Johns Hopkins 2021

[Sagittarius A*]

I would grant Petro a one-year extension if he wants it. He has recruited a great freshman class that will debut next season. Let’s see what a healthy Epstein can do with the team next year.

If Petro can’t win with the talent he will have next season, it’s probably time for a change.

But I would give one of the most important figures in the history of Hopkins lacrosse one more season if he wants it.

DocBarrister

Ugh. This team needs a culture change in the worst way. Again, the Jays were near the bottom of the league in every statistical category in 2020 except for faceoffs. The team beat a winless team and struggled to beat Mount St Marys, got blown off the field by every one else. It's been a great 20 year roller coaster ride but now it's time for it to end. Period. JHC.

[Farfromgeneva]

I also don't think you understand the reservations any alum would have coming to hop, Coach R is incredibly loyal to Coach P and has no interest in the pressure of performing as an alum to unrealistic expectations.

I agree it's definitely far from a sure thing, I don't doubt Raymond likes his current situation and that it would take a lot to get him to leave, but this part here that I've quoted I do not see the same way at all. Hypothetically speaking, let's say Petro is shown the door and the school reaches out to Raymond about an interview. Raymond is not just going to say no immediately, out of loyalty to Petro or any other reason. He's going to call Petro and tell him what's going on, and Petro, being the magnanimous guy that he is, will tell Raymond to go ahead and pursue it if he's interested. He is not one to stand in the way of a huge opportunity for a good young coach, especially one who once played for him.

Also, regarding "unrealistic expectations." I get that Hopkins alums can be a bit much—ESPECIALLY some on this forum—but I actually don't think very many people have unrealistic expectations at all. You're mistaking frustration for unreasonableness. Nobody is expecting a return to the glory days of the 80s or mid 2000s. I think at this point most of us would settle for just generally being more competitive than we are. Fewer blowouts, a quarterfinal here, a Final Four there. But they are not even meeting that relatively low bar. Anything lower and you've stopped being Hopkins lacrosse. There needs to be a minimum standard. Petro and whoever the next coach is would certainly agree.

It’s how Petro is shown the door that matters being my point. Some may hate the guy, maybe he deserves it, but when you take his contributions into account as both player and coach, if he’s shown the door in a unprofessional or unceremonious manner that is going to cause a lot of pause. Even alums are looking to see how the situation is handled I am sure of in 1-2 situations before they’re even consider the gig.

Point being make sure you kick Coach P to the curb the right way. It’s necessary to your next move.

If Hopkins was kicking him to the curb, they would have done it last year with a year left on his contract. He isn't being kicked anywhere. His contract is not being renewed because of failing to meet performance targets. It isn't like this is a one year issue, this is over a decade - 12 years 1 final four. If you asked DP back in 20089 that if he only made 1 FF over the next 12 seasons, would he expect to be coaching Hopkins in 2021. I suspect he would say "no."

I have worked on Wall Street proper including a couple of sociopathic bosses at bulge bracket firms and even there if you build a resume like Petro had in equivalence, you get an evergreen rolling contract. No one would read not renewing as anything other than being kicked to the curb. Just because people live on 1-2yr contracts doesn’t mean the base expectation is anything other being renewed is tantamount to being fired or kicked to the curb. It can be spun however you want, maybe he should be gone, but he needs to go with some pomp and circumstance, not a quiet press release and disappearance or something worse. Tennessee football is a great example, they’ve struggled since treating Fuller poorly on the way out. Every coach looks at that and some decide they want more out of their employer. Even a guy like Cassese could easily turn down Duke to stay at Lehigh if they treat Dano poorly on a downswing especially considering how ridiculous the administration sold both the students and Pressler were treated in 06.

You’ll get someone who’ll look good on paper surely but how he’s treated on the way out will shape your pool and determine how open it is.

[primitiveskills]

To me, this is similar to Coach Meade/Navy. It will be the 5th-6th choice and could be a current associate/assistant from another big time program. Chance to reset things and align w schools other athletic programs. It’s the coach who gets the job after the next coach who will thrive....

Disagree. You can have your opinion on whether Hopkins is still an attractive desination for recruits (the incoming class suggests it still is) or whether expectations are realistic or unrealistic, but the situation at a service academy is an entirely different proposition and can't be compared.

[Sagittarius A*]

Even a guy like Cassese could easily turn down Duke to stay at Lehigh if they treat Dano poorly on a downswing especially considering how ridiculous the administration sold both the students and Pressler were treated in 06.

You’ll get someone who’ll look good on paper surely but how he’s treated on the way out will shape your pool and determine how open it is.

You've answered your own issue here. Duke treated Pressler terribly, fired him before all the facts were in, no excuse, and yet they still were able hire Danowski, one of the best coaches in the game and win championships with him. I doubt Hopkins would treat DP shabbily, but they have no obligation whatsoever to renew his contract. Even if they do things badly, I doubt it will mean much to a coach looking for a plum position. No coach goes in expecting to be fired. They go in with confidence and optimism. Lots of coaches and assistant coaches out there who would jump at the chance to coach in the Cordish Center.

[Farfromgeneva]

Because his son was in the middle of that tragedy.

Hop have any kids on the team of coaches they want???

Maybe they should go after Seth Tierney and talk Ryan into coming for a 5th year?

I actually think forget Nads, Raymond, Cassese, etc. The guy you want is Scott Marr. That would be the right move if it could be pulled off. And I mean since everyone would drop their beloved wives for the gig there’s no problem grabbing him right? After Marr I’d be looking at Matt Brown, why not even have Marc Van A come over for a 5-10yr stretch (assuming he worked out)? On the assistant side I don’t know who else would be good, seems like a crap shoot and hard to attribute to an AC often so you don’t know what you are getting (MVA has HC exp and also was de facto co HC at UVA for a bit). Murphy? Nick Myers?

[Sagittarius A*]

Because his son was in the middle of that tragedy.

Yep, his son was in the middle of that. Based on your logic he should have talked his son into transferring and avoided that job like the plague.
Coaches don't think that way. They think, wow, a prestigious coaching job has just opened up! I'm looking for an opportunity, a challenge, and career advancement. I'm throwing my name in the hat.

[HopFan16]

A lot of people thought Virginia mishandled Starsia's exit, and yet here we are, just a few years later, and the Hoos are defending champions under a new coach.

I'm not even sure where the idea that DP would be treated poorly on his way out is coming from. The AD and all of the bigwig alums—most of whom are friends with Petro—are not dummies. If and when the time comes to move on, he will be treated with respect both as a human being and as a very important part of the Hopkins lacrosse tradition. There is absolutely no indication that that won't be the case. We shouldn't mistake some of the idiocy we see on these forums for how the actual school will behave when it comes to making what is a complicated decision.

In any case, I still think the coronavirus is going to end up making the decision for them. The longer it goes on—and it looks like it's going to last for awhile—the higher the chances DP returns for at least another year. Who can say for sure when they'd be able to start a coaching search in earnest? June? July? That seems like absolute best case scenario and you can't bank on it. You don't want to risk being in the middle of recruiting season with fall ball on the horizon and not having a staff in place. I know some of you want a new coach but I promise you, the prospect of it being September and Hopkins is without a lacrosse coach is exponentially worse than making the call to retain the current one for another season.

[Sagittarius A*]

In any case, I still think the coronavirus is going to end up making the decision for them. The longer it goes on—and it looks like it's going to last for awhile—the higher the chances DP returns for at least another year. Who can say for sure when they'd be able to start a coaching search in earnest? June? July? That seems like absolute best case scenario and you can't bank on it. You don't want to risk being in the middle of recruiting season with fall ball on the horizon and not having a staff in place. I know some of you want a new coach but I promise you, the prospect of it being September and Hopkins is without a lacrosse coach is exponentially worse than making the call to retain the current one for another season.

The virus is definitely a wild card here. And I acknowledge that a one year "coronavirus extension" is a real possibility.
I'm hoping that doesn't happen.
I think ANYTHING would be better than our current staff, including no coach at all. I'm sure however, that Zim could be brought back on a one year interim contract, or you could move Steele from his office on the woman's side for an interim position. The only way I would consider bringing Petro back on a one year extension is if he's willing to make staff changes. That doesn't seem to be his MO though.

[Mightyjoe]

I would grant Petro a one-year extension if he wants it. He has recruited a great freshman class that will debut next season. Let’s see what a healthy Epstein can do with the team next year.

If Petro can’t win with the talent he will have next season, it’s probably time for a change.

But I would give one of the most important figures in the history of Hopkins lacrosse one more season if he wants it.

DocBarrister

Ugh. This team needs a culture change in the worst way. Again, the Jays were near the bottom of the league in every statistical category in 2020 except for faceoffs. The team beat a winless team and struggled to beat Mount St Marys, got blown off the field by every one else. It's been a great 20 year roller coaster ride but now it's time for it to end. Period. JHC.

Couldn't agree more. We believe it's the talent pool and that the new kids coming in will fix the issue. Aside from the regular guys that everyone saw on the field each week, there are others that could have contributed. I know for most it's difficult to believe that we actually did have talent and depth. Coaching issues plagued this group of boys. Not recognizing other kids potential and what they can offer over trying the same thing every weekend with the same group has been the Achilles to our failure.
Different coaching staff could have developed a more competitive team with the kids we have/had.
I'm sure last summer there were many discussions around that Freshman class coming in with emphasis on Murphy, Angelis, etc etc. I' m certain that most....at least some thought we were going to be "a different team this year". How'd that pan out?

[nyjay]

Virus or nothing, something has to happen before next year. How many seasons in a row have we had the same story of DP saying "we know last year's results were unacceptable. This year, we've changed the practice schedule/focused on peer leadership/focused on accountability/simplified the systems/whatever else." And then nothing changes, other than the personnel. Nothing changes. Same HC, same staff, same inability to clear, same 45% saves, same poor SSDM play, same missing slides and fills, same failure of players to get better year over year, same everything. And now the staff is out of contract. That staff is the one constant. You just can't bring them back again without anything changing. DP himself has to know this. There just comes a time. And I accept that things probably won't get better overnight. It's a price I'm willing to pay.

[Farfromgeneva]

Because his son was in the middle of that tragedy.

Yep, his son was in the middle of that. Based on your logic he should have talked his son into transferring and avoided that job like the plague.
Coaches don't think that way. They think, wow, a prestigious coaching job has just opened up! I'm looking for an opportunity, a challenge, and career advancement. I'm throwing my name in the hat.

Since I've hijacked this enough, just speaking for the handful of coaches I can get information from (or through their families) your statement isn't universally true. Particularly not ones in decent seats already. Sure Corrado, Seremet and Fedorjaka have looked around this decade, but they all stayed where they are through tragic car accidents, divorces, etc. I can say for a fact that not all coaches will drop their pants at the opportunity for a new job, especially if they are comfortable in their less prestigious seat. Money can change anyone, but tell me Hop is paying $300k plus other bennies and would make good on any deferred comp at the existing gig and then I'll agree all coaches would strongly consider. But not for $200k and a "standard" package. Some would rather use it as leverage for a pay bump and stay where they are, I can say definitively is the truth. Kind of depends on how real world smart said coach is.

[HopFan16]

I think ANYTHING would be better than our current staff, including no coach at all.

And we're back into loony bin territory.

Money can change anyone, but tell me Hop is paying $300k plus other bennies and would make good on any deferred comp at the existing gig and then I'll agree all coaches would strongly consider. But not for $200k and a "standard" package. Some would rather use it as leverage for a pay bump and stay where they are, I can say definitively is the truth. Kind of depends on how real world smart said coach is.

I have no inside info but I strongly suspect the next Hopkins men's lacrosse coach will be paid significantly more than $200k. Obviously it also depends whom they hire and how much that person was making before taking the job. Nadelen's base salary at Towson in 2019 was 220k according to public state employee salary records (Tillman's, for comparison, was 450). Just one example, but if Hopkins wants Nads, the negotiation probably STARTS at 300. I don't know how much Petro makes but I assume it is closer to half a mill than it is to 200.

[Sagittarius A*]

I think ANYTHING would be better than our current staff, including no coach at all.

And we're back into loony bin territory.

h-y-p-e-r-b-o-l-e

[Farfromgeneva]

I think ANYTHING would be better than our current staff, including no coach at all.

And we're back into loony bin territory.

Money can change anyone, but tell me Hop is paying $300k plus other bennies and would make good on any deferred comp at the existing gig and then I'll agree all coaches would strongly consider. But not for $200k and a "standard" package. Some would rather use it as leverage for a pay bump and stay where they are, I can say definitively is the truth. Kind of depends on how real world smart said coach is.

I have no inside info but I strongly suspect the next Hopkins men's lacrosse coach will be paid significantly more than $200k. Obviously it also depends whom they hire and how much that person was making before taking the job. Nadelen's base salary at Towson in 2019 was 220k according to public state employee salary records (Tillman's, for comparison, was 450). Just one example, but if Hopkins wants Nads, the negotiation probably STARTS at 300. I don't know how much Petro makes but I assume it is closer to half a mill than it is to 200.

In salary, or total comp? I was talking salary and the rest (camps, other stuff) would increase from there. I was under the impressions Tierney's deal was still something of a benchmark even nearly a decade later, not to say it hasn't been surpassed but still a data point people use and that was $250k in salary (plus gobs of other perks and comp/bennies).

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

There is no idiocy in THIS forum.

(Except for the non-Hopkins posters, others who hope their coach doesn’t leave, and DB.)

[viper]

Hey, you never know!
Think would Roman could do for our offense! LoL
I meant Greg Raymond. My bad.

Raymond isn’t coming. I’d suggest you guys dig up John Haus’ number and see what he’s up to these days.

John Haus is just in his 3rd year as an assistant at PSU. PSU's offense has been doing pretty well.
I think Hopkins might be looking for someone with a little more experience.

I think he was referring to John Haus (Sr), ex Hopkins coach (for a brief time) who is currently the head coach at DIII Lebanon Valley College in PA.

[44WeWantMore]

Oh, he has been an ex-Hopkins coach for a quite a while now.

[Farfromgeneva]

Yep, the old Haus who flames out, which was a joke, I was kidding.

Wombat, I don’t really care that much of Raymond goes or not, his life. I just think the discussion around “we make a call to Geneva and he’s here a week later” is way off base and have gotten some info that he and his wife are quite pleased back in upstate NY and isn’t ready to just jump ship for anywhere. He’s been fine, I think the best thing he’s done is create some discipline that hasn’t had much since the early Urick years and redeveloped a more local upstate NY pipeline which had died off between the way out AD blew out BJ OHara killing W Genny for us and then kerwick and TW Johnson spent a lot more time in the mid Atlantic for a decade or so. But he’s still learning as a coach, I wish he’d press out more on D, very conservative be in position like some of your folks hate w Petro. Our wing play has not been good at all over his tenure, covered up a little by a criminally not AA FOGO last two years. ESP when LSM was his position. He yanks guys and goes short on the bench early and often and has occasionally ruined kids who needed a different touch by using the rock head hard a** routine all the time. He’s a good coach but half the things you hate about Petro are exactly how he coaches too. He’s be fine but not sure he’s be an improvement over Petro other than younger. But if he goes, we will survive, we’ve had lacrosse as long as you have and plenty to care about surrounded by Indian tribes in NY. Lacrosse at Hobart will survive any coach or ad at this stage.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

I think you just ruined his interview.

[DocBarrister]

There is no idiocy in THIS forum.

(Except for the non-Hopkins posters, others who hope their coach doesn’t leave, and DB.)

Says the guy who voted for that moron Trump.

DocBarrister