITY of the Stanford article. The ONLY way to "test" if we're overreacting is to do nothing, and hope America survives.

Yup. You don't get to run your life as a double blind experiment. You have to decide today what you are going to do today. And you never get to see the alternatives.

Bottom line, the U.S. (44 deaths per 1M pop so far) is doing better than some (Spain 316 per pop; France 167; UK 105; Sweden 68).

And worse than others (Germany 26, Norway 19, Czech Republic 9 (go masks!), Finland 7, SK 4).

Lots of factors feed into that. Lots of folks in the US govt will be found to have contributed to a pretty big biff. But not an unprecedented biff, as the data above shows.

What is completely inexcuse-able, though, is Trump's visible, voluminous, rambling, BS-ing and minimizing. And how long he has kept it up in the face of increasing information. TBD how much that may have hurt -- most people don't listen to or rely on the guy. But it certainly didn't help and there is literally no forking reason for doing what he's done in public.

Trump sucks as a leader and a human being -- but I knew that years ago. I wouldn't hire him to manage a McDonalds franchise. So I'm not surprised by his current performance at all.

[Brooklyn]

hatred of Trump

hatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trump
hatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trump
hatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trumphatred of Trump

[wgdsr]

South Korea, which is even more pro-big business than the United States, also worships science and innovation.

This is markedly different from Donald Trump and his supporters, who seem to worship instead their own ignorance, stupidity, racism, bigotry, and misogyny. Indeed, it is the lack of respect and appreciation for science, expertise, and data that led to the current lethality of the pandemic in the United States.

We see some of that on this forum, where folks with little or no education, training, experience, or understanding of science, medicine, or epidemiology are mouthing off like they’re the second coming of Louis Pasteur.

What we are witnessing now is the lethality of a lack of respect for science.

DocBarrister

pretty comical coming from an attorney no less who's never played or coached lacrosse but has positioned himself as the ultimate authority 10s of 1000s of times over the last 15 years because he watches and stuff.

[DocBarrister]

South Korea, which is even more pro-big business than the United States, also worships science and innovation.

This is markedly different from Donald Trump and his supporters, who seem to worship instead their own ignorance, stupidity, racism, bigotry, and misogyny. Indeed, it is the lack of respect and appreciation for science, expertise, and data that led to the current lethality of the pandemic in the United States.

We see some of that on this forum, where folks with little or no education, training, experience, or understanding of science, medicine, or epidemiology are mouthing off like they’re the second coming of Louis Pasteur.

What we are witnessing now is the lethality of a lack of respect for science.

DocBarrister

pretty comical coming from an attorney no less who's never played or coached lacrosse but has positioned himself as the ultimate authority 10s of 1000s of times over the last 15 years because he watches and stuff.

Lacrosse is just a game. I’m just a fan rooting for my team. That was all in fun.

We’re discussing a global pandemic that has already killed at least 90,000 worldwide despite some of the most extreme public health interventions in all of history.

Which makes your comparison pretty stupid, right?

DocBarrister

[Brooklyn]

Just how lethal has Trump’s incompetence become?

South Korea implemented a massive coronavirus testing program by early February, while Trump wallowed in denial and lies for nearly two months.

The difference?

South Korea mourned its 200th coronavirus death yesterday.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence’s Indiana alone has more confirmed coronavirus deaths, 203, than all of South Korea.

THAT illustrates the lethality of Trump’s ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

DocBarrister

1,500,830 cases globally and 87,469 deaths——THAT illustrates the lethality of Chinese Communists ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence.

Whether it is the Chinese Communists or their supporters on this forum, we cannot afford to countenance the ignorant and stupid to act upon their ignorance and stupidity.

Kindly identify those "supporters". You wouldn't happen to be referring to the idiot who gave money to ZTE while manufacturing his MAGA hats & T shirts along with white shirts and ties in China?

[wgdsr]

South Korea, which is even more pro-big business than the United States, also worships science and innovation.

This is markedly different from Donald Trump and his supporters, who seem to worship instead their own ignorance, stupidity, racism, bigotry, and misogyny. Indeed, it is the lack of respect and appreciation for science, expertise, and data that led to the current lethality of the pandemic in the United States.

We see some of that on this forum, where folks with little or no education, training, experience, or understanding of science, medicine, or epidemiology are mouthing off like they’re the second coming of Louis Pasteur.

What we are witnessing now is the lethality of a lack of respect for science.

DocBarrister

pretty comical coming from an attorney no less who's never played or coached lacrosse but has positioned himself as the ultimate authority 10s of 1000s of times over the last 15 years because he watches and stuff.

Lacrosse is just a game. I’m just a fan rooting for my team. That was all in fun.

We’re discussing a global pandemic that has already killed at least 90,000 worldwide despite some of the most extreme public health interventions in all of history.

Which makes your comparison pretty stupid, right?

DocBarrister

nah. holds form. you think you know everything. anyone that's not in your worship camp for all your great takes gets to be called juvenile names and trashed.
sounds pretty familiar, no? what time is your press conference?

[tech37]

I agree that SD needs to go through end of April. But we should be testing now to get people to start thinking of May 1 as 'back to work', which relaly will be May 4th.

Pete -- agree that it is all about when the new tools are going to be available.

Without scalpels, you are stuck using a chainsaw. Assume everyone is infected. So isolate 100% of the people.

With scalpels, you can isolate the 5% or less who need to be isolated. And the 95% can mostly go back to the new normal. TBD if we get the tools by May 1, June 1, July 1...

What do y'all think the new normal is going to be? My prediction:

1. Masks and gloves when out in public.
2. Thermometer scans when entering buildings or stores.
3. Restaurants open but with the tables spaced widely apart.
4. No big public events with several thousand people attending for the rest of 2020. The NFL season will be played, but just on TV with empty stands.

I think that is fairly optimistic. Could be more restricted than that -- like Pete's Scarlet C badges.

Way too pessimistic. You boys don't appreciate the human brain in spite of thousands of years of evidence. When challenged, the human mind thinks of things you never thought could occur.

Some guy right now has already figured this out...we just haven't read about it yet.

I like the temperature scan...could be new SOP for businesses. Everyone is scanned when entering their workplace (temp scanning might be done automatically as you pass through a doorway similar to security scan booths in airports). If fever is detected, boom, you're tested immediately. Of course the testing efficiencies have a long way to go before this would be reality.

[DocBarrister]

I'm not in the "Why didn't Trump do more back in Feb" camp, and you know it. He did the best he could, just as Governors in other States who didn't shut down their States.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell if you're overreacting. Full stop. That's the STUPIDITY of the Stanford article. The ONLY way to "test" if we're overreacting is to do nothing, and hope America survives. This is logic that's even worse than Homer Simpson's.

No one, not even Trump, is suggesting we do nothing, and just resign to whatever happens.

This isn’t true. There are plenty of analytical methods that can be employed to assess and estimate the efficacy of any interventions taken. One thing that this pandemic has done is generate a lot of data and a lot of very different interventions have been taken in many different nations and locales. Interventions have also changed over time.

So, based on constantly incoming data from around the world, one can estimate the transmission, morbidity, and mortality rates for various subpopulations around the world. We can estimate what doing nothing does because, well, much of the United States did nothing for a prolonged period of time. This data can be incorporated into various models to estimate outcomes, estimate the efficacy of various interventions, and guide future interventions. As more data come in, these models will be frequently adjusted.

The data from this pandemic will be studied for decades. One day, we will have some fairly reliable and valid estimates of how many “excess” American deaths were caused by Trump’s inaction.

For now, we have rough comparators with other nations like South Korea and Germany. We can also compare regional differences in actions (e.g., California vs. NY vs. GA). Sure, there are differences in demographics, health insurance coverage, population density, etc., but these factors can be adjusted For in any quantitative analyses.

My point is, scientists, physicians, and epidemiologists have a lot more tools in their chest than most of you know. If the politicians would just listen to them more, we would be in a much better place than we are in now.

It is absolutely untrue that we could not have been “South Korea”. We absolutely could have been. They followed the science. We did not. That’s going to cost the United States tens of thousands of lives ... people who did not have to die.

DocBarrister