All things CoronaVirus

[MDlaxfan76]

Serious question. No politics please.

If in Wuhan China—the epicenter for this virus since December—and with population higher but comparable to California—has only had 82,000 cases.
And seems to be declining in any new cases.

How can Gavin Newsome claim 25 million Californians will be infected. They are Chicoms but being able to conceal 25 million cases?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template: ... ical_cases

ps: only 250K cases globally to date

The 25 million number sounds high to me. Given the expert estimates, half of that number is easily justifiable and probably closer to the truth. Probably in the 13 to 19 range, if you believe Fauci. Half of those will show no symptoms, just spread it to others.

That's likely correct, however California has 40 million residents...so 25 is 60%.
That's in range of what the predictions are absent sufficient response.

Newsom appears to be saying that, given no ability to do surveillance testing and selective quarantine, the only way to avoid such a spread is total lockdown.

He's trying to make clear why that lockdown is critical.

[MDlaxfan76]

I was just getting comfortable that a society-wide agreement had been reached to starve out this virus. Then I opened the Facebook and browsed over to the pages of my reactionary-right wing friends pages.

How long can fake news media/Democrats successfully keep Americans at a fever pitch level of irrational panic and fear?........

........We know our constitutional rights and will fight for them. We will not go gentle into Democrats' snap-of-their-fingers repeal of our constitutional freedoms intended to collapse our economy.

The simple truth is the coronavirus has had very little effect, causing around 125 deaths nationwide. What has caused the unprecedented closing down of America is media-hype about the coronavirus.

.........Because God put Trump into the White House and only God will take him out.

And apparently there is some press supporting this thinking.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... dness.html

Horrifyingly, that's the problem, big % of people still don't think the virus is serious...which is why we really can't think we'll follow the China track, much less the SK track.

Voluntary compliance isn't going to be enough.
If the leadership out of the WH was stronger, there'd still be some knuckleheads but they'd be isolated.
But at this point, Trump is still playing to his base.
And they've been told again and again and again...and still are...that it's not very, very serious.
So, the feedback loop with them continues to tell him he's being 'strong'. They want to be reassured that all will be fine.

[jhu72]

More stock act news. Senators Ron Johnson, Jim Imhof also sold stocks after the Senate briefing. Sen Feinstein’s husband, an investment manager, sold shares in a cancer company prior to the Senate briefing. I’ll bet this list grows.

Yup.

Also, we as citizens constantly protect government officials from being held personally liable for the things that the government holds us responsible for. Prosecutors have total immunity, Congress (and their employees!) can trade on information given to them in official meetings and suffer no repercussions, teachers can basically murder someone and they can't be fired, cops historically could get away with murder (literally) and never suffer consequences (though body cameras are changing that).

I am not a fan of government writ large because the natural human tendency when given power which is not earned (almost no political power is earned; promising gifts for votes is not exactly an honorable process) is to abuse that dynamic (Katie Hill anyone?).

Yes and this is my problem with government and politicians and actually the American System in general. Those at the top have and continue to take advantages - huge advantages, whether legal or not. The solution is not to destroy the system. The solution is to fix the problem. Actually hold those at the top MORE RESPONSIBLE. More severe and more certain penalties! There are people in this world and specifically in American society who would not take these advantages. They actually believe in SERVICE. Very few of these individuals are in federal government. We need to lop off some very visible heads.

ok, found something to at least partially disagree with you on '72.

I was with you on "fix the system" and holding folks more accountable, more clear, "severe and more certain penalties".

But I disagree with this statement: "....They actually believe in SERVICE. Very few of these individuals are in federal government." -- agree, I put this badly and edited it to qualify with "leadership positions"

Nope, there are many, not few, such people in government. I think most. -- I agree, this is why I made the change. The problem is, these people aren't the decision makers we see, they are rank and file. I bristle when people denigrate these folks as a class. The vast majority of Americans fit this mold. The system makes sure the morally weaker individuals in our society rise to the top. There are of course exceptions to this rule -- but it is the RULE! PS: I don't mean morally weaker in a sexual proclivities sense - I mean morally weaker in terms of the "generalized" golden rule.

However, there are also way too many who get caught up with power, prestige, etc and 'take advantage' unethically. I think that's way more the political class than the civil servants. And even most of the political bunch simply need to get a whop up side the head (and yes, a few lopped off, so to speak) about where "advantages" should not be taken.

But remember that this is not just a gov't issue, it's also rampant throughout our capitalist society. And it's really not as simple as we might think. -- agreed it is the SYSTEM and its interaction with certain personality types.

For instance, my family knows personally many top doctors, folks who run departments, at Johns Hopkins...so, when my mom and dad were sick, the calls went to them and we felt confident in who they would see and the care they would receive. I don't know that they actually received differentiated service, but I did feel more confident about it. Should I have not made those calls? Was it "unethical"?... -- interesting question

[kramerica.inc]

The Chinese really locked down to stop this. Took turns going outside. Movement monitored by the government.

That’s an understatement.

Saw actual videos of them:

Dropping front loaders full of dirt and gravel in front of high-rise building entrances to lock people in.

Grabbing suspected sick off the street and sent to quarantine camps.

Building makeshift “hospitals” that included large pits...

China’s info or numbers can’t be trusted. At all.

[jhu72]

MSNBC audio / video technician just died of coronavirus.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Chinese really locked down to stop this. Took turns going outside. Movement monitored by the government.

That’s an understatement.

Saw actual videos of them:

Dropping front loaders full of dirt and gravel in front of high-rise building entrances to lock people in.

Grabbing suspected sick off the street and sent to quarantine camps.

Building makeshift “hospitals” that included large pits...

China’s info or numbers can’t be trusted. At all.

Correct.
That's indeed what I meant by "enforced in ways hard to even imagine. 8 weeks of such".

And yes, the Chinese #'s cannot be trusted. I think that means they would have erred to underreporting, not over reporting, so the reality was (and may still be) worse than reported.

That said, I suspect there's indeed been a dramatic reduction in # of actual cases.

[MDlaxfan76]

More stock act news. Senators Ron Johnson, Jim Imhof also sold stocks after the Senate briefing. Sen Feinstein’s husband, an investment manager, sold shares in a cancer company prior to the Senate briefing. I’ll bet this list grows.

Yup.

Also, we as citizens constantly protect government officials from being held personally liable for the things that the government holds us responsible for. Prosecutors have total immunity, Congress (and their employees!) can trade on information given to them in official meetings and suffer no repercussions, teachers can basically murder someone and they can't be fired, cops historically could get away with murder (literally) and never suffer consequences (though body cameras are changing that).

I am not a fan of government writ large because the natural human tendency when given power which is not earned (almost no political power is earned; promising gifts for votes is not exactly an honorable process) is to abuse that dynamic (Katie Hill anyone?).

Yes and this is my problem with government and politicians and actually the American System in general. Those at the top have and continue to take advantages - huge advantages, whether legal or not. The solution is not to destroy the system. The solution is to fix the problem. Actually hold those at the top MORE RESPONSIBLE. More severe and more certain penalties! There are people in this world and specifically in American society who would not take these advantages. They actually believe in SERVICE. Very few of these individuals are in federal government. We need to lop off some very visible heads.

ok, found something to at least partially disagree with you on '72.

I was with you on "fix the system" and holding folks more accountable, more clear, "severe and more certain penalties".

But I disagree with this statement: "....They actually believe in SERVICE. Very few of these individuals are in federal government." -- agree, I put this badly and edited it to qualify with "leadership positions"

Nope, there are many, not few, such people in government. I think most. -- I agree, this is why I made the change. The problem is, these people aren't the decision makers we see, they are rank and file. I bristle when people denigrate these folks as a class. The vast majority of Americans fit this mold. The system makes sure the morally weaker individuals in our society rise to the top. There are of course exceptions to this rule -- but it is the RULE! PS: I don't mean morally weaker in a sexual proclivities sense - I mean morally weaker in terms of the "generalized" golden rule.

However, there are also way too many who get caught up with power, prestige, etc and 'take advantage' unethically. I think that's way more the political class than the civil servants. And even most of the political bunch simply need to get a whop up side the head (and yes, a few lopped off, so to speak) about where "advantages" should not be taken.

But remember that this is not just a gov't issue, it's also rampant throughout our capitalist society. And it's really not as simple as we might think. -- agreed it is the SYSTEM and its interaction with certain personality types.

For instance, my family knows personally many top doctors, folks who run departments, at Johns Hopkins...so, when my mom and dad were sick, the calls went to them and we felt confident in who they would see and the care they would receive. I don't know that they actually received differentiated service, but I did feel more confident about it. Should I have not made those calls? Was it "unethical"?... -- interesting question

We're back in agreement.

[Brooklyn]

Our brilliant fearless LEADER.

[jhu72]

Serious question. No politics please.

If in Wuhan China—the epicenter for this virus since December—and with population higher but comparable to California—has only had 82,000 cases.
And seems to be declining in any new cases.

How can Gavin Newsome claim 25 million Californians will be infected. They are Chicoms but being able to conceal 25 million cases?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template: ... ical_cases

ps: only 250K cases globally to date

The 25 million number sounds high to me. Given the expert estimates, half of that number is easily justifiable and probably closer to the truth. Probably in the 13 to 19 range, if you believe Fauci. Half of those will show no symptoms, just spread it to others.

That's likely correct, however California has 40 million residents...so 25 is 60%.
That's in range of what the predictions are absent sufficient response.

Newsom appears to be saying that, given no ability to do surveillance testing and selective quarantine, the only way to avoid such a spread is total lockdown.

He's trying to make clear why that lockdown is critical.

Yes of course. I have always thought the 60% estimate was high. I suspect at the end of the day we will come in lower. Still a huge number and will depend on our reaction. I am a natural optimist.

[njbill]

MSNBC audio / video technician just died of coronavirus.

This report says he also suffered from other health issues.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nb ... s-n1164696

[Kismet]

I suspect that Newsome knows (as do other governors) that its best to OVERREACT at this time and to use that as a method to maximize compliance (echoing what Fauci said about overdoing things and then, in hindsight, have a better outcome because of overdoing things.)

I have heard that other states are contemplating similar lockdowns.

[jhu72]

Our brilliant fearless LEADER.

He is dealing with and targeting a class (successfully) with a serious cognitive problem.

[Peter Brown]

More stock act news. Senators Ron Johnson, Jim Imhof also sold stocks after the Senate briefing. Sen Feinstein’s husband, an investment manager, sold shares in a cancer company prior to the Senate briefing. I’ll bet this list grows.

Yup.

Also, we as citizens constantly protect government officials from being held personally liable for the things that the government holds us responsible for. Prosecutors have total immunity, Congress (and their employees!) can trade on information given to them in official meetings and suffer no repercussions, teachers can basically murder someone and they can't be fired, cops historically could get away with murder (literally) and never suffer consequences (though body cameras are changing that).

I am not a fan of government writ large because the natural human tendency when given power which is not earned (almost no political power is earned; promising gifts for votes is not exactly an honorable process) is to abuse that dynamic (Katie Hill anyone?).

Yes and this is my problem with government and politicians and actually the American System in general. Those at the top have and continue to take advantages - huge advantages, whether legal or not. The solution is not to destroy the system. The solution is to fix the problem. Actually hold those at the top MORE RESPONSIBLE. More severe and more certain penalties! There are people in this world and specifically in American society who would not take these advantages. They actually believe in SERVICE. Very few of these individuals are in federal government leadership positions. We need to lop off some very visible heads.

I have always had a problem with this notion that federal government employees (excepting military) are providing a public service. They are paid employees at zero risk; they get retirement plans and massive health benefits, and today, many earn far more than their private sector counterpart providing a similar service. They also tend to clock out at five double 0. And if you say, 'well what about the NIH', I would merely say, 'well what about scientists at any research lab, what about doctors pulling 48-hour shifts in private hospitals'? Who owns the designation of honor more? Who believes in service more?

Are some gov't employees altruistic and high-minded? Sure. More than the private sector? I doubt that, a lot...

Most I know feel like they have a job and are proud to do it, but ultimately the anonymity of a disengaged leviathan like 'government' saps their eagerness.

Do we tell our private sector employees they are 'servants'? It's all the same, military excluded.

[kramerica.inc]

Surface protection:

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-lon ... ect-2020-3

[jhu72]

MSNBC audio / video technician just died of coronavirus.

This report says he also suffered from other health issues.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nb ... s-n1164696

Went fast. Just confirmed the disease this past weekend.

[jhu72]

I suspect that Newsome knows (as do other governors) that its best to OVERREACT at this time and to use that as a method to maximize compliance (echoing what Fauci said about overdoing things and then, in hindsight, have a better outcome because of overdoing things.)

I have heard that other states are contemplating similar lockdowns.

I was surprised at their call. They are really ahead of the curve and will likely have them at the end of the day with one of the lowest per capita infection rates in the country, if not the world. Certainly lower than the US average.

[jhu72]

Just announced Italy has passed China in deaths.

[Cooter]

The current numbers at
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
have total U.S. cases at 14373 with 218 deaths.

Current active cases at 14030 with 64 critical (.46%)
Of the 343 closed cases 218 have died.

These numbers tend to point to cutting back on a lot of the restrictions, as a small percent are actually turning up critical (is this much different than the flu?).

Even when we get critical cases to the hospital, it seems like a high percentage die anyways.

[Trinity]

Loeffler, after she sold:

“Democrats have dangerously and intentionally misled the American people on #Coronavirus readiness.
Here’s the truth: @realDonaldTrump & his administration are doing a great job working to keep Americans healthy & safe.”


“Barr may not charge sitting senators for violating the STOCK Act, but a Biden Justice Department might.”Brian Fallon

NYS just closed all but essential businesses. California and New York are closed.

[foreverlax]

I suspect that Newsome knows (as do other governors) that its best to OVERREACT at this time and to use that as a method to maximize compliance (echoing what Fauci said about overdoing things and then, in hindsight, have a better outcome because of overdoing things.)

I have heard that other states are contemplating similar lockdowns.

California has to come back first - 19 million workers putting out $3.1t of GDP...30 big time corp headquarters, and over 11% of ag cash receipts.

30% more than Iowa, double Nebraska...more then Kansas, Florida and both Dakotas combined.