Ivy League

[thetruth]

Sowers situation update
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michaelsower ... 24/photo/1

[Typical Lax Dad]

Sowers situation update
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michaelsower ... 24/photo/1

Thanks for posting that.

[calourie]

Not all Ivies have the same withdrawal or leave of absence requirements and rules. For example, the rules/requirements at Yale and Princeton are stricter than they are at Cornell.
Yale - http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/academic-r ... statement/
Princeton - https://ua.princeton.edu/contents/acade ... nstatement
Cornell - https://as.cornell.edu/leave-absence-and-withdrawal

Very informative post Truth. I read the Yale guidelines. They are very clear, and they make it look doubtful that any seniors on the team would qualify for another term if they were to withdraw at this late date. Perhaps there is some discussion among those in authority of bending the guidelines due to the extraordinary circumstances, but for now I'm going to assume we have seen the last of this very talented and accomplished group of seniors. It would seem the future is a bit cloudy on a number of fronts for many institutions of higher learning at this moment, but I would guess Yale feels pretty secure about leaving the future of it's lacrosse program in the hands of Andy Shay and the returning underclassmen and recruits that he has already signed up to carry on once things have returned to normal .

[thetruth]

All of these kids will be fine regardless of whether or not they play another year. So will all of the Ivy League programs. The show will go on and will only get better in the future for everyone.
Great leadership is accepting adversity and dealing with it. Whether it be an institution or individual. The Ivies consider themselves the leaders in higher education with the future world leaders populating their campuses. Leaders don't need "do-overs" or rule changes, or complain about life being unfair. They just man up and deal with it when misfortune comes their way.
The institutions that look the rewrite the rules to pamper a pretty entitled group aren't where you are going to find your leaders, present or future.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Not all Ivies have the same withdrawal or leave of absence requirements and rules. For example, the rules/requirements at Yale and Princeton are stricter than they are at Cornell.
Yale - http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/academic-r ... statement/
Princeton - https://ua.princeton.edu/contents/acade ... nstatement
Cornell - https://as.cornell.edu/leave-absence-and-withdrawal

Very informative post Truth. I read the Yale guidelines. They are very clear, and they make it look doubtful that any seniors on the team would qualify for another term if they were to withdraw at this late date. Perhaps there is some discussion among those in authority of bending the guidelines due to the extraordinary circumstances, but for now I'm going to assume we have seen the last of this very talented and accomplished group of seniors. It would seem the future is a bit cloudy on a number of fronts for many institutions of higher learning at this moment, but I would guess Yale feels pretty secure about leaving the future of it's lacrosse program in the hands of Andy Shay and the returning underclassmen and recruits that he has already signed up to carry on once things have returned to normal .

I read the Yale guideline. It’s very stringent. 15 days into the semester seems to be the trip wire.

[Typical Lax Dad]

During a national health crisis like we have not seen since 1918, this is a terrible decision, elitist to the core. Screw the seniors and the athletes. Archaic, just like when they resisted Ivy League Tournaments and postseason NCAA participation... and then they did.

Do the one time exemption and let the graduate seniors play.

I don’t see it being practical for graduate students. I was thinking so long as students are withdrawing within the school guidelines, they are able to retain their eligibility. Anything harsher would seem to be punitive. It’s like saying, you can withdraw and come back and even though you have NCAA eligibility, you can’t participate. The graduate student rule is a different hurdle. Most players will graduate and move on anyway.

[Trumansburger]

As has been alluded to by several posters, it's not just a matter of withdrawing and coming back the following spring. The following news release from 2012 outlines what happened with Rob Pannell when he was granted a 5th year due to injury:

8/2/2012 4:30:00 PM - Men's Lacrosse
Rob Pannell Granted Fifth-Year Eligibility Waiver

ITHACA, N.Y. – The Cornell Department of Athletics and Physical Education has announced that senior men's lacrosse player Rob Pannell has been granted a fifth-year eligibility waiver through the Ivy League Office. Pannell will rejoin the Big Red men's lacrosse team when he returns to Cornell in the spring 2013 semester to complete his degree requirements.

Under Ivy rules, eligibility beyond four calendar years requires approval of the Executive Director. Among other factors, approval is contingent upon the student having an academic enrollment plan that is approved by institutional academic officials. Pannell worked with university advisors to develop an academic plan that would allow him to complete remaining degree requirements, and complete additional coursework that supports his career goals, during the spring 2013 semester

Pannell stated: "In evaluating my future, my family and I decided that there are many academic opportunities at Cornell that would better prepare me for a job, so I have chosen to pursue them. I adjusted my academic plan with the University and will return to Cornell in Spring 2013 to complete degree requirements, fulfill a second Applied Economics and Management specialization in strategy, and play lacrosse. In the end, there were many other options out there, but Cornell is home to me and I want to finish what I started.”

5th year contingent on Ivy League Executive Director approving an academic enrollment plan may be a big hurdle.


...

[QuakerSouth]

I read an old release someone posted last night about the Pannell sitch. He said he wasn't able to keep up with the coursework because he was seeing doctors, and he had to miss an exam...something like that. I'll take him at his word, but it sounds like he had a lot of the bases covered, meaning, it wasn't just because of the injury, but how the injury negatively impacted his academic journey.

That's the kind of thing the committee is looking for. He had worked with Cornell to recraft an academic avenue that would offer him enhanced opportunities. So it wasn't just coming back because he missed a year of lacrosse. It was because the injury caused him to miss classes, exams, etc as he was seeing doctors. His appeal coverall the bases.

With all that, remember, there was a lot of grumbling around the League. This was the League's best player petitioning and getting a redo. Other teams didn't like it. I think the League office took a lot of heat for that decision, and maybe learned something. That something is no exceptions. Period.

That decision in 2012 certainly had some impact on the recent decision.

Anyone know how long the policy of no grad students playing has been in place? It wasn't always this way.

[thetruth]

Quaker, good question. I just thought no-grad students was always the rule, but I'm sure that it wasn't always that way given how long these schools have been around. Problem with allowing grad students now is that the grad schools at each of the Ivies is vastly different. Harvard, Columbia, Cornell and Penn probably have the most robust programs and dwarf those of Brown and Dartmouth. Not really equitable to allow grad students eligibility.

I have to say, the past 24 hours have not reflected well on Princeton and Yale, and possibly the Ivy League office. We've had the most prominent player in the League (and maybe the country) back track on saying he withdrew from school while the Yale AD is tweeting things that seem to be at conflict with what the league office announced just hours before. Not a good look for anyone.

[faircornell]

As I recall, and without checking, I think that the rule came into effect in the 1980's (?) when a Cornell football running back competed as a grad student and performed very well. My recollections stand to be corrected if they are flawed.

[laxfan1313]

As I recall, and without checking, I think that the rule came into effect in the 1980's (?) when a Cornell football running back competed as a grad student and performed very well. My recollections stand to be corrected if they are flawed.

My understanding (please forgive any slight inaccuracies) goes like this: Joe Holland is the son of the great Jerome "Brud" Holland, the first African American to play football at Cornell and one of the most accomplished Cornell grads ever. Joe played one year at Michigan, then transferred to Cornell. He had to sit out his Sophomore year, so he played Junior year (Fall 1976) and Senior year (Fall 1977). He graduated with one year of eligibility left, so he pursued his Masters degree at Cornell and played football in Fall 1978 as a grad student. That season, Joe was selected to AP All-America 3rd team, UPI All-America honorable mention; AP All-East, UPI All-East and ECAC Div. I 1st teams; 2nd in nation in rushing (1376 yds.) behind Heisman Trophy winner Billy Sims; also ranked 2nd in nation in scoring (l6 TDs) behind Sims. Unanimous All-Ivy 1st team '78. Totaled 1213 yds. in 7 Ivy games to become 2nd Ivy player ever to gain over 1000 yards in 1 season. The other Ivy League teams were unhappy with Joe's accomplishments and voted to ban future athletes from competing as grad students. It's still petty & unfair, over 40 years later IMHO. Athletic competition is an integral part of the Ivy League experience the same way musical performance or drama involvement are. The Ivy League should at minimum permit Seniors in the current dilemma withdraw without having to jump through any hoops and come back next Spring.

[Typical Lax Dad]

As I recall, and without checking, I think that the rule came into effect in the 1980's (?) when a Cornell football running back competed as a grad student and performed very well. My recollections stand to be corrected if they are flawed.

My understanding (please forgive any slight inaccuracies) goes like this: Joe Holland is the son of the great Jerome "Brud" Holland, the first African American to play football at Cornell and one of the most accomplished Cornell grads ever. Joe played one year at Michigan, then transferred to Cornell. He had to sit out his Sophomore year, so he played Junior year (Fall 1976) and Senior year (Fall 1977). He graduated with one year of eligibility left, so he pursued his Masters degree at Cornell and played football in Fall 1978 as a grad student. That season, Joe was selected to AP All-America 3rd team, UPI All-America honorable mention; AP All-East, UPI All-East and ECAC Div. I 1st teams; 2nd in nation in rushing (1376 yds.) behind Heisman Trophy winner Billy Sims; also ranked 2nd in nation in scoring (l6 TDs) behind Sims. Unanimous All-Ivy 1st team '78. Totaled 1213 yds. in 7 Ivy games to become 2nd Ivy player ever to gain over 1000 yards in 1 season. The other Ivy League teams were unhappy with Joe's accomplishments and voted to ban future athletes from competing as grad students. It's still petty & unfair, over 40 years later IMHO. Athletic competition is an integral part of the Ivy League experience the same way musical performance or drama involvement are. The Ivy League should at minimum permit Seniors in the current dilemma withdraw without having to jump through any hoops and come back next Spring.

The withdrawal option seems reasonable. Particularly if it is within the stated policy. Yale could petition for relief. Not sure where Dartmouth and Brown are relative to withdrawal policy.

[faircornell]

Yes, 1313, I believe that is correct. The rule was instituted shortly after (I believe in the early 80s, but possiblity in 1979). It was colloquially called the "Joe Holland Rule" that prevented grad students from competing in Ivy sports.

[RedIvy]

As I recall, and without checking, I think that the rule came into effect in the 1980's (?) when a Cornell football running back competed as a grad student and performed very well. My recollections stand to be corrected if they are flawed.

My understanding (please forgive any slight inaccuracies) goes like this: Joe Holland is the son of the great Jerome "Brud" Holland, the first African American to play football at Cornell and one of the most accomplished Cornell grads ever. Joe played one year at Michigan, then transferred to Cornell. He had to sit out his Sophomore year, so he played Junior year (Fall 1976) and Senior year (Fall 1977). He graduated with one year of eligibility left, so he pursued his Masters degree at Cornell and played football in Fall 1978 as a grad student. That season, Joe was selected to AP All-America 3rd team, UPI All-America honorable mention; AP All-East, UPI All-East and ECAC Div. I 1st teams; 2nd in nation in rushing (1376 yds.) behind Heisman Trophy winner Billy Sims; also ranked 2nd in nation in scoring (l6 TDs) behind Sims. Unanimous All-Ivy 1st team '78. Totaled 1213 yds. in 7 Ivy games to become 2nd Ivy player ever to gain over 1000 yards in 1 season. The other Ivy League teams were unhappy with Joe's accomplishments and voted to ban future athletes from competing as grad students. It's still petty & unfair, over 40 years later IMHO. Athletic competition is an integral part of the Ivy League experience the same way musical performance or drama involvement are. The Ivy League should at minimum permit Seniors in the current dilemma withdraw without having to jump through any hoops and come back next Spring.

The withdrawal option seems reasonable. Particularly if it is within the stated policy. Yale could petition for relief. Not sure where Dartmouth and Brown are relative to withdrawal policy.

Seems like an unfortunate consequence for many players to withdraw this semester and to skip semesters over the next 3 years. Hope the league can provide some reasonable alternative.

Is it within NCAA rules to play as a ninth semester undergrad who has previously earned enough credits to have received an undergraduate degree? At The University of Rochester there is something called a fifth year scholar/fellowship. This has nothing to do with athletics but provides a tuition free year to high achieving students to pursue classes that they were unable to take during their first 4 years due to the focus on classes required for their undergraduate major. It’s really great for engineering students who can take classes in the arts or fulfill requirements needed to apply and research medical school options. I’m not sure if these fifth year students can participate in athletics at UR but it would be interesting to understand if something like this could provide a middle ground for all the Ivies, maybe they pay, maybe they pay room and board only.... maybe they need to show an unfulfilled opportunity. If they pay for room and board not sure it has that much impact on other students especially considering most would likely live off campus.

Someone who misses out on the opportunity to set school/league/NCAA records like Sowers, misses out on more than just the experience, it’s not the same loss for everyone (IMO).

I’m sure there are a bunch of holes in this so let them fly.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

As I recall, and without checking, I think that the rule came into effect in the 1980's (?) when a Cornell football running back competed as a grad student and performed very well. My recollections stand to be corrected if they are flawed.

My understanding (please forgive any slight inaccuracies) goes like this: Joe Holland is the son of the great Jerome "Brud" Holland, the first African American to play football at Cornell and one of the most accomplished Cornell grads ever. Joe played one year at Michigan, then transferred to Cornell. He had to sit out his Sophomore year, so he played Junior year (Fall 1976) and Senior year (Fall 1977). He graduated with one year of eligibility left, so he pursued his Masters degree at Cornell and played football in Fall 1978 as a grad student. That season, Joe was selected to AP All-America 3rd team, UPI All-America honorable mention; AP All-East, UPI All-East and ECAC Div. I 1st teams; 2nd in nation in rushing (1376 yds.) behind Heisman Trophy winner Billy Sims; also ranked 2nd in nation in scoring (l6 TDs) behind Sims. Unanimous All-Ivy 1st team '78. Totaled 1213 yds. in 7 Ivy games to become 2nd Ivy player ever to gain over 1000 yards in 1 season. The other Ivy League teams were unhappy with Joe's accomplishments and voted to ban future athletes from competing as grad students. It's still petty & unfair, over 40 years later IMHO. Athletic competition is an integral part of the Ivy League experience the same way musical performance or drama involvement are. The Ivy League should at minimum permit Seniors in the current dilemma withdraw without having to jump through any hoops and come back next Spring.

The withdrawal option seems reasonable. Particularly if it is within the stated policy. Yale could petition for relief. Not sure where Dartmouth and Brown are relative to withdrawal policy.

Seems like an unfortunate consequence for many players to withdraw this semester and to skip semesters over the next 3 years. Hope the league can provide some reasonable alternative.

Is it within NCAA rules to play as a ninth semester undergrad who has previously earned enough credits to have received an undergraduate degree? At The University of Rochester there is something called a fifth year scholar/fellowship. This has nothing to do with athletics but provides a tuition free year to high achieving students to pursue classes that they were unable to take during their first 4 years due to the focus on classes required for their undergraduate major. It’s really great for engineering students who can take classes in the arts or fulfill requirements needed to apply and research medical school options. I’m not sure if these fifth year students can participate in athletics at UR but it would be interesting to understand if something like this could provide a middle ground for all the Ivies, maybe they pay, maybe they pay room and board only.... maybe they need to show an unfulfilled opportunity. If they pay for room and board not sure it has that much impact on other students especially considering most would likely live off campus.

Someone who misses out on the opportunity to set school/league/NCAA records like Sowers, misses out on more than just the experience, it’s not the same loss for everyone (IMO).

I’m sure there are a bunch of holes in this so let them fly.....

My belief is that most underclassmen won’t take the withdrawal option down the road. Heading off to graduate school seems more practical. You may get some injury withdrawals but I just don’t see it being widespread.

[RedIvy]

I agree on undergrads with exceptions being players that may be close to setting some type of record that a partial season left them short of. Undergrads have much more time to adjust to this loss than seniors but likely need to consider all current players similar to the overall NCAA ruling.

Also job market might not be so great over the next year..... hopefully picture will change for undergrads.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I agree on undergrads with exceptions being players that may be close to setting some type of record that a partial season left them short of. Undergrads have much more time to adjust to this loss than seniors but likely need to consider all current players similar to the overall NCAA ruling.

The withdrawal policy should be applied. It’s already on the books. It seems reasonable. An extenuating circumstance is the “distance learning model”. It’s no way to complete your senior year. Seniors should all be allowed to withdraw and comeback for that reason alone.

[RedIvy]

I agree on undergrads with exceptions being players that may be close to setting some type of record that a partial season left them short of. Undergrads have much more time to adjust to this loss than seniors but likely need to consider all current players similar to the overall NCAA ruling.

The withdrawal policy should be applied. It’s already on the books. It seems reasonable. An extenuating circumstance is the “distance learning model”. It’s no way to complete your senior year. Seniors should all be allowed to withdraw and comeback for that reason alone.

I’m not a fan on forcing withdrawal, seems to make more sense to create a clean avenue with enough time for proper consideration and that can be similar and useful for all schools in the league.

[RedIvy]

Also fifth year would make it more evenly accessible if it’s tuition free.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Also fifth year would make it more evenly accessible if it’s tuition free.

I just don't see graduate students being allowed to participate. As for tuition, however aid is normally handled should be the standard.