All things Chinese CoronaVirus

[Typical Lax Dad]

Bravo. Accurate indeed. At least JHU admits it.
There are in fact different expectations for different people.
Raised expectations for US and Israel.
Lowered/No expectations for China, Iran and everyone else with regard to quality of life/energy/pollution/trade/human rights.
This explains many problems relating to the left.
And It's important to point out this also explains many issues in the US itself, too.

The only thing admitted was the truth. I suspect what seem to be your inferences about the left based on this admission do not follow rigorously from what you see as this admission. I stated a single principle of life (there are others), which is not really leftist, I think it is universal, second nature to most humans, just not thought about and realized by clowns like VDH when trying to spin some argument. VDH's article is full of this kind of blindness.

It's a study really.

Looking at America and the generations of immigrints. You have some families that have been in the US for generations and show generational poverty and lack of education. Then you have others who immigrate and as first generation "poor," ignore their past and do great things like go to Yale, become business owners etc etc.

Why is that? I'd say it's that very attitude of expecting more from some, less from others. I think it's a handed-down victimhood and it's b.s.

Back to the world view, patting China on the head is an example of the same thing. How long has China been a majorly advanced civilization, a role model of education, literature, art, culture etc? Yet we give them a pass on terrible human rights violations and major pollution.

Makes no sense to me.

But I guess, those poor Chinese, with their communism, just aren't cultured or advanced enough to "get it," right?

list names of three families you know in which nobody has been upwardly mobile in generations?

[foreverlax]

It's a study really.

Looking at America and the generations of immigrints. You have some families that have been in the US for generations and show generational poverty and lack of education. Then you have others who immigrate and as first generation "poor," ignore their difficult past and go on to do great things like go to Yale, be pilalrs of the community, become business owners etc etc.

Why is that? I'd say it's that very attitude of expecting more from some, less from others. I think the negative comes from handed-down victimhood and it's b.s.

Read the book Outliers: The Story of Success, by Malcom Gladwell, which explores the "why"...

In this stunning new book, Malcolm Gladwell takes us on an intellectual journey through the world of "outliers"--the best and the brightest, the most famous and the most successful. He asks the question: what makes high-achievers different?

His answer is that we pay too much attention to what successful people are like, and too little attention to where they are from: that is, their culture, their family, their generation, and the idiosyncratic experiences of their upbringing.

[MDlaxfan76]

Bravo. Accurate indeed. At least JHU admits it.
There are in fact different expectations for different people.
Raised expectations for US and Israel.
Lowered/No expectations for China, Iran and everyone else with regard to quality of life/energy/pollution/trade/human rights.
This explains many problems relating to the left.
And It's important to point out this also explains many issues in the US itself, too.

The only thing admitted was the truth. I suspect what seem to be your inferences about the left based on this admission do not follow rigorously from what you see as this admission. I stated a single principle of life (there are others), which is not really leftist, I think it is universal, second nature to most humans, just not thought about and realized by clowns like VDH when trying to spin some argument. VDH's article is full of this kind of blindness.

It's a study really.

Looking at America and the generations of immigrints. You have some families that have been in the US for generations and show generational poverty and lack of education. Then you have others who immigrate and as first generation "poor," ignore their past and do great things like go to Yale, become business owners etc etc.

Why is that? I'd say it's that very attitude of expecting more from some, less from others. I think it's a handed-down victimhood and it's b.s.

Back to the world view, patting China on the head is an example of the same thing. How long has China been a majorly advanced civilization, a role model of education, literature, art, culture etc? Yet we give them a pass on terrible human rights violations and major pollution.

Makes no sense to me.

But I guess, those poor Chinese, with their communism, just aren't cultured or advanced enough to "get it," right?

list names of three families you know in which nobody has been upwardly mobile in generations?

Much less ANY "immigrant families"!
Pretty sure Kram is referring to descendants of slaves, through Jim Crow etc...slaves being "immigrants" after all.

But even then, total ignorant BS. But let's cut him a bit of slack, as I suspect he doesn't actually know any such families of descendants of slaves...Kram likely "knows" a person here or there, but an entire family??

Kram,
On the Chinese I think you hear a heck of a lot more about their human rights abuses from moderates and left-leaning Americans, and the media they follow, than you do from whatever you might describe the Trump folks and the right-wing media. You'd hear the same concerns from plenty of old-school conservatives as well, but they're largely muzzled or pushed out of the GOP at this point.

I'm not sure whether it's because the Trump folks' focus is all about money, not rights, or perhaps they actually vibe with the Chinese concern about an ethnic minority, and oh yeah, it's those Muslims...and harsh responses and controls by government seem just fine to them.

Probably a mix, mostly depending on whatever Trump tells his cult.

[old salt]

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

The Cult of West Shaming

This is how I know you aren't following a wide range of media outlets. I see daily newspaper, magazine and other outlet posts and constant stories about the Chinese concentration camps. Especially with the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, there are constant calls to hold China accountable. With all the rabble rousing about China's trade policy in the White House, there is absolutely no concern about their human rights abuses. I see tons of support for the Iranian protests, and concern for the Iranian citizens. Your article doesn't mention the Iraq protests, but they're in there too.

The "woke elites" are complaining about everything and trying to do something, but you just don't see it due to your media bubble.

The "woke right" isn't complaining and isn't doing anything except criticizing the left and moderates. Inaction speaks louder than words.

.. ...media bubble = Wash Post subscriber & MSNBC watcher. Hardly my sole sources of info.

You left out this part :
Yet activist groups aren’t calling for divestment, boycotts, and sanctions against Beijing in the same way they target Israel.

[old salt]

jhu72:
It never occurs to know nothings like VDH that Israel comes in for more criticism than China because Israel is a democracy, supposedly, and should know better. More is expected of them! China and Iran are not. Conversely, China and Iran come in for praise when they behave responsibly because it is not generally expected of them and Israel does not get praised, because it is expected of Israel! I realize this is probably too deep for know nothings.

Accurate explanation by 72.

Yeah. The usual excuse, rationalizing the double standard.

[foreverlax]

jhu72:
It never occurs to know nothings like VDH that Israel comes in for more criticism than China because Israel is a democracy, supposedly, and should know better. More is expected of them! China and Iran are not. Conversely, China and Iran come in for praise when they behave responsibly because it is not generally expected of them and Israel does not get praised, because it is expected of Israel! I realize this is probably too deep for know nothings.

Accurate explanation by 72.

Yeah. The usual excuse, rationalizing the double standard.

Double standards and hypocrisy is all the rage, until it's your team...then comes the rationalization.

[MDlaxfan76]

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

The Cult of West Shaming

This is how I know you aren't following a wide range of media outlets. I see daily newspaper, magazine and other outlet posts and constant stories about the Chinese concentration camps. Especially with the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, there are constant calls to hold China accountable. With all the rabble rousing about China's trade policy in the White House, there is absolutely no concern about their human rights abuses. I see tons of support for the Iranian protests, and concern for the Iranian citizens. Your article doesn't mention the Iraq protests, but they're in there too.

The "woke elites" are complaining about everything and trying to do something, but you just don't see it due to your media bubble.

The "woke right" isn't complaining and isn't doing anything except criticizing the left and moderates. Inaction speaks louder than words.

.. ...media bubble = Wash Post subscriber & MSNBC watcher. Hardly my sole sources of info.

You left out this part :
Yet activist groups aren’t calling for divestment, boycotts, and sanctions against Beijing in the same way they target Israel.

You really don't see the difference?

We support Israel financially and militarily precisely because it is a democracy, ostensibly with support for individual and minority rights. While we recognize that they live in a very hostile neighborhood, and thus very much need our support, an existential need, with that support comes expectations. So, when Israel's government tacks toward authoritarian measures, we have serious issues with that (yes, there are those who are Palestinian supporters who are on the 'left', but so too are some conservatives alarmed by authoritarian over steps by the Israeli government.)

Do we have those same expectations of China?
No, but that doesn't mean that we are in any way approving of their authoritarian system, indeed they are far more adversary than ally. We want to move them to better behaviors and choices, but we don't have the same expectations, as they simply would not reflect current realities of how their system works. Ultimately, we want that system to reform. We've seen progress over the last 30 years, but steps backward as well.

Pretty darn clear differences.

[holmes435]

.. ...media bubble = Wash Post subscriber & MSNBC watcher. Hardly my sole sources of info.

You left out this part :
Yet activist groups aren’t calling for divestment, boycotts, and sanctions against Beijing in the same way they target Israel.

Ah, so you've seen that most of the stuff in the article you posted isn't true.

Activist groups ARE calling for divestment, boycotts, and sanctions against Beijing

[old salt]

Ahead of meeting goals. The question remains, what are China's actual goals and pollution output relative to Europe and the rest of the good, "green" nations. etc.?
As JHU pointed out. We all treat china with kid gloves and pat them on their heads for every little step.

China's goals are to combat GW. They are at least as dedicated to this as we are. More dedicated to this than Trump. Their starting point and timeline and methodology are not ours, but that does not change the fact that they recognize a problem and are willing to (and have) taken actions to mitigate both the problem and its effects. On this subject (the need for change and beginning to address it) I see them no better no worse than the US, and much better than Trump. This is NOT saying their emission levels are as good as ours, which is an unrealistic and silly metric when comparing the world's roughly 200 nations with 200 different starting points, technical capabilities and level of development. The western democracies should be leading the way in this metric (unless of course you are Donald Trump).

Flash. From inside my media bubble. Activist groups in China ? .. :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... story.html

When Chinese authorities declared three years ago that they would limit the use of coal energy and canceled more than 100 coal power projects, climate campaigners cheered what seemed to be a sweeping policy reversal for the world’s largest greenhouse gas emitter.
They may have celebrated too soon.
In the past two years, China has expanded its coal fleet by 43 gigawatts — roughly the entire coal-fired capacity of Germany — according to Global Energy Monitor, a group that tracks construction in the Chinese power industry using public announcements and satellite images.

Excluding China, global coal power capacity would otherwise be dropping as countries in Europe and elsewhere decommission old facilities and switch to other energy sources, the group said in a report released Wednesday.
“To meet Paris climate goals, climate scientists say global coal power needs to be reduced 70 percent by 2030 and phased out completely by 2050,” said Christine Shearer of Global Energy Monitor. “China’s proposal to continue adding new coal power capacity through 2035 flies directly in the face of these needed emission reductions, and jeopardizes global climate goals.”

Researchers say China and ­climate-change efforts worldwide are facing a crucial juncture. After years of progress with air quality and declining coal consumption, China’s leaders in recent weeks have signaled a subtle shift as they manage the slowest growth levels in almost three decades and a damaging trade war with the United States.

In a departure from earlier speeches, Premier Li Keqiang last month urged the coal industry to play a role in securing the country’s energy supply. Weeks earlier, top officials said they would relax air-quality controls this winter, perhaps to buoy important but dirty drivers of economic activity, such as steel mills and construction. And at least 40 new coal mines have been approved this year, China’s energy administration told reporters last month.

“The coal industry’s propaganda is stressing that it’s imperative to maintain coal’s primary position in China’s energy mix, and that narrative is now back in favor,” said Yixiu Wu, a researcher at Chinadialogue, an environmental nonprofit in Beijing. “The trajectory is worrying because we’re right in the window when China is shaping its 14th five-year plan.”

China’s current five-year plan has set a coal-power cap of 1,100 gigawatts. But some in China’s energy industry are pushing for that cap to be raised to 1,400 gigawatts in the next plan, researchers say. Global Energy Monitor says China’s coal power capacity must decline beginning in 2022 for China to keep global warming under two degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit).

At the central government level, Chinese leaders for years have trumpeted their commitment to shift to green growth after relying for decades on low-value manufacturing and resource-extractive industries that caused thick smog and polluted soil. China’s leader, Xi Jinping, positioned himself as a champion of sustainability after signing the 2016 Paris climate agreement, pledging that the country’s carbon emissions would peak by 2030.
Propaganda officials these days produce books and classroom materials to promote Xi’s “Ecological Civilization” concept with collections of his thoughts and sayings, often accompanied by imagery of lush mountains and blue rivers.

The picture on the ground is murkier. To be sure, China’s coal consumption peaked in 2013 and gradually declined, although it has ticked upward again since 2017.
In 2016, China’s top economic planning authorities, worried about the frenzied pace of new coal power plant construction and air pollution, called for nearly half of China’s provinces to stop building the facilities. In January 2017, central government energy officials froze 103 projects, including the 2,000-megawatt Zhongxing power plant in Shandong province, in eastern China.
Just two months later, provincial authorities gave the go-ahead anyway. Shandong officials approved Zhongxing as an “energy efficiency demonstration project,” making it exempt from the national freeze.
Elsewhere in the province, other coal projects roared ahead. By the time a central government environmental protection team inspected Shandong in 2018, it found a local company that had, in the space of five years, illegally built 45 coal power facilities that produced the equivalent of Australia’s coal-fired capacity. That disclosure forced the company to lay off 180,000 workers.

Shearer, from Global Energy Monitor, said Chinese local officials were under tremendous pressure to meet economic targets and often looked the other way if coal facilities were generating jobs.
“These are massive projects,” she said. “Once a coal plant has been permitted, there’s momentum and political pressure to let that plant go through to commissioning.”

In its report released this week, Shearer’s group named two dozen plants that have resumed construction, from Inner Mongolia in the north to Guangdong province bordering Hong Kong. Upon completion, they would add about 150 gigawatts, nearly the entire existing coal power capacity of the European Union.

[kramerica.inc]

Bravo. Accurate indeed. At least JHU admits it.
There are in fact different expectations for different people.
Raised expectations for US and Israel.
Lowered/No expectations for China, Iran and everyone else with regard to quality of life/energy/pollution/trade/human rights.
This explains many problems relating to the left.
And It's important to point out this also explains many issues in the US itself, too.

The only thing admitted was the truth. I suspect what seem to be your inferences about the left based on this admission do not follow rigorously from what you see as this admission. I stated a single principle of life (there are others), which is not really leftist, I think it is universal, second nature to most humans, just not thought about and realized by clowns like VDH when trying to spin some argument. VDH's article is full of this kind of blindness.

It's a study really.

Looking at America and the generations of immigrints. You have some families that have been in the US for generations and show generational poverty and lack of education. Then you have others who immigrate and as first generation "poor," ignore their past and do great things like go to Yale, become business owners etc etc.

Why is that? I'd say it's that very attitude of expecting more from some, less from others. I think it's a handed-down victimhood and it's b.s.

Back to the world view, patting China on the head is an example of the same thing. How long has China been a majorly advanced civilization, a role model of education, literature, art, culture etc? Yet we give them a pass on terrible human rights violations and major pollution.

Makes no sense to me.

But I guess, those poor Chinese, with their communism, just aren't cultured or advanced enough to "get it," right?

list names of three families you know in which nobody has been upwardly mobile in generations?

Much less ANY "immigrant families"!
Pretty sure Kram is referring to descendants of slaves, through Jim Crow etc...slaves being "immigrants" after all.

But even then, total ignorant BS. But let's cut him a bit of slack, as I suspect he doesn't actually know any such families of descendants of slaves...Kram likely "knows" a person here or there, but an entire family??

Off the top of my head I personally know families in Maryland, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio and New York who have at best been stagnant and in two cases regressed with levels of education/finances generation over generation. None descendants of slaves. But you make a valid point about another group when you see the generational poverty in the South and in many urban centers.

[MDlaxfan76]

Bravo. Accurate indeed. At least JHU admits it.
There are in fact different expectations for different people.
Raised expectations for US and Israel.
Lowered/No expectations for China, Iran and everyone else with regard to quality of life/energy/pollution/trade/human rights.
This explains many problems relating to the left.
And It's important to point out this also explains many issues in the US itself, too.

The only thing admitted was the truth. I suspect what seem to be your inferences about the left based on this admission do not follow rigorously from what you see as this admission. I stated a single principle of life (there are others), which is not really leftist, I think it is universal, second nature to most humans, just not thought about and realized by clowns like VDH when trying to spin some argument. VDH's article is full of this kind of blindness.

It's a study really.

Looking at America and the generations of immigrints. You have some families that have been in the US for generations and show generational poverty and lack of education. Then you have others who immigrate and as first generation "poor," ignore their past and do great things like go to Yale, become business owners etc etc.

Why is that? I'd say it's that very attitude of expecting more from some, less from others. I think it's a handed-down victimhood and it's b.s.

Back to the world view, patting China on the head is an example of the same thing. How long has China been a majorly advanced civilization, a role model of education, literature, art, culture etc? Yet we give them a pass on terrible human rights violations and major pollution.

Makes no sense to me.

But I guess, those poor Chinese, with their communism, just aren't cultured or advanced enough to "get it," right?

list names of three families you know in which nobody has been upwardly mobile in generations?

Much less ANY "immigrant families"!
Pretty sure Kram is referring to descendants of slaves, through Jim Crow etc...slaves being "immigrants" after all.

But even then, total ignorant BS. But let's cut him a bit of slack, as I suspect he doesn't actually know any such families of descendants of slaves...Kram likely "knows" a person here or there, but an entire family??

Off the top of my head I personally know families in Maryland, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio and New York who have at best been stagnant and in two cases regressed with levels of education/finances generation over generation. None descendants of slaves. But you make a valid point about another group when you see the generational poverty in the South and in many urban centers.

hmmm, you must travel in some depressing circles, Kram.
Are there exceptions within these families?

And what actually went wrong with those families, specifically?
Alcoholism or other substance abuse? (this has indeed decimated many families)

Of course, there's also the phenomenon of well educated immigrant fleeing their background who first generation in America was non-english speaking and unable to utilize their prior education or training in a profession here in the US. Their kids had, nevertheless, a much better situation than the parents. In other cases we see families who due to their ethnicity or religion etc in their prior country were unable to be educated or earn a substantial rate, yet get here and find those bounds far less constrained. They work in very low wage jobs, but their kids tend to be able to get ahead through education.

That's very much the typical immigrant story. Not sure what sorts of families, what the pattern would be that would explain that not occurring other than some sort of family trauma. Which of course does happen.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Bravo. Accurate indeed. At least JHU admits it.
There are in fact different expectations for different people.
Raised expectations for US and Israel.
Lowered/No expectations for China, Iran and everyone else with regard to quality of life/energy/pollution/trade/human rights.
This explains many problems relating to the left.
And It's important to point out this also explains many issues in the US itself, too.

The only thing admitted was the truth. I suspect what seem to be your inferences about the left based on this admission do not follow rigorously from what you see as this admission. I stated a single principle of life (there are others), which is not really leftist, I think it is universal, second nature to most humans, just not thought about and realized by clowns like VDH when trying to spin some argument. VDH's article is full of this kind of blindness.

It's a study really.

Looking at America and the generations of immigrints. You have some families that have been in the US for generations and show generational poverty and lack of education. Then you have others who immigrate and as first generation "poor," ignore their past and do great things like go to Yale, become business owners etc etc.

Why is that? I'd say it's that very attitude of expecting more from some, less from others. I think it's a handed-down victimhood and it's b.s.

Back to the world view, patting China on the head is an example of the same thing. How long has China been a majorly advanced civilization, a role model of education, literature, art, culture etc? Yet we give them a pass on terrible human rights violations and major pollution.

Makes no sense to me.

But I guess, those poor Chinese, with their communism, just aren't cultured or advanced enough to "get it," right?

list names of three families you know in which nobody has been upwardly mobile in generations?

Much less ANY "immigrant families"!
Pretty sure Kram is referring to descendants of slaves, through Jim Crow etc...slaves being "immigrants" after all.

But even then, total ignorant BS. But let's cut him a bit of slack, as I suspect he doesn't actually know any such families of descendants of slaves...Kram likely "knows" a person here or there, but an entire family??

Off the top of my head I personally know families in Maryland, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio and New York who have at best been stagnant and in two cases regressed with levels of education/finances generation over generation. None descendants of slaves. But you make a valid point about another group when you see the generational poverty in the South and in many urban centers.

hmmm, you must travel in some depressing circles, Kram.
Are there exceptions within these families?

And what actually went wrong with those families, specifically?
Alcoholism or other substance abuse? (this has indeed decimated many families)

Of course, there's also the phenomenon of well educated immigrant fleeing their background who first generation in America was non-english speaking and unable to utilize their prior education or training in a profession here in the US. Their kids had, nevertheless, a much better situation than the parents. In other cases we see families who due to their ethnicity or religion etc in their prior country were unable to be educated or earn a substantial rate, yet get here and find those bounds far less constrained. They work in very low wage jobs, but their kids tend to be able to get ahead through education.

That's very much the typical immigrant story. Not sure what sorts of families, what the pattern would be that would explain that not occurring other than some sort of family trauma. Which of course does happen.

Job discrimination was “legal” until 1972. That wasn’t that long ago. 18 year olds will just be retiring and about to leave some form of wealth built up over a 40 year working career to kids and grandkids.....Way behind people that started 400 years ago. Housing discrimination was “legal” until 1968. Where you lived and went to school is a predictor of future success.....check back on these people in about 250 years (at least). People fall out of the “middle class” more easily now. It’s been well documented.

[kramerica.inc]

Baltimore MD, HackensackNJ, Geneva NY, Youngstown Ohio, Indianapolis IN,
It’s been a little of everything.
Lots of bad decisions and poor choices.
Hard to pinpoint whether the things like alcoholism, drug use, laziness, child abandonment, were a cause of the issue or a result of the issue.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Baltimore MD, HackensackNJ, Geneva NY, Youngstown Ohio, Indianapolis IN,
It’s been a little of everything.
Lots of bad decisions and poor choices.
Hard to pinpoint whether the things like alcoholism, drug use, laziness, child abandonment, were a cause of the issue or a result of the issue.

Or that they are humans.

[a fan]

Bravo. Accurate indeed. At least JHU admits it.
There are in fact different expectations for different people.
Raised expectations for US and Israel.
Lowered/No expectations for China, Iran and everyone else with regard to quality of life/energy/pollution/trade/human rights.
This explains many problems relating to the left.

Apparently you speak for the right. What are YOU doing about China? Is that a computer you're using to answer me? And where did the components in your computer come from?

And let me see if I get what you're saying here: do you think that we should LOWER our expectations of Western countries to pull them in line with Fascist nations like Iran and China? That's the plan?

Put the left----the REAL American left in charge of America? They'd stop trading with China tomorrow. So why are you complaining?

I disagree with that path, btw.

[Kismet]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/co ... -response/

"Trump Has Sabotaged America’s Coronavirus Response
As it improvises its way through a public health crisis, the United States has never been less prepared for a pandemic.

The epidemic control efforts unfolding today in China—including placing some 100 million citizens on lockdown, shutting down a national holiday, building enormous quarantine hospitals in days’ time, and ramping up 24-hour manufacturing of medical equipment—are indeed gargantuan. It’s impossible to watch them without wondering, “What would we do? How would my government respond if this virus spread across my country?”

For the United States, the answers are especially worrying because the government has intentionally rendered itself incapable. In 2018, the Trump administration fired the government’s entire pandemic response chain of command, including the White House management infrastructure. In numerous phone calls and emails with key agencies across the U.S. government, the only consistent response I encountered was distressed confusion. If the United States still has a clear chain of command for pandemic response, the White House urgently needs to clarify what it is

If the United States still has a clear chain of command for pandemic response, the White House urgently needs to clarify what it is—not just for the public but for the government itself, which largely finds itself in the dark."

[Trinity]

Jared has this, I think.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Jared has this, I think.

He has read 6 books on it.

[Trinity]

Nobody makes the skinny suit look worse.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Nobody makes the skinny suit look worse.

You ever notice how Jared resembles Damien from The Omen?