Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

[runrussellrun]

holmes said :
You see economic migrants flow whichever way the wind blows - we had more Mexicans leaving than entering during the recession - if they don't have work here, they'll leave for better climes, so you could definitely see many people leaving.

You're correct that E-verify is just one part of a complex issue. And notice I didn't say it would fix the problem completely, but it would be a big step and help with a lot of issues. It's easy, low-hanging fruit to implement with large effects. A border wall will have a much smaller effect, and does absolutely nothing to address the 11-22 million already here illegally, whereas E-Verify will have at least a small effect, if not more on them.

Mexican migrants are no longer the problem. They can now be expeditiously deported. Central American migrants are now the problem.

You can't impose E-verify until the other parts are in place to deal with the near term side effects.
You can't immediately remove the workforce here under fake ID, without crippling the economy.
What part of the economy will be crippled? Raytheon and K st. lobbyists. Guess what, eat at home. 12 million people don't have jobs (it's more) according to US #'s. If no one wants to wash dishes or pick lettuce for $30 a day, oh well. Pay the more. No one needs a $4million waterfront home, do they?
When you legitimize the presence of the non-criminal workers among the 11-22 million already here, it will (rightly) be viewed as amnesty.
It will be a magnet to anyone in Central America seeking a better life, just as the asylum catch & release scam has become.

You can't activate that big magnet before you have viable border security, of which a physical barrier (aka wall) is an integral part.
These Central American migrants are also a big disruption & expense for Mexico, caused by our implementation of asylum laws.

Better build a wall up north too. Why are you so afraid of implementing tech for jobs and collecting taxes? Does tech work in our nuclear subs? Guess if we go to a federal sales tax, everfy won't matter. Afraid of THAT too?

[foreverlax]

Further insights from an expert -

"There is another issue in eliminating birthright citizenship - the difficult logistics, some of which are contrary to what I think are well-established traditions of America! Do we want to live in a society where, as in Europe, every one has a national identity card that verifies your citizenship and nationality that you must present wherever you go, like a hospital? Because that would be necessary in order to implement birthright citizenship.

(Do you know that only one-third of all Americans have _ever_ had a US passport? What will we do to prove citizenship? Require everyone have a current, valid passport?)

Also note that the US tradition in our citizenship and naturalization laws has always been that we don’t care what _other_ countries do. But if we eliminated birthright citizenship we would have to care about the law of the country of a parent’s citizenship, otherwise children would born stateless in the US! (Example: graduate students in the US from x foreign country, have a child in the US but under the law of the parents’ citizenship they cannot transmit citizenship to a child born abroad…). "

What will we do to prove citizenship? Kansas woman told birth certificate wasn’t enough to prove citizenship for passport

HAH...Kansas, what a shock!!

[a fan]

You can't impose E-verify until the other parts are in place to deal with the near term side effects.

There are no circumstances where turning on E Verify and severely penalizing businesses that don't comply, without a short term mess. Short term meaning 5-10 years.

Having a fully secure border will have a whole mess of negative effects, too.

When you legitimize the presence of the non-criminal workers among the 11-22 million already here, it will (rightly) be viewed as amnesty.

Your logic is stuck in the mud, spinning its wheels. I appreciate that you want to do this as smoothly as possible, but no matter what we do, it's going to be a shock to the economy, and people that are here illegally----and the communities they live in----are royally screwed. It's going to be really bad no matter how hard we try to mitigate the effects.

UNLESS your plan is to simply give everyone already here a work visa and/or citizenship.

You can't activate that big magnet before you have viable border security, of which a physical barrier (aka wall) is an integral part.

If you believe that, we're 20+ years from immigration reform.

[foreverlax]

An experts view on a National I.D. card -

"Practical reasons: Do we give the same card to US born US citizens as legal immigrants? Maybe a national id card with a blue dot if you’re a legal permanent resident, green if here on a temporary visa. Or a yellow star if you’re a refugee. Uh, no, that is not the ticket. Once the card exists, who can require it for what private sector activities? Are we just going to ask for it if you have a funny name? Or if you speak with an accent? Un, no, that is not the ticket.

Political reasons: There are enough Dems who remember WW2 Germany that would never go for a national id card, and enough Rs in the black helicopter crowd (the government is going to take over our private information) that there have been numerous laws enacted where as a caveat the statutory language specifically says “but nothing in this law allows the creation of a national id card.” For example, in the mandatory E-Verify legislation I worked on we had to include a provision establishing that mandating an electronic verification of work authorization would not permit creation of a mandatory national identity card."

Seems every "good" idea comes this lot's of unintended consequences....completely aside from politics, which is the only real impediment to solving this issue.

[a fan]

System already exists. Just make everyone get a US Passport.

[runrussellrun]

Further insights from an expert -

"There is another issue in eliminating birthright citizenship - the difficult logistics, some of which are contrary to what I think are well-established traditions of America! Do we want to live in a society where, as in Europe, every one has a national identity card that verifies your citizenship and nationality that you must present wherever you go, like a hospital? Because that would be necessary in order to implement birthright citizenship.

(Do you know that only one-third of all Americans have _ever_ had a US passport? What will we do to prove citizenship? Require everyone have a current, valid passport?)

Also note that the US tradition in our citizenship and naturalization laws has always been that we don’t care what _other_ countries do. But if we eliminated birthright citizenship we would have to care about the law of the country of a parent’s citizenship, otherwise children would born stateless in the US! (Example: graduate students in the US from x foreign country, have a child in the US but under the law of the parents’ citizenship they cannot transmit citizenship to a child born abroad…). "

What will we do to prove citizenship? Kansas woman told birth certificate wasn’t enough to prove citizenship for passport

HAH...Kansas, what a shock!!

Is this a bigotted comment? Not sure what's a shock about Kansas......are you somehow superior b/c you live in a "better" state? Oh...the ignorance...mean, arrogance.

shiite happens......my credit report said I was dead for over 10 years. How did you think that went. Had no problems renewing a US Passport during that time, though.

What's with the state hating. Why do you hate your fellow country people? What the heck is wrong with you?

[ggait]

Clearly those propping up e-verify have not worked in construction, farming, landscaping, hospitality cleaning, residential handyman, just name a handful.

I've told this story before.

A good friend owns a hotel in a summer resort town. A few years back, his new HR manager started having severe difficulty maintaining a full staff. When the owner inquired what was up, the new HR manager mentioned that the hotel had started using e-verify. E-verify is optional, but the HR manager thought it was the right thing to do. Owner agreed, but asked the HR person to call around to see if the other hotels in town used e-verify or not. After calling around, they learned that no hotels in town did. This hotel stopped using e-verify and reverted to relying upon paper documents. Voila! Staffing problem solved.

E-verify isn't perfect, but it is much harder to beat than paper documents (which are easily faked, borrowed or stolen). Which is why the majority of illegals work ABOVE THE TABLE! They actually PAY PAYROLL TAXES! Even though they are ineligible for the benefits funded by such taxes.

But you can't turn on mandatory e-verify until you figure out the terms of the de jure amnesty. Because everyone (R and D) knows we can't create 10-15 million unemployable domestic refugees.

We already have de facto amnesty -- the 10-15 million people are here and they are never ever ever leaving. We all know that the de jure amnesty is basically going to be something like the Gang of 8. Once Congress determines the de jure amnesty (which even Hannity and Bill O'Reilly supported in the halcyon pre-Trump days of 2013), you can turn on e-verify and we're done.

You build an electronic wall at the workplace. So then no stupid physical wall is needed. Except in a few limited locations (like San Diego) where it pretty much already exists.

QED.

[foreverlax]

Further insights from an expert -

"There is another issue in eliminating birthright citizenship - the difficult logistics, some of which are contrary to what I think are well-established traditions of America! Do we want to live in a society where, as in Europe, every one has a national identity card that verifies your citizenship and nationality that you must present wherever you go, like a hospital? Because that would be necessary in order to implement birthright citizenship.

(Do you know that only one-third of all Americans have _ever_ had a US passport? What will we do to prove citizenship? Require everyone have a current, valid passport?)

Also note that the US tradition in our citizenship and naturalization laws has always been that we don’t care what _other_ countries do. But if we eliminated birthright citizenship we would have to care about the law of the country of a parent’s citizenship, otherwise children would born stateless in the US! (Example: graduate students in the US from x foreign country, have a child in the US but under the law of the parents’ citizenship they cannot transmit citizenship to a child born abroad…). "

What will we do to prove citizenship? Kansas woman told birth certificate wasn’t enough to prove citizenship for passport

HAH...Kansas, what a shock!!

Is this a bigotted comment? Not sure what's a shock about Kansas......are you somehow superior b/c you live in a "better" state? Oh...the ignorance...mean, arrogance.

You'd be better off blaming tRump for changing FEDERAL requirments that, I guess, were made. If you read the linked article, you would understand the US Passport was processed at a FEDERAL facility in texas.

What's with the state hating. Why do you hate your fellow country people? What the heck is wrong with you?

NO....What the heck is bigoted about my comment. Kansas, i.e. Kobach has been at ground zero regarding the made-up crisis of voter fraud. Thought you knew that?

Kobach supports the experimental financial disaster that was created under Brownback, which is the same crap they are offering us national.

Has nothing to do with where I live....nor ignorance vs arrogance.

State hating? Great people in every state, for sure. POS in every state as well. Right?

Hate other Americans?? Yup, I do hate the haters.

What's wrong with me? Not much, thankfully.

[a fan]

We already have de facto amnesty -- the 10-15 million people are here and they are never ever ever leaving. We all know that the de jure amnesty is basically going to be something like the Gang of 8. Once Congress determines the de jure amnesty (which even Hannity and Bill O'Reilly supported in the halcyon pre-Trump days of 2013), you can turn on e-verify and we're done.

Fake conservatives (Republicans) will never go for this. And their logic is immaculate: "We can't possibly give all this people Amnesty. "Therefore", we're going to do nothing about this, and not only give those that are currently here amnesty, but those who continue to come every year...total and complete amnesty".

You can't argue with a bunch of people who think that logic is "fake news".

So.....shocker, no immigration reform yet again, after making it soooooo important during the elections.

[ggait]

An experts view on a National I.D. card -

A social security number run through a data base is pretty darn close to a national ID card.

But a SSN can be easily faked, stolen or borrowed in paper form when not cross-checked against a database. It really isn't hard to understand guys.

[ggait]

Fake conservatives (Republicans) will never go for this. And their logic is immaculate: "We can't possibly give all this people Amnesty. "Therefore", we're going to do nothing about this, and not only give those that are currently here amnesty, but those who continue to come every year...total and complete amnesty".

It wasn't all that long ago when the GOP (including Hannity!) signed onto the Gang of 8.

Trump too will pass. We just don't know exactly how long that will take. But let's start on that next Tuesday!

#NeverTrump

[runrussellrun]

Clearly those propping up e-verify have not worked in construction, farming, landscaping, hospitality cleaning, residential handyman, just name a handful.

I've told this story before.

A good friend owns a hotel in a summer resort town. A few years back, his new HR manager started having severe difficulty maintaining a full staff. When the owner inquired what was up, the new HR manager mentioned that the hotel had started using e-verify. E-verify is optional, but the HR manager thought it was the right thing to do. Owner agreed, but asked the HR person to call around to see if the other hotels in town used e-verify or not. After calling around, they learned that no hotels in town did. This hotel stopped using e-verify and reverted to relying upon paper documents. Voila! Staffing problem solved.

E-verify isn't perfect, but it is much harder to beat than paper documents (which are easily faked, borrowed or stolen). Which is why the majority of illegals work ABOVE THE TABLE! They actually PAY PAYROLL TAXES! Even though they are ineligible for the benefits funded by such taxes.

But you can't turn on mandatory e-verify until you figure out the terms of the de jure amnesty. Because everyone (R and D) knows we can't create 10-15 million unemployable domestic refugees.

We already have de facto amnesty -- the 10-15 million people are here and they are never ever ever leaving. We all know that the de jure amnesty is basically going to be something like the Gang of 8. Once Congress determines the de jure amnesty (which even Hannity and Bill O'Reilly supported in the halcyon pre-Trump days of 2013), you can turn on e-verify and we're done.

You build an electronic wall at the workplace. So then no stupid physical wall is needed. Except in a few limited locations (like San Diego) where it pretty much already exists.

QED.

Be honest, was your friends hotel hiring illegals? b/c paper, or electronic, they require the same information. The former just doesn't have to be submitted or checked. Friend use ADP for payroll?

[foreverlax]

Who knew

It’s simple to me to fix it. I think you control the border first. You create a pathway for those people that are here — you don’t say you’ve got to go home. And that is a position that I’ve evolved on. Because, you know what, it’s got to be resolved. The majority of people here, if some people have criminal records you can send them home, but if people are here, law-abiding, participating for years, their kids are born here, you know, first secure the border, pathway to citizenship, done. Whatever little penalties you wanna put in there, if you want, but then it’s done. You can’t let the problem continue, it’s got to stop.

Hannity 11/8/12

[runrussellrun]

Further insights from an expert -

"There is another issue in eliminating birthright citizenship - the difficult logistics, some of which are contrary to what I think are well-established traditions of America! Do we want to live in a society where, as in Europe, every one has a national identity card that verifies your citizenship and nationality that you must present wherever you go, like a hospital? Because that would be necessary in order to implement birthright citizenship.

(Do you know that only one-third of all Americans have _ever_ had a US passport? What will we do to prove citizenship? Require everyone have a current, valid passport?)

Also note that the US tradition in our citizenship and naturalization laws has always been that we don’t care what _other_ countries do. But if we eliminated birthright citizenship we would have to care about the law of the country of a parent’s citizenship, otherwise children would born stateless in the US! (Example: graduate students in the US from x foreign country, have a child in the US but under the law of the parents’ citizenship they cannot transmit citizenship to a child born abroad…). "

What will we do to prove citizenship? Kansas woman told birth certificate wasn’t enough to prove citizenship for passport

HAH...Kansas, what a shock!!

Is this a bigotted comment? Not sure what's a shock about Kansas......are you somehow superior b/c you live in a "better" state? Oh...the ignorance...mean, arrogance.

You'd be better off blaming tRump for changing FEDERAL requirments that, I guess, were made. If you read the linked article, you would understand the US Passport was processed at a FEDERAL facility in texas.

What's with the state hating. Why do you hate your fellow country people? What the heck is wrong with you?

NO....What the heck is bigoted about my comment. Kansas, i.e. Kobach has been at ground zero regarding the made-up crisis of voter fraud. Thought you knew that?

Kobach supports the experimental financial disaster that was created under Brownback, which is the same turd they are offering us national.

Has nothing to do with where I live....nor ignorance vs arrogance.

State hating? Great people in every state, for sure. POS in every state as well. Right?

Hate other Americans?? Yup, I do hate the haters.

What's wrong with me? Not much, thankfully.

The Federal Government, in this case a Texas location, denied the US Passport. Massachusettes..........shocking. California......shocking. Guess I should have known you were talking about kobach when disparaging Kansas.

[youthathletics]

System already exists. Just make everyone get a US Passport.

Its coming....Real ID Act. From CNBC

Starting Oct. 1, 2020, every adult boarding any federally regulated aircraft — including domestic flights — will need a Real ID-compliant license or they will need to show an alternative form of identification (such as a passport, "enhanced ID," Global Entry card or other acceptable forms of ID) at security.

[runrussellrun]

An experts view on a National I.D. card -

A social security number run through a data base is pretty darn close to a national ID card.

But a SSN can be easily faked, stolen or borrowed in paper form when not cross-checked against a database. It really isn't hard to understand guys.

Of course it can be faked. So can your debit or credit card. If my, or your, SS# is assigned to a male, aged 55, but a 22 year old is using it, pretty darn easy to understand who the number belongs too. Funny, when my kids worked this summer, they had no problem providing birth certificates, US Passports, school Photo IDS and SS #'s . One even had a drivers license.

Interesting that your Hotel friend couldn't find anyone to work at a resort town. Guess college or HS kids don't work anymore.

[old salt]

afan asked:
UNLESS your plan is to simply give everyone already here a work visa and/or citizenship.

Yes. That's precisely my plan. Every worker & family, without a felony record, who is employed & not receiving public assistance of any sort.
Work contingent residency visa, not citizenship, but which accrues points to their benefit, in a lengthy merit based earned citizenship process.
De Jurie amnesty for the 10-15 million domestically employed (under fake documents) to which ggait refers.

That becomes the amnesty magnet which prompts the rush on our southern border if we don't have it secured.
Bringing in more workers to work cheaper on the underground market & be in place for the next amnesty.

[runrussellrun]

All for giving "amnesty" to illegals, provided they get paid what is due to them. Overtime and minimum wage please. Because the hours are already documented, right?

[a fan]

If that's you position oldsalt, why build a wall, when the issue is temporary? Use our troops for what the Constitution intended: defend our borders.

Send 50k troops down (or whatever is needed) to turn anyone back, pass the law, give all illegals that are here work visas/citizenship, flip E verify on-----and then crossing the border becomes pointless because no one who does can get a job.

Boom. Done. If we're not shipping anyone out, this whole exercise gets real easy real fast. We just have to do it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

System already exists. Just make everyone get a US Passport.

Its coming....Real ID Act. From CNBC

Starting Oct. 1, 2020, every adult boarding any federally regulated aircraft — including domestic flights — will need a Real ID-compliant license or they will need to show an alternative form of identification (such as a passport, "enhanced ID," Global Entry card or other acceptable forms of ID) at security.

Old News. I was issued an ID in the Summer of 2016. The new ID is a seal that is on your driver's license. May cost a little more and requires more documentation. People who don't really fly, may opt for a regular driver's license or people that use E-Passport or travel with a passport out of habit... The conversion was supposed to take place sooner but seems to have been extended.