All things CoronaVirus

[CU77]

3) have the humility to listen to others.

You didn't answer my question about the plane.

[DocBarrister]

The number of serious and critical cases has made a large jump up to 708 today.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

with 178 Recovered and 349 deaths.

26.9k total cases (detected), 25.6K active, "mild" as in not yet serious.
Note, many of those "mild" do need hospitalization.

Roughly 16% of all cases do need hospitalization, though it may be half that rate if we include the likely undetected cases.

NYC's hospitals will look like Italy in 10 days.

That sounds like fuzzy math.
What if the undetected cases were 10 times the detected cases, would it just be half that?

If you’re still downplaying the seriousness of this crisis, then you need to stop.

DocBarrister

That is pretty funny.

There is something wrong with you, and I am going to leave it at that.

DocBarrister

[DMac]

Fake news, youth, aint no records that go counter clockwise.

[youthathletics]

The United States is now at over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 400 deaths.

We are on a trajectory to surpass China in both confirmed cases and deaths.

There really is no excuse for that. The Trump administration’s gross negligence is going to cost the United States hundreds of thousands of casualties that could have been avoided, including potentially thousands of additional deaths that may have been prevented.

And Trump is writing Kim Jong Un to offer help?!?

Look at Italy. That may be us in a few weeks on a much larger scale unless the Trump administration gets its act together.

DocBarrister

We’re discussing dying Americans and you post that gif?

DocBarrister

Indeed, we are discussing dying Americans, and all you want to do is be a backseat driver. I say it again.....using your logic, e-v-e-r-y leader in the world has the same darned problem.....and you sit back and criticize only one man.

[ggait]

It apparently is okay for the people of New York as a trial, to begin on Tuesday....according to Cuomo. Is this quackery as well Doc?

The docs are (and should) be furiously throwing existing drugs at the wall to see if anything sticks. Trying off-label prescriptions and warp speed trials.

Even if HCQ/AZ turns out to be useful in some way, you still have to figure out how to use it. Is it a treatment primarily for healthy asymptomatic folks? Or for high risk folks with already serious symptoms? Is it a treatment or a prophyliaxis? What's the best dose and protocol?

Trump highlighted the fact that 6 of 6 (100%!!!) getting the HCQ/AZ treatment were virus free after 5 days. Good result as compared to the 14-21 day peiod generally. But doesn't mention that six patients dropped out of the treatment group: 3 went to the ICU, one dropped out due to nausea, one left the hospital (maybe recovered?) and one DIED. Just a lot of questions to be answered.

Could be that HCQ/AZ works best in a situation like the actor had -- early detection (which requires ample testing), healthy individual (who would likely get better anyway), early intervention (no or mild symptoms).

So pretty useless unless/until you get testing ramped up.

Fingers crossed.

[youthathletics]

Fake news, youth, aint no records that go counter clockwise.

Sure they do....when you are backmasking and listening for satanic hidden message. That's what Tipper Gore taught us back in 1984.

[DocBarrister]

In the UK and elsewhere, they are discussing essentially “drafting” retired physicians to help out while currently practicing physicians are working on the frontlines.

https://www.gponline.com/retired-doctor ... le/1675631

I would agree that there are many problems with that approach, but if officials are discussing graduating medical students early, then they are probably discussing this option, too.

Frankly, I question the cost-benefit of such an effort. Still, like many physicians who no longer practice clinical medicine, I still have an active medical license. If they ask me to perform swab tests at a drive-thru or man an urgent care center on a late night shift to give exhausted physicians a rest, I suppose I can do that. However, I think it’s a really disturbing sign that health officials are even considering calling retired physicians into action.

DocBarrister

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

"This is what happens when a political party spends two decades convincing a huge swath of its base that competent people of superior education, intellect & experience are the enemy and should be vilified as the "elite." We should all want people smarter than us to be in charge."

I've never understood this line of thinking, that one is 'expert' or not, and that we should only listen to 'experts'. Experts are often less expert than advertised.

I like to think I can always be wrong, even about the things I think I know. I ask questions all the time, of everyone, to make sure we're doing it 'right'. When I'm corrected by others and I learn my errors, nothing feels better in the moment. Sometimes a tad embarrassing, but in the end, a great feeling.

im over the whole smart thing. how about someone honest, or not conflicted.

[Peter Brown]

The United States is now at over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 400 deaths.

We are on a trajectory to surpass China in both confirmed cases and deaths.

There really is no excuse for that. The Trump administration’s gross negligence is going to cost the United States hundreds of thousands of casualties that could have been avoided, including potentially thousands of additional deaths that may have been prevented.

And Trump is writing Kim Jong Un to offer help?!?

Look at Italy. That may be us in a few weeks on a much larger scale unless the Trump administration gets its act together.

DocBarrister

Oh look; A Democrat assigning blame. I swear I heard Bill de Blasio saying something similar this morning. Good thing Pelosi won’t hijack the stimulus bill.

Real lives are at stake. It’s not a matter of assigning blame. It’s a matter of placing responsibility.

Trump needs to do more, much more. He is failing to do so. People are dying, and many more will die, because of the mistakes he is continuing to make. What about that do you not understand?

DocBarrister

I’d ask if you’ve ever blamed Jay Inslee in the State of Washington or Andrew Cuomo of New York why their states have performed so badly in this regard, costing many lives, but I’m fairly confident your aim is strictly on Trump.

I’m also sure not one right-leaning poster here has blamed either Inslee or Cuomo. Indeed, many on the Right have praised them.

But TDS. You do you, Doc.

[DocBarrister]

The United States is now at over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 400 deaths.

We are on a trajectory to surpass China in both confirmed cases and deaths.

There really is no excuse for that. The Trump administration’s gross negligence is going to cost the United States hundreds of thousands of casualties that could have been avoided, including potentially thousands of additional deaths that may have been prevented.

And Trump is writing Kim Jong Un to offer help?!?

Look at Italy. That may be us in a few weeks on a much larger scale unless the Trump administration gets its act together.

DocBarrister

We’re discussing dying Americans and you post that gif?

DocBarrister

Indeed, we are discussing dying Americans, and all you want to do is be a backseat driver. I say it again.....using your logic, e-v-e-r-y leader in the world has the same darned problem.....and you sit back and criticize only one man.

Last time I checked, there is only one President of the United States.

Governors of both parties are asking the federal government to do more. Trump needs to do more. That’s not a Democratic or Republican plea, it’s an American one.

DocBarrister

[Peter Brown]

"This is what happens when a political party spends two decades convincing a huge swath of its base that competent people of superior education, intellect & experience are the enemy and should be vilified as the "elite." We should all want people smarter than us to be in charge."

I've never understood this line of thinking, that one is 'expert' or not, and that we should only listen to 'experts'. Experts are often less expert than advertised.

I like to think I can always be wrong, even about the things I think I know. I ask questions all the time, of everyone, to make sure we're doing it 'right'. When I'm corrected by others and I learn my errors, nothing feels better in the moment. Sometimes a tad embarrassing, but in the end, a great feeling.

im over the whole smart thing. how about someone honest, or not conflicted.

That’s the core of my message. I agree. And I have no problem praising people of any stripe. Fauci seems phenomenal. I think Dewine of Ohio has been great. Breshears of Kentucky has stood out.

[Peter Brown]

The United States is now at over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 400 deaths.

We are on a trajectory to surpass China in both confirmed cases and deaths.

There really is no excuse for that. The Trump administration’s gross negligence is going to cost the United States hundreds of thousands of casualties that could have been avoided, including potentially thousands of additional deaths that may have been prevented.

And Trump is writing Kim Jong Un to offer help?!?

Look at Italy. That may be us in a few weeks on a much larger scale unless the Trump administration gets its act together.

DocBarrister

We’re discussing dying Americans and you post that gif?

DocBarrister

Indeed, we are discussing dying Americans, and all you want to do is be a backseat driver. I say it again.....using your logic, e-v-e-r-y leader in the world has the same darned problem.....and you sit back and criticize only one man.

Last time I checked, there is only one President of the United States.

Governors of both parties are asking the federal government to do more. Trump needs to do more. That’s not a Democratic or Republican plea, it’s an American one.

DocBarrister

Your credibility has been shot with your endless ‘Republicans are racist POS’s’.

[CU77]

using your logic, e-v-e-r-y leader in the world has the same darned problem.....and you sit back and criticize only one man.

Every leader has the same PROBLEM, but not every leader has the same SOLUTIONS.

Look at Germany, a country with leaders who know what they're doing. 10,000 ventilators being manufactured NOW, in Germany, to add to the existing 25,000. No shortage of tests. No shortage of PPE. New emergency hospitals being built NOW. The Germans know how to do public / private / union partnerships that take care of everybody.

The man we criticize is OUR leader. Want me to criticize Xi of China? Or the prime minister of Italy, whose name I don't remember off hand? Why?

Trump is OUR GUY. If he f***s up royally, which he has, it our RIGHT and DUTY as AMERICAN CITIZENS to criticize him.

Surely you agree with that.

[Farfromgeneva]

btw, EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions, about anything; one need not follow every opinion, but hearing other opinions makes your own that much more informed

The big difference between the right and the left is whether the trust one places in any particular opinion should be weighted by the expertise of the person offering the opinion.

The right places no extra weight on expertise. They trust some guy on medium just as much (or more) as the worldwide medical research community.

PB, you are in this group. You want the medical experts to stop and watch some video by some non-expert.

The left, in contrast, is usually (not always) far more trusting of experts than non-experts.

PB, you're business is aviation, correct? Would you trust some guy on medium telling you how to fix a broken airplane? Would you fly in that plane after he fixed it?

Generally true (assuming right means a bit out the curve not near the middle right of it) but not always. It still bugs me like crazy that when folks on a CNBC interview pointed out or questioned flaws in his healthcare plan when ACA was pushed through that he refused to be calm, rational and instead was shrill, defensive and shrieking “where’s your model, where’s your model” to entirely legitimate questions. Because of that I distrust much of what he says now as I know models reflect more platonic ideal and have controls in place and often get busted so that was a bs answer when he agreed to come on and discuss the topic and I surely saw a rationale interview being given at the time.

Trust but verify, even if one has more domain knowledge than you do. Sort of how I like to roll whenever possible.

[DocBarrister]

The United States is now at over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 400 deaths.

We are on a trajectory to surpass China in both confirmed cases and deaths.

There really is no excuse for that. The Trump administration’s gross negligence is going to cost the United States hundreds of thousands of casualties that could have been avoided, including potentially thousands of additional deaths that may have been prevented.

And Trump is writing Kim Jong Un to offer help?!?

Look at Italy. That may be us in a few weeks on a much larger scale unless the Trump administration gets its act together.

DocBarrister

Oh look; A Democrat assigning blame. I swear I heard Bill de Blasio saying something similar this morning. Good thing Pelosi won’t hijack the stimulus bill.

Real lives are at stake. It’s not a matter of assigning blame. It’s a matter of placing responsibility.

Trump needs to do more, much more. He is failing to do so. People are dying, and many more will die, because of the mistakes he is continuing to make. What about that do you not understand?

DocBarrister

I’d ask if you’ve ever blamed Jay Inslee in the State of Washington or Andrew Cuomo of New York why their states have performed so badly in this regard, costing many lives, but I’m fairly confident your aim is strictly on Trump.

I’m also sure not one right-leaning poster here has blamed either Inslee or Cuomo. Indeed, many on the Right have praised them.

But TDS. You do you, Doc.

Look on this thread. I already opined that Gov. Cuomo acted too late in shutting down NYC. Mayor de Blasio pleaded with him to shut down the city, and Cuomo resisted doing so for several precious days.

I think Cuomo made a major mistake there, and previously stated as much here. Still, he’s doing a great job compared to Trump.

In the future, scholars will study Trump’s actions as an exemplar of how not to lead in a major crisis.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

The United States is now at over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 400 deaths.

We are on a trajectory to surpass China in both confirmed cases and deaths.

There really is no excuse for that. The Trump administration’s gross negligence is going to cost the United States hundreds of thousands of casualties that could have been avoided, including potentially thousands of additional deaths that may have been prevented.

And Trump is writing Kim Jong Un to offer help?!?

Look at Italy. That may be us in a few weeks on a much larger scale unless the Trump administration gets its act together.

DocBarrister

We’re discussing dying Americans and you post that gif?

DocBarrister

Indeed, we are discussing dying Americans, and all you want to do is be a backseat driver. I say it again.....using your logic, e-v-e-r-y leader in the world has the same darned problem.....and you sit back and criticize only one man.

Last time I checked, there is only one President of the United States.

Governors of both parties are asking the federal government to do more. Trump needs to do more. That’s not a Democratic or Republican plea, it’s an American one.

DocBarrister

Your credibility has been shot with your endless ‘Republicans are racist POS’s’.

Actually, that point of mine has been proven by more than a few folks here on this forum, needless to mention the man in the Oval Office.

Don’t even understand how anyone has the temerity to deny the general truth of that. I know there are exceptions ....

DocBarrister

[Peter Brown]

3) have the humility to listen to others.

You didn't answer my question about the plane.

Maintenance/Engineering: every aspect of work performed in this regard is signed off multiple times by line managers or senior engineers. This redundant QC process is a direct result of not trusting one person to be THE expert. Everything is team-oriented and team-produced.

Pilots: the best pilot can no longer compete with auto-pilot. And that capability spread grows wider every day. Reason? Because an auto pilot system can simultaneously and with no failure rate calculate hundreds of variable inputs. Humans can not. (Cirrus’ Vision Jet now has a Safe Return button that anyone reading this can push and the plane will land itself safely every time, no pilot necessary).

Aviation is probably the most glaring industry example of why ‘expertise’ is easily debunked. Not one person can be ‘expert’ at such a complex system. The system is the expert.

[foreverlax]

3) have the humility to listen to others.

You didn't answer my question about the plane.

Nothing new....

[youthathletics]

3) have the humility to listen to others.

You didn't answer my question about the plane.

Maintenance/Engineering: every aspect of work performed in this regard is signed off multiple times by line managers or senior engineers. This redundant QC process is a direct result of not trusting one person to be THE expert. Everything is team-oriented and team-produced.

Pilots: the best pilot can no longer compete with auto-pilot. And that capability spread grows wider every day. Reason? Because an auto pilot system can simultaneously and with no failure rate calculate hundreds of variable inputs. Humans can not. (Cirrus’ Vision Jet now has a Safe Return button that anyone reading this can push and the plane will land itself safely every time, no pilot necessary).

Aviation is probably the most glaring industry example of why ‘expertise’ is easily debunked. Not one person can be ‘expert’ at such a complex system. The system is the expert.

Well said, all boiled down.......#TeamWorkMakesTheDreamWork

[DocBarrister]

3) have the humility to listen to others.

You didn't answer my question about the plane.

Maintenance/Engineering: every aspect of work performed in this regard is signed off multiple times by line managers or senior engineers. This redundant QC process is a direct result of not trusting one person to be THE expert. Everything is team-oriented and team-produced.

Pilots: the best pilot can no longer compete with auto-pilot. And that capability spread grows wider every day. Reason? Because an auto pilot system can simultaneously and with no failure rate calculate hundreds of variable inputs. Humans can not. (Cirrus’ Vision Jet now has a Safe Return Burton that anyone reading this can push and the plane will land itself safely every time, no pilot necessary).

Aviation is probably the most glaring industry example of why ‘expertise’ is easily debunked. Not one person can be ‘expert’ at such a complex system. The system is the expert.

Auto pilot is great until a pitot tube freezes up and the auto pilot disengages at an inopportune time because it can’t handle the conflicting data.

I used to do a lot of aviation litigation. Learned the same thing as I did in medicine: small failures can have catastrophic results.

Whether it’s a microscopic arterial plaque triggering a fatal thrombotic cascade or a small switch failure causing a helicopter to literally slice itself in half, complex systems can be brought down by the smallest things.

Coronavirus is just a different variant of that.

DocBarrister