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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by a fan »

ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:06 am History shows the worst budget busting comes from giving all the keys to the GOP. Dumb tax cuts, big defense spending.
This isn't the full story. Yes, they spend big on defense, but during Bush and Trump led GOP Congressional majorities, social spending increased at two to three times the rate of defense spending. It's FoxNation nonsense that the Dems push the handouts and socialist spending. The Republicans are WORSE on this count.

Look no further than McConnell's recent brag on the last spending bill that he brought $1 Billion in pork and handouts to Kentucky alone.
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by dislaxxic »

GOP under DOPUS IMPOTUS:

Image

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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Brooklyn
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Brooklyn »

Image


This is what Republicans call "justice".
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
seacoaster
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by seacoaster »

Picture says a thousand words Dis. Perfect.

Thought this was a pretty good read on impeachment Article 2; not sure if it has been posted for those who might be interested:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... as/605635/

"Perhaps nothing can persuade Republican senators to convict President Donald Trump, but on Friday, as Representative Zoe Lofgren deftly explained why Trump’s blanket defiance of every House subpoena and request for witnesses was an impeachable obstruction of Congress, the mood in the room noticeably shifted. I had the good fortune to be sitting in the Senate gallery to witness this myself. Republican senators whose attention had wandered refocused one by one until—unusually for this trial—the entire Senate was listening intently to an argument and seemed to be considering it seriously.

The reason for the sudden attentiveness is not far to seek. Representative Lofgren was telling senators of both parties that Trump’s response to the House investigations that led to his impeachment was not merely a middle finger raised to Democrats, but an affront to Congress as a whole. She made clear that, left unrebuked, Trump’s defiance will gut the constitutional authority of both House and Senate not merely to check the personal excesses of any given president, but to oversee the entire executive branch. In short, Lofgren was forcefully reminding Republican senators that Trump is a threat to their own legitimate constitutional power.

On Saturday, Trump’s lawyer Pat Philbin tried to extinguish any flickers of enlightened self-interest among Republicans by arguing that Trump was entitled to stonewall the House because the House hadn’t properly authorized its own subpoenas. Like so many contentions of the president’s defenders, this is malarkey thinly draped with plausible-sounding distortions of facts, rules, court opinions, and the Constitution itself.

Let’s begin with the Constitution. Article II grants Congress an array of powers, primarily the power to legislate. But it’s easy to forget that the predominant subject of legislation is the executive branch. In our era, there is a tendency to think of the entire executive branch—the military, the innumerable civilian departments, agencies, commissions, and boards—as a kind of organic extension of the person of the president. But under the Constitution, every single component of the executive branch other than the president himself exists only because Congress once passed a statute saying that it should, and thereafter enacted annual appropriations to provide for its continuance. Moreover, most of what the 2 million or so federal employees who staff the executive do every day is dictated by a congressional statute or a regulation promulgated pursuant to such a statute.

Therefore, under the Constitution, Congress has both a responsibility and a right to inquire closely into the operations of the federal agencies, programs, and employees it authorizes, regulates, and funds. The power of inquiry includes the power to use subpoenas to compel production of testimony and documents. The Supreme Court has repeatedly recognized this “oversight power” and held it to be “coextensive with the power to legislate.”

Courts have held that a legislative demand for information under the oversight power must relate to a “valid legislative purpose.” But the only instances when congressional subpoenas have been held out of bounds for not relating to such a purpose involved demands for information about private persons. The Supreme Court has never found a congressional inquiry into the operations of the government itself or the behavior of government employees in their official capacities to lack a valid legislative purpose.

In addition to the oversight power implied by its legislative authority, Congress possesses enhanced constitutional authority under the impeachment clauses to inquire into the conduct of the president and other impeachable “civil officers.” The “sole power of impeachment” granted to the House of Representatives by Article II, Section 3, would be meaningless if the House could not compel production of the evidence necessary to determine whether impeachable conduct had occurred.

It is crucial to understand that the general oversight power and the specific impeachment-investigation power are not mutually exclusive. In other words, if Congress is concerned that a president is acting contrary to law or misbehaving in his direction of agencies of the executive branch, that is a proper subject of its oversight authority. Inquiring into the conduct of the executive branch, including its constitutional head, is the purpose of the oversight power. The fact that the president’s behavior in a particular matter might become grounds for impeachment doesn’t exempt that matter from ordinary oversight.

With this constitutional background in mind, consider the sequence of events that led to Trump’s impeachment.

On August 28, 2019, Politico reported that aid to Ukraine previously authorized by Congress was being withheld by the Trump administration. Within a week, The Washington Post reported that the hold might have been placed to induce Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter. This was obviously a matter of legitimate legislative concern because it related both to the proper expenditure of particular congressionally appropriated funds and to more general issues of the conduct of American foreign policy and election integrity. Not to mention it also implicated the president’s own conduct.

Accordingly, on September 9, three standing House committees—Foreign Affairs, Intelligence, and Oversight—announced investigations into the blocked aid. Two days later, on September 11, the White House released the hold. Over the ensuing weeks, the committees issued a series of subpoenas to the administration for testimony and records. The administration complied with none of them, and on October 8, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone sent Speaker Nancy Pelosi a letter declaring a policy of total noncooperation with House investigations.

The president has maintained that policy since. At least 12 administration witnesses sought by the House have declined to appear, on White House instructions. Some current and former government employees have testified in compliance with subpoenas, but all of them did so contrary to White House directives. The House subpoenaed more than 70 categories of documents from executive-branch agencies, including the Departments of State, Defense, and Energy, and the Office of Management and Budget, and received exactly zero documents in return.

This categorical refusal is without precedent or legal justification. Past presidents have certainly resisted production of specific testimony or particular documents. But even then, they have done so by invoking judicially recognized doctrines such as executive privilege (which applies only to communications with the president’s closest advisers and must yield to a showing of need). No recognized privilege authorizes government-wide noncompliance with Congress. No president has ever presumed to order the entire executive branch to refuse to respond to congressional subpoenas, whether issued pursuant to oversight power or as part of a specifically designated impeachment investigation.

This would seem to make the case for obstruction under Article II ironclad. But the president’s lawyers have seized on a peculiarity of the House process in this case.

Although the House investigation into Ukraine was initiated by three standing committees exercising their general oversight power and the subpoena power conferred on them by Rule X of the standing rules of the House, on September 24, Speaker Pelosi announced her support for an impeachment inquiry. But not until October 31 did the House as a whole approve a resolution formally declaring the ongoing investigations to be an impeachment inquiry and laying out the process for its public phase.

The president’s counsel argues that all the subpoenas issued by the Foreign Affairs, Intelligence, and Oversight Committees prior to October 31 were invalid because the House hadn’t formally adopted an impeachment resolution. Therefore, they say, the president had no obligation to comply with any of them, thus exonerating him from obstruction. That is, to be plain, ridiculous. The three House committees that began the investigation on September 9 indisputably had the constitutional authority to do so as part of the oversight power. And they had the express authorization to issue subpoenas under House rules. The president’s position, incredibly, is that if an ongoing oversight investigation begins to produce evidence that might result in impeachment, the committees conducting that investigation somehow lose their subpoena authority until the whole House declares a formal impeachment inquiry.

This is, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely daft. The power of the House to compel presidential disclosure increases once impeachment is contemplated. Some have argued that this increment of constitutional authority is not available unless and until the House formally declares that it is engaging in an impeachment inquiry, a point I have refuted elsewhere. But the White House is now arguing that the ordinary investigative powers of Congress disappear as soon as it becomes evident to House leadership that impeachment should be contemplated.

Not only is this view unfounded in the Constitution, but it would create an absurd catch-22. It is certainly right that the House should not convene a formal impeachment inquiry unless there is substantial evidence upon which to premise so grave a step. But except in a case where the matter at issue has already been investigated by the Senate or outside agencies (as was true with Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton), the only way to get such information is for the House to demand it under its general oversight authority. Trump is saying that, with respect to any subject on which the House might find the president impeachable, he can issue a blanket order to the entire executive branch blocking access to information unless and until the House passes a formal impeachment-inquiry resolution. As long as he can enforce compliance with that order, the House will not get such information … and the result is checkmate.


And even when, as proved to be true here, patriotic, law-abiding executive-branch officials defy his directive and come forward, as long as important witnesses comply with his orders and the entire bureaucracy refuses to produce necessary documentary evidence, he can defend against impeachment based on a “lack of evidence.”

If the Senate, or its Republican members, accept the devious justification for defiance of Congress offered by Trump’s lawyers, they will validate a strategy of complete obstruction of congressional inquiries by this and future presidents. The result is not only to neuter the impeachment power, but more profoundly, to cripple the fundamental check on executive mismanagement, abuse, corruption, and overreach embodied in their own power of oversight."
CU88
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by CU88 »

Peter Brown wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:32 am
foreverlax wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:37 am
Peter Brown wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:25 am
https://www.businessinsider.com/nationa ... on-2019-11

The pace at which Trump has added to the national debt isn't as surprising as it might initially seem. A different picture emerges when you look under the hood.
From the article -
There is a key distinction separating the circumstances behind Trump and Obama's debt figures. Trump inherited an economy undergoing its longest sustained expansion. Obama, on the other hand, entered the White House as the nation veered into a recession that sparked massive stimulus spending and a bailout of the auto industry.
So BHO started out with 2 outs and 2 strikes, while Trump started out on 2nd base.
Conventional economic thinking maintains that deficits will decrease when the economy is healthy as the government pulls back on spending and draws more tax money as a result of lower unemployment.
Correct. So why is the opposite happening?
Marc Goldwein, the policy chief for the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, told Business Insider that there had been a substantial shift in Washington's approach to federal spending in the past several years. Under Obama, Republicans championed fiscal responsibility and called to reduce the deficit — now they've largely tossed it aside.
Agreed. Hypocrite Rs finally prove that they are not fiscally conservative.


To your last point, I do not agree. Most of my peers are republican (from what I can gather), and all of them are concerned about deficits; but like my point to a fan, this is a much more complicated topic than simply saying 'I am for' or 'I am against'.

Perhaps a longer view is necessary to make such judgments. If the economy continues to roar for the next ten years, and if Republicans controlled Congress and the office of POTUS, I'd be willing to bet a sizable sum that deficit reduction would come to fruition. It doesn't do you much good to come into DC and massively cut spending, flat-line the economy, then get kicked out after 4 years, does it?

What we know for certain is the average Democrat desires more government in your life, at almost every level. We know that the average Democrat trusts government far more than the average Republican. The takeaway from those two common sense observations is that Democrats, left to their own devices (with no opposition), would in fact massively enlarge government, raise taxes, and generally chase away much of the creation of real wealth. IE: Socialism, a fan's dreaded word. Leading to economic ruin, as has been shown throughout human history.

WOW.

Where were you when the r's tried this BS "thinking" in Kansas? I love the claim, "if you only gave it more time..."

R's want to control a woman's rights to her own body!

You might have some sort of emotional disorder and are drinking too much the faux news Kool-Aid.
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Peter Brown
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Peter Brown »

a fan wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:32 pm
ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:06 am History shows the worst budget busting comes from giving all the keys to the GOP. Dumb tax cuts, big defense spending.
This isn't the full story. Yes, they spend big on defense, but during Bush and Trump led GOP Congressional majorities, social spending increased at two to three times the rate of defense spending. It's FoxNation nonsense that the Dems push the handouts and socialist spending. The Republicans are WORSE on this count.

Look no further than McConnell's recent brag on the last spending bill that he brought $1 Billion in pork and handouts to Kentucky alone.


Gosh, if only there was a way to actually analyze real tax and spend results for the fiscal health of government. Why, if only we could look at a nonpartisan review of states, maybe that might help disabuse the TDS sufferers on this board from posting flat out faleshoods like the above backscratching.

Oh wait, we have one such analysis.

https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/n ... rch-v1.pdf

Weird, the states with reckless fiscal discipline are:

CT, IL, MA, PA, NY, and CA. Aren't those all reliably Democratic run states?

And the best run states are:

AK, WY, SD, and FL. Aren't those all reliably Republican states?

Help me out here. I am confused. Posters are telling me, a Florida rube, that Dems are smart money managers.

Clearly a coincidence!
foreverlax
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by foreverlax »

old salt wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:23 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:12 pm
I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
The money was appropriated by Congress and signed off by Trump. He wanted an investigation of Biden, which has been determined to be unlawful.

Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.
Which country? Russia? Because there is no evidence that suggests Ukraine meddled...aside from Vlad, Rudy, and Hannity.
Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.
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old salt
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by old salt »

foreverlax wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:13 pm
old salt wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:23 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:12 pm
I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
The money was appropriated by Congress and signed off by Trump. He wanted an investigation of Biden, which has been determined to be unlawful.

Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.
Which country? Russia? Because there is no evidence that suggests Ukraine meddled...aside from Vlad, Rudy, and Hannity.
Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.
except for A Chalupa's friends at the Ukrainian Embassy.
seacoaster
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by seacoaster »

Peter Brown wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:57 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:32 pm
ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:06 am History shows the worst budget busting comes from giving all the keys to the GOP. Dumb tax cuts, big defense spending.
This isn't the full story. Yes, they spend big on defense, but during Bush and Trump led GOP Congressional majorities, social spending increased at two to three times the rate of defense spending. It's FoxNation nonsense that the Dems push the handouts and socialist spending. The Republicans are WORSE on this count.

Look no further than McConnell's recent brag on the last spending bill that he brought $1 Billion in pork and handouts to Kentucky alone.


Gosh, if only there was a way to actually analyze real tax and spend results for the fiscal health of government. Why, if only we could look at a nonpartisan review of states, maybe that might help disabuse the TDS sufferers on this board from posting flat out faleshoods like the above backscratching.

Oh wait, we have one such analysis.

https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/n ... rch-v1.pdf

Weird, the states with reckless fiscal discipline are:

CT, IL, MA, PA, NY, and CA. Aren't those all reliably Democratic run states?

And the best run states are:

AK, WY, SD, and FL. Aren't those all reliably Republican states?

Help me out here. I am confused. Posters are telling me, a Florida rube, that Dems are smart money managers.

Clearly a coincidence!
Any chance you can take this to an appropriate thread?
foreverlax
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by foreverlax »

old salt wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:17 pm
foreverlax wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:13 pm
old salt wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:23 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:12 pm
I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
The money was appropriated by Congress and signed off by Trump. He wanted an investigation of Biden, which has been determined to be unlawful.

Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.
Which country? Russia? Because there is no evidence that suggests Ukraine meddled...aside from Vlad, Rudy, and Hannity.
Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.
except for A Chalupa's friends at the Ukrainian Embassy.
Glad we agree!!
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Kismet
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Kismet »

Hilarious tidbit of the day from Twitter....BOOM!!!

"Susan Hennessey
@Susan_Hennessey
·
22h
Thanks to a little known ruling of the Senate parliamentarian, if it passes #6 while the trial is still in session the manuscript is automatically entered into the congressional record.
Quote Tweet
Mark Mazzetti
@MarkMazzettiNYT
· 23h
John Bolton's book is currently #55 on Amazon"
ggait
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by ggait »

Trinity wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:10 pm General John Kelly says he believes John Bolton, not the President.
So does Mr. Danylyuk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/oleksandr ... han-anyone

Anyone know anything about him -- is he credible? As a former Z aide, seems like he would be freed up to tell his story. He was in that WH Ward Room meeting with Gordo and Fiona Hill. Blows away the idea that there was "no pressure."

Can I get a witness?
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Peter Brown
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Peter Brown »

ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:10 pm
Trinity wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:10 pm General John Kelly says he believes John Bolton, not the President.
So does Mr. Danylyuk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/oleksandr ... han-anyone

Anyone know anything about him -- is he credible? As a former Z aide, seems like he would be freed up to tell his story. He was in that WH Ward Room meeting with Gordo and Fiona Hill. Blows away the idea that there was "no pressure."

Can I get a witness?


"blows away" :lol:

A FaceTime call with a guy who trusted John Bolton the 'most' ( :shock: ) even while the Ukrainian President repeatedly says there was no pressure. oh-kayyyyyy... Wishing for an outcome is not the same as an outcome.
Trinity
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Trinity »

Q poll says 75% of Americans want witnesses and documents.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
seacoaster
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by seacoaster »

Trinity wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:11 pm Q poll says 75% of Americans want witnesses and documents.
https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-de ... aseID=3654

Mitch says, "who cares?"
Trinity
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Trinity »

Trump’s lawyers are the best he could get for free but the percentage of Americans who want a real trial has gone up! He should demand our money back.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Bandito »

Trinity wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:17 pm Trump’s lawyers are the best he could get for free. The percentage of Americans who want a real trial has gone up!
Most Americans know the truth and see how evil the democrats are. Impeachment is a sham and has been weaponized against a President who hasn’t committed one crime. Crawl back to your safe space. 4 more years of Trump is happening. Good luck.
Farfromgeneva is a sissy soy boy
Trinity
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by Trinity »

General Kelly is mad Hillary lost. Practice saying it...President Pence.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
ggait
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by ggait »

Peter Brown wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:00 pm
ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:10 pm
Trinity wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:10 pm General John Kelly says he believes John Bolton, not the President.
So does Mr. Danylyuk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/oleksandr ... han-anyone

Anyone know anything about him -- is he credible? As a former Z aide, seems like he would be freed up to tell his story. He was in that WH Ward Room meeting with Gordo and Fiona Hill. Blows away the idea that there was "no pressure."

Can I get a witness?


"blows away" :lol:

A FaceTime call with a guy who trusted John Bolton the 'most' ( :shock: ) even while the Ukrainian President repeatedly says there was no pressure. oh-kayyyyyy... Wishing for an outcome is not the same as an outcome.
I don't know much about this guy and his credibility. That's why I asked. But he's hardly just a guy on Facetime.

He was an aide of Z's. Dealt directly with Bolton, Volker, Sondland, Fiona Hill, Taylor and Vindman. Was physically present in the WH Ward Room on July 10 when Bolton dispatched Fiona Hill to go break up the drug deal. And his story does call complete BS on the idea that there was no pressure.
Last edited by ggait on Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
seacoaster
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Re: The IMPEACHMENT of President Asterisk

Post by seacoaster »

ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:35 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:00 pm
ggait wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:10 pm
Trinity wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:10 pm General John Kelly says he believes John Bolton, not the President.
So does Mr. Danylyuk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/oleksandr ... han-anyone

Anyone know anything about him -- is he credible? As a former Z aide, seems like he would be freed up to tell his story. He was in that WH Ward Room meeting with Gordo and Fiona Hill. Blows away the idea that there was "no pressure."

Can I get a witness?


"blows away" :lol:

A FaceTime call with a guy who trusted John Bolton the 'most' ( :shock: ) even while the Ukrainian President repeatedly says there was no pressure. oh-kayyyyyy... Wishing for an outcome is not the same as an outcome.
I don't know much about this guy and his credibility. That's why I asked. But he's hardly just guy on Facetime.

He was an aide of Z's. Dealt directly with Bolton, Volker, Sondland, Fiona Hill, Taylor and Vindman. Was physically present in the WH Ward Room on July 10 when Bolton dispatched Fiona Hill to go break up the drug deal. And his story does call complete BS on the idea that there was no pressure.
Gary, you have "TDS."
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