I know this decision appears attractive, particularly to seniors who missed the last half of their final collegiate season, but I think it is a mistake on several fronts.
First, there is going to be a pig-in-the-snake for the next several years until all the granted classes pass through the pipeline. Larger rostered teams = more difficult / fewer opportunities to play. Or fewer recruitments / more cuts per class if coaches want to keep the traditional roster sizes. I know for the number of seniors we are actually talking about the effect to many schools could be minimal, or none at all. But at some schools, where seniors might return to in force or transfer to in force (if accepted), it could be a problem.
Second, assuming seniors take the expected path and graduate this year on schedule their opportunities to play next year would be at schools that offer post-graduate education. As a poster mentioned in a previous post, there are just a handful that offer meaningful graduate education opportunities. I imagine Lars, Breschi and Danowski, plus a few more, are salivating. Wonder how their underclassman are feeling.
Third, meaningful graduate programs (law school, medical school, business school, etc.) at higher universities are not a walk in the park, nor are they prone to the undergraduate adjustments and creative scheduling to allow full-time sport participation.
Fourth, take the case of a senior who was expected to graduate this spring and enter the job market, and now either elects to drop classes in order to have another year of undergraduate schooling or apply to a graduate program he wasn’t previously planning on attending. Let’s say that person is modestly paying $25K in school related fees, and also modestly say that person is giving up a $50K first year salary. A swing of $75K. Take that $75K, an invested rate of return of 5%, and over 30 years it’s worth $325K. Is playing 15 more lacrosse games worth $325K thirty years from now? Unless you are a superstar senior whose future employment may be tied to lacrosse, I imagine the smarter move would be to move on.
Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
-
- Posts: 6381
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:01 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
The rich will get richer in the near term for teams who have kids stick around.
In the longer term, the reduced recruiting classes will likely happen to all schools. Expect good talent to be pushed away/down to lower D1 schools and into D2, D3, and juco.
Expect more parity a few years from now.
In the longer term, the reduced recruiting classes will likely happen to all schools. Expect good talent to be pushed away/down to lower D1 schools and into D2, D3, and juco.
Expect more parity a few years from now.
-
- Posts: 983
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:21 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Thank you for the thoughtful analysis, CC & PicLax. I completely agree that this is unlikely to have a meaningful negative impact on current college athletes and HS recruits. There are very few full rides in college lacrosse and It is simply too expensive for parents to pay for an extra year of college just to enjoy another season. It is also unrealistic to think that someone could play D1 lacrosse at a high level while in a top 20 professional degree program. I barely had time for an occasional quick run or gym visit during my first year of law school B-school and med school are even worse. The lone exception I could see to 5th years is at big state universities where an athlete thinks they could win a natty while getting a "softer" grad degree like a one-year masters in econ or liberal arts. UNC, UVA, Md, OSU, & PSU could benefit from retaining seniors and attracting 5th year transfers. Pricing, admissions and grad program options are much friendlier than at Ivies, Patriot League, Duke, etc.
There is also another factor that hasn't received much airtime -- PG years. If '21 and '22 HS recruits are truly worried about their diminished opportunities, they would be wise to also lob in an application to a school that offers post grad programs. Schools like Exeter, Andover, New England West schools and and Lawrenceville enjoy big endowments and generous aid budgets. What's wrong with grabbing an extra year of maturity, academic foundation and lacrosse at a high level? The cheaper option is a gap year in which a player continues with their club team while gaining a little real world experience prior to college. Again, many upsides to this plan including some college savings. These pre-college options may not completely offset the additional roster spots consumed by the 5th year collegiate athletes, but it will mitigate to some degree. At the end of the day, if a HS athlete can't get recruited in their original class or their re-class, then a D1 career probably wasn't meant to be.
There is also another factor that hasn't received much airtime -- PG years. If '21 and '22 HS recruits are truly worried about their diminished opportunities, they would be wise to also lob in an application to a school that offers post grad programs. Schools like Exeter, Andover, New England West schools and and Lawrenceville enjoy big endowments and generous aid budgets. What's wrong with grabbing an extra year of maturity, academic foundation and lacrosse at a high level? The cheaper option is a gap year in which a player continues with their club team while gaining a little real world experience prior to college. Again, many upsides to this plan including some college savings. These pre-college options may not completely offset the additional roster spots consumed by the 5th year collegiate athletes, but it will mitigate to some degree. At the end of the day, if a HS athlete can't get recruited in their original class or their re-class, then a D1 career probably wasn't meant to be.
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
I'm looking at the rosters for some 2020 men's lacrosse teams.
UNC: 2 redshirt freshmen
Duke: 3 grad students
Michigan: 4 grad students
Penn State: 5 redshirt seniors, 1 redshirt sophomore, 2 redshirt freshmen
Maryland: 1 redshirt sophomore, 1 redshirt freshman
Ohio State: 2 redshirt seniors, 1 redshirt junior, 1 redshirt freshman
Delaware: 4 grad students
Syracuse: 5 redshirt seniors, 6 redshirt juniors, 3 redshirt sophomores, 4 redshirt freshmen
Georgetown: 1 grad student
Villanova: 1 grad student, 1 redshirt senior, 1 redshirt junior
I'm not sure why these players decided to redshirt, but it seems that a number of lacrosse players are not in a rush to graduate in the customary 4 years and move onto the next phase of their lives.
Could this a rough indication of the future popularity of the new 5th year exceptions?
UNC: 2 redshirt freshmen
Duke: 3 grad students
Michigan: 4 grad students
Penn State: 5 redshirt seniors, 1 redshirt sophomore, 2 redshirt freshmen
Maryland: 1 redshirt sophomore, 1 redshirt freshman
Ohio State: 2 redshirt seniors, 1 redshirt junior, 1 redshirt freshman
Delaware: 4 grad students
Syracuse: 5 redshirt seniors, 6 redshirt juniors, 3 redshirt sophomores, 4 redshirt freshmen
Georgetown: 1 grad student
Villanova: 1 grad student, 1 redshirt senior, 1 redshirt junior
I'm not sure why these players decided to redshirt, but it seems that a number of lacrosse players are not in a rush to graduate in the customary 4 years and move onto the next phase of their lives.
Could this a rough indication of the future popularity of the new 5th year exceptions?
Last edited by njfanlax on Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Not to open up a dangerous can of worms...but can any insider here offer some better clarity on the Duke 2007 Roster configuration from a scholarship perspective?
Duke 2007 is the only example that exists of this kindve situation, and without cross-referencing a lot, we know that a large chunk of the 2006 seniors came back for 2007, AND I think all the Class of 2006 HS Signees made it too. Meaning Duke's 2007 roster at 12.6 scholarships had some incredible accounting done behind the scenes.
My guess is that the 2006 seniors that came back for 2007 all got nice grad school $ that covered it, so they really didnt factor much into the 12.6 at all, but would be very curious to hear now that we're 13 years after the fact how that was put together.
Duke 2007 is the only example that exists of this kindve situation, and without cross-referencing a lot, we know that a large chunk of the 2006 seniors came back for 2007, AND I think all the Class of 2006 HS Signees made it too. Meaning Duke's 2007 roster at 12.6 scholarships had some incredible accounting done behind the scenes.
My guess is that the 2006 seniors that came back for 2007 all got nice grad school $ that covered it, so they really didnt factor much into the 12.6 at all, but would be very curious to hear now that we're 13 years after the fact how that was put together.
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
10 of Syracuse redshirts were medical redshirts with season ending injuriesnjfanlax wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:10 pm I'm looking at the rosters for some 2020 men's lacrosse teams.
UNC: 2 redshirt freshmen
Duke: 3 grad students
Michigan: 4 grad students
Penn State: 5 redshirt seniors, 1 redshirt sophomore, 2 redshirt freshmen
Maryland: 1 redshirt sophomore, 1 redshirt freshman
Ohio State: 2 redshirt seniors, 1 redshirt junior, 1 redshirt freshman
Delaware: 4 grad students
Syracuse: 5 redshirt seniors, 6 redshirt juniors, 3 redshirt sophomores, 4 redshirt freshmen
Georgetown: 1 grad student
Villanova: 1 grad student, 1 redshirt senior, 1 redshirt junior
I'm not sure why these players decided to redshirt, but it seems that a number of lacrosse players are not in a rush to graduate in the customary 4 years and move onto the next phase of their lives.
Could this a rough indication of the future popularity of the new 5th year exceptions?
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
So if these are medical redshirts and there are a maximum of 12.6 scholarships/team, aren't these players basically paying extra to be able to play an extra year?
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Yes they are all paying $ to play the extra year. Even the Sowers situation is remarkable because he/his family clearly paid a bundle for schoolwork that will now be thrown out the window. that's the world in partial scholarship sports.
- youthathletics
- Posts: 15849
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
-
- Posts: 34133
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Yes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
“I wish you would!”
- youthathletics
- Posts: 15849
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Personally, I do not like it, but will not judge his/their decision. Chasing stats or a natty.....that is more ego type stuff. He has already proven himself, shown the world he is great....i do not see where the juice is worth the squeeze. Maybe it buys him another year to see how the pro-league shakes out, which could provide a more lucrative payout....assuming he stays healthy? Good luck to him, great player....but lacrosse is means to an end. Maybe there is PU value? Seems he'd sit out his fall term? Maybe he fails all his current 2020 spring term classes and makes them up?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:55 pmYes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
From the PU website: The Academic Year
All undergraduates who plan to matriculate for either the fall term or the full academic year are required to complete Academic Year Sign-In online at the beginning of the fall term at a time determined by the registrar. Students who plan to resume their studies in the spring term after a leave of absence or academic required withdrawal must complete Academic Year Sign-In at the beginning of the spring term. A student who, without an approved excuse, fails to register at the designated time incurs a fine of $75.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
-
- Posts: 34133
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
He will be fine. He’s not the first Ivy League player to withdraw in order to play 4 seasons of lacrosse and he won’t be the last. It’s a personal decision.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:10 pmPersonally, I do not like it, but will not judge his/their decision. Chasing stats or a natty.....that is more ego type stuff. He has already proven himself, shown the world he is great....i do not see where the juice is worth the squeeze. Maybe it buys him another year to see how the pro-league shakes out, which could provide a more lucrative payout....assuming he stays healthy? Good luck to him, great player....but lacrosse is means to an end. Maybe there is PU value? Seems he'd sit out his fall term? Maybe he fails all his current 2020 spring term classes and makes them up?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:55 pmYes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
From the PU website: The Academic Year
All undergraduates who plan to matriculate for either the fall term or the full academic year are required to complete Academic Year Sign-In online at the beginning of the fall term at a time determined by the registrar. Students who plan to resume their studies in the spring term after a leave of absence or academic required withdrawal must complete Academic Year Sign-In at the beginning of the spring term. A student who, without an approved excuse, fails to register at the designated time incurs a fine of $75.
“I wish you would!”
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Sounds like OSU told the Spring sport Coaches they could bring back their Sr.
https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/conferenc ... ty-tucker/
https://www.si.com/college/ohiostate/fo ... e-athletes
https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/conferenc ... ty-tucker/
https://www.si.com/college/ohiostate/fo ... e-athletes
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Xxxxxxx
Last edited by xxxxxxx on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
I get your point, but there’s something else at work here too. You only get one change to play college lax. That’s one chance. That opportunity will not come around again. Ever. So if you love the sport and you can work all of the other ends, you go for it.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:10 pmPersonally, I do not like it, but will not judge his/their decision. Chasing stats or a natty.....that is more ego type stuff. He has already proven himself, shown the world he is great....i do not see where the juice is worth the squeeze. Maybe it buys him another year to see how the pro-league shakes out, which could provide a more lucrative payout....assuming he stays healthy? Good luck to him, great player....but lacrosse is means to an end. Maybe there is PU value? Seems he'd sit out his fall term? Maybe he fails all his current 2020 spring term classes and makes them up?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:55 pmYes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
From the PU website: The Academic Year
All undergraduates who plan to matriculate for either the fall term or the full academic year are required to complete Academic Year Sign-In online at the beginning of the fall term at a time determined by the registrar. Students who plan to resume their studies in the spring term after a leave of absence or academic required withdrawal must complete Academic Year Sign-In at the beginning of the spring term. A student who, without an approved excuse, fails to register at the designated time incurs a fine of $75.
Last edited by Ketch on Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
- youthathletics
- Posts: 15849
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Yup, and that’s just fine too, go for it. I was just speaking to the pragmatic side of the choice and our sport.Ketch wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:15 pmI get your point, but there’s something else at work here too. You only get one change to play college lax. That’s once chance. That opportunity will not come around again. Ever. So if you love the sport and you can work all of the other ends, you go for it.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:10 pmPersonally, I do not like it, but will not judge his/their decision. Chasing stats or a natty.....that is more ego type stuff. He has already proven himself, shown the world he is great....i do not see where the juice is worth the squeeze. Maybe it buys him another year to see how the pro-league shakes out, which could provide a more lucrative payout....assuming he stays healthy? Good luck to him, great player....but lacrosse is means to an end. Maybe there is PU value? Seems he'd sit out his fall term? Maybe he fails all his current 2020 spring term classes and makes them up?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:55 pmYes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
From the PU website: The Academic Year
All undergraduates who plan to matriculate for either the fall term or the full academic year are required to complete Academic Year Sign-In online at the beginning of the fall term at a time determined by the registrar. Students who plan to resume their studies in the spring term after a leave of absence or academic required withdrawal must complete Academic Year Sign-In at the beginning of the spring term. A student who, without an approved excuse, fails to register at the designated time incurs a fine of $75.
I’ll be cheering for him xxxxxxx, I certainly was not judging their decision, sorry if it came across that way.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
I would think withdrawing would be frowned upon by the NCAA. I would not think they would honor additional eligibility requests from students just chasing lacrosse .... and the Princeton/ Sowers case makes that obvious.
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
NCAA is giving everyone an extra year and you have 5 to play 4 in a sport. The Ivies provide the guidelines for players in their league in how they utilize it. What Sowers is doing has been going on for years and their are numerous examples of it across the league in all sports (many in football and Pannell the most high profile in lacrosse). So the NCAA won't frown on it and neither will the Ivy League since it has been their rule for some time.
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
Chasing a natty isn't ego stuff, that's all about team and program achievement. He is not worried about proving himself. He probably feels he has unfinished business with a team he loves. Who can fault someone for wanting to return to have another season with your best friends and "run out of that tunnel" one more time? This post is entirely focused on one's possibly selfish motivations (stats, PLL payout?!). Give me a freaking break. Sowers is a world class player and person. He wants to play another season with his team because this one was cut short. There are no ulterior motives here. Go judge this kid somewhere else. Ask anyone in the know and they'll tell you his love for the game and work ethic is as pure as they come.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:10 pmPersonally, I do not like it, but will not judge his/their decision. Chasing stats or a natty.....that is more ego type stuff. He has already proven himself, shown the world he is great....i do not see where the juice is worth the squeeze. Maybe it buys him another year to see how the pro-league shakes out, which could provide a more lucrative payout....assuming he stays healthy? Good luck to him, great player....but lacrosse is means to an end. Maybe there is PU value? Seems he'd sit out his fall term? Maybe he fails all his current 2020 spring term classes and makes them up?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:55 pmYes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
From the PU website: The Academic Year
All undergraduates who plan to matriculate for either the fall term or the full academic year are required to complete Academic Year Sign-In online at the beginning of the fall term at a time determined by the registrar. Students who plan to resume their studies in the spring term after a leave of absence or academic required withdrawal must complete Academic Year Sign-In at the beginning of the spring term. A student who, without an approved excuse, fails to register at the designated time incurs a fine of $75.
-
- Posts: 34133
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm
Re: Pro N Cons Another Season Senior Eligibilty
You can only have your senior Spring season, and all that it entails at Princeton, once. I wish all of the seniors would come back. I have no idea how reunions and graduation will be held this year. Sitting at home and receiving your diploma in the mail is not the same experience that thousands of others have gone through. If a player wants a full four year experience of being a student athlete at Princeton or anywhere else, they should go for it. They will have a long time to get up and go to work everyday...DA/PU wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:24 amChasing a natty isn't ego stuff, that's all about team and program achievement. He is not worried about proving himself. He probably feels he has unfinished business with a team he loves. Who can fault someone for wanting to return to have another season with your best friends and "run out of that tunnel" one more time? This post is entirely focused on one's possibly selfish motivations (stats, PLL payout?!). Give me a freaking break. Sowers is a world class player and person. He wants to play another season with his team because this one was cut short. There are no ulterior motives here. Go judge this kid somewhere else. Ask anyone in the know and they'll tell you his love for the game and work ethic is as pure as they come.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:10 pmPersonally, I do not like it, but will not judge his/their decision. Chasing stats or a natty.....that is more ego type stuff. He has already proven himself, shown the world he is great....i do not see where the juice is worth the squeeze. Maybe it buys him another year to see how the pro-league shakes out, which could provide a more lucrative payout....assuming he stays healthy? Good luck to him, great player....but lacrosse is means to an end. Maybe there is PU value? Seems he'd sit out his fall term? Maybe he fails all his current 2020 spring term classes and makes them up?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:55 pmYes. Some other Ivy players may follow suit.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:31 pm Reading Sowers withdrew from Princeton so he can return next season.
From the PU website: The Academic Year
All undergraduates who plan to matriculate for either the fall term or the full academic year are required to complete Academic Year Sign-In online at the beginning of the fall term at a time determined by the registrar. Students who plan to resume their studies in the spring term after a leave of absence or academic required withdrawal must complete Academic Year Sign-In at the beginning of the spring term. A student who, without an approved excuse, fails to register at the designated time incurs a fine of $75.
“I wish you would!”