Trump's Russian Collusion

[seacoaster]

Well, Purpura did give a response, but it wasn’t very persuasive. The truth is Trump released the aid because the whistleblower complaint was becoming public and because of Congressional pressure.

You don't know that Congressional pressure alone would not have been enough, or the personal testimonials of Pence & the 3 Amigos after they met with Zelensky.

Purpura laid it all out in a timeline, often using testimony & documents from the House proceedings.

Why mention OS, it's just "more dumb stuff" according to the board counselor

Not true; I never say dumb stuff to OS. Our disagreement is different. You just put all your trust -- and marbles -- in the GOP pocket. It's remarkable. Nothing here is speculative, ambiguous, or subjective (one of your favorites). It's all based on facts from witnesses and documents, and it all hangs together. You are dumb stuff.

[a fan]

And how about the defense's interpretation of what the Constitution states regarding impeachment

Yes. I heard that defense.

They're arguing that the two articles of impeachment used on Nixon (abuse of power and obstruction of justice) were Constitutionally invalid.

And apparently you found this argument persuasive.

This is where we have arrived. Nixon should not have been impeached. That's where corruption is in government in 2019.

Once again you're off base...I was simply pointing out to foreverlax that there was more to the Trump defense than anything Biden

.
I think we'd all agree that when you wrote "there was more to the defense...." implied that you were talking about valid defenses.

They were arguing that abuse of power was not impeachable. You can go to the written 7 page defense if you'd like clarity.

Did you find the argument on, in your words, "what the Constitution states regarding impeachment" persuasive? You implied that you did.

[tech37]

Well, Purpura did give a response, but it wasn’t very persuasive. The truth is Trump released the aid because the whistleblower complaint was becoming public and because of Congressional pressure.

You don't know that Congressional pressure alone would not have been enough, or the personal testimonials of Pence & the 3 Amigos after they met with Zelensky.

Purpura laid it all out in a timeline, often using testimony & documents from the House proceedings.

Why mention OS, it's just "more dumb stuff" according to the board counselor

Not true; I never say dumb stuff to OS. Our disagreement is different. You just put all your trust -- and marbles -- in the GOP pocket. It's remarkable. Nothing here is speculative, ambiguous, or subjective (one of your favorites). It's all based on facts from witnesses and documents, and it all hangs together. You are dumb stuff.

Silly me, I guess you're right... I thought you were referring to the Trump defense as "more dumb stuff. " Forgot what a classy guy you are...

It's all based on a lie, just like Russian Collusion...we'll see. Euchre on Jarrold. Wait for it...

[ToastDunk]

Well, Purpura did give a response, but it wasn’t very persuasive. The truth is Trump released the aid because the whistleblower complaint was becoming public and because of Congressional pressure.

You don't know that Congressional pressure alone would not have been enough, or the personal testimonials of Pence & the 3 Amigos after they met with Zelensky.

Purpura laid it all out in a timeline, often using testimony & documents from the House proceedings.

What timeline was Purpura talking about? This one seems to nail it:

Sept.9, 2019: Atkinson sends a letter to the House Intelligence Committee alerting its members to the existence of the whistleblower complaint. Three House committees announce an investigation into Giuliani/Ukraine.

Sept. 10, 2019: Schiff writes to Maguire demanding a copy of the complaint and related documents.

Sept. 11, 2019: The White House releases military aid.

All just a co-inky-dink?

OS, didn’t Trump approve aid to Ukraine in the years prior to 2019? I thought it was twice before. But no concern of corruption in those instances? Aid flowed freely. Trump is corrupt, has been for a long time. It runs in the family. I think we are seeing more of Trumps corruption in action here.

[a fan]

OS, didn’t Trump approve aid to Ukraine in the years prior to 2019? I thought it was twice before.

He did. In 2018 and 2017. Just as we have for decades.

[seacoaster]

Ann Coulter, the conservative commentator, wrote on Twitter: “Ken Starr litigation strategy: Torture the senate with such an excruciatingly boring presentation that they cannot take another minute of this trial.”

[old salt]

OS, didn’t Trump approve aid to Ukraine in the years prior to 2019? I thought it was twice before.

He did. In 2018 and 2017. Just as we have for decades.

Decades ? We did not provide military aid until after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.
Under Obama, it was non-lethal military aid.
I think Trump only twice approved lethal military aid.
The first time, he was still under investigation for collusion with Russia, so he relented to the Russia hawks in the Senate.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/78887484 ... since-2014
While she acknowledges that corruption has been a huge problem in Ukraine's defense sector, Tregub says that Ukraine's new government, led by President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has confronted it head-on.

"Trump can be happy because right now, Ukraine for real is fighting its defense sector corruption, which was an issue under the former president. But it did not concern security assistance. It was about looting money from the Ukrainian defense budget — Ukrainian money," she said.

A defense corruption scandal involving a close associate of former President Petro Poroshenko rocked Ukraine earlier this year and may have contributed to his election loss to Zelenskiy, a former professional comedian who promised to clean up the government.

In the past, 30% of each defense procurement deal was lost to corruption, Tregub says. New legislation, passed under Zelenskiy, requires more transparency, competition and accountability in defense contracts.

Still, corruption hasn't affected foreign military assistance, Tregub says. Instead, the problem with international aid has been Ukraine's difficulty in formulating its own defense needs due to secrecy and a lack of internal coordination.

In any case, the military aid from the United States does not reach Ukraine in cash, said Mykhailo Samus, the deputy director of the Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies in Kyiv.

"We never see this money. This is American money getting processed inside the U.S.," he said. "The Americans are buying goods and services in the U.S. and transferring them to Ukraine."

The Javelin antitank missiles, which the Trump administration shipped to Ukraine last year, are a powerful symbol of U.S. support. But they are in storage and far from the front line.

[a fan]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

[old salt]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

[Typical Lax Dad]

OS, didn’t Trump approve aid to Ukraine in the years prior to 2019? I thought it was twice before.

He did. In 2018 and 2017. Just as we have for decades.

Decades ? We did not provide military aid until after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.
Under Obama, it was non-lethal military aid.
I think Trump only twice approved lethal military aid.
The first time, he was still under investigation for collusion with Russia, so he relented to the Russia hawks in the Senate.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/78887484 ... since-2014
While she acknowledges that corruption has been a huge problem in Ukraine's defense sector, Tregub says that Ukraine's new government, led by President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has confronted it head-on.

"Trump can be happy because right now, Ukraine for real is fighting its defense sector corruption, which was an issue under the former president. But it did not concern security assistance. It was about looting money from the Ukrainian defense budget — Ukrainian money," she said.

A defense corruption scandal involving a close associate of former President Petro Poroshenko rocked Ukraine earlier this year and may have contributed to his election loss to Zelenskiy, a former professional comedian who promised to clean up the government.

In the past, 30% of each defense procurement deal was lost to corruption, Tregub says. New legislation, passed under Zelenskiy, requires more transparency, competition and accountability in defense contracts.

Still, corruption hasn't affected foreign military assistance, Tregub says. Instead, the problem with international aid has been Ukraine's difficulty in formulating its own defense needs due to secrecy and a lack of internal coordination.

In any case, the military aid from the United States does not reach Ukraine in cash, said Mykhailo Samus, the deputy director of the Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies in Kyiv.

"We never see this money. This is American money getting processed inside the U.S.," he said. "The Americans are buying goods and services in the U.S. and transferring them to Ukraine."

The Javelin antitank missiles, which the Trump administration shipped to Ukraine last year, are a powerful symbol of U.S. support. But they are in storage and far from the front line.

You sure Rudy, Lev and Igor weren’t busy?

[ToastDunk]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

Right.

Now back to Trump holding up aid (in this most recent instance) in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

Right.

Now back to Trump holding up aid (in this most recent instance) in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens.

An announcement on TV.

[a fan]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

Well I don't know what to tell you. if this is such a big deal.....next time, cut off the aid BEFORE Biden announces he's running for President. Trump had all the way until April 25th to do that. He didn't. And you know full well that he didn't do that because he doesn't care about that money one way or another.

You couldn't find one single American outside of politics who gives two figs about the Ukrainians. No one cares that Trump withheld aid.

The problem, as you know, is WHY Trump withheld the aid. A man of your intelligence knows exactly why Trump withheld that aid. But you are more than welcome to continue to pretend that you don't get it.

[old salt]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

Well I don't know what to tell you. if this is such a big deal.....next time, cut off the aid BEFORE Biden announces he's running for President. Trump had all the way until April 25th to do that. He didn't. And you know full well that he didn't do that because he doesn't care about that money one way or another.

You couldn't find one single American outside of politics who gives two figs about the Ukrainians. No one cares that Trump withheld aid.

The problem, as you know, is WHY Trump withheld the aid. A man of your intelligence knows exactly why Trump withheld that aid. But you are more than welcome to continue to pretend that you don't get it.

The NPR tote bag lady cares deeply.

DoD didn't release the aid until June 18, after the interagency anticorruption certification.
https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releas ... o-ukraine/

I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.
Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.

[ToastDunk]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

Well I don't know what to tell you. if this is such a big deal.....next time, cut off the aid BEFORE Biden announces he's running for President. Trump had all the way until April 25th to do that. He didn't. And you know full well that he didn't do that because he doesn't care about that money one way or another.

You couldn't find one single American outside of politics who gives two figs about the Ukrainians. No one cares that Trump withheld aid.

The problem, as you know, is WHY Trump withheld the aid. A man of your intelligence knows exactly why Trump withheld that aid. But you are more than welcome to continue to pretend that you don't get it.

The NPR tote bag lady cares deeply.

I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.
Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.

Oh boy. I’m out.

I’m thinking Bill Evans, Sunday at the Village Vanguard. That’ll hit the spot.

[tech37]

Ann Coulter, the conservative commentator, wrote on Twitter: “Ken Starr litigation strategy: Torture the senate with such an excruciatingly boring presentation that they cannot take another minute of this trial.”

I hope you listened to Dershowitz tonight. Maybe, just maybe his presentation opened up your restricted mind in some way.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yes. Decades. You clarified the military aid part. I didn't.

Been giving them money since the Soviet collapse.

Offshore bankers around the globe appreciate our generous support of the Ukrainian democracy project.

Well I don't know what to tell you. if this is such a big deal.....next time, cut off the aid BEFORE Biden announces he's running for President. Trump had all the way until April 25th to do that. He didn't. And you know full well that he didn't do that because he doesn't care about that money one way or another.

You couldn't find one single American outside of politics who gives two figs about the Ukrainians. No one cares that Trump withheld aid.

The problem, as you know, is WHY Trump withheld the aid. A man of your intelligence knows exactly why Trump withheld that aid. But you are more than welcome to continue to pretend that you don't get it.

The NPR tote bag lady cares deeply.

I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.
Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.

Oh boy. I’m out.

I’m thinking Bill Evans, Sunday at the Village Vanguard. That’ll hit the spot.

+1....

[a fan]

The NPR tote bag lady cares deeply.

You mean the woman with degrees from Harvard and Cambridge, with 20+ years of journalism experience, having worked all over the world? That's a tote bag lady?

Okay.

I've told you why, before. If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return.
Especially a country which worked against his election in 2016. It was politics as usual. Stupid. Unethical.

You haven't been this explicit before. THIS I can handle, no problem....this is admitting what Trump did, while not agreeing to the consequences of his actions. I have NO PROBLEM with working with the same obvious facts, and disagreeing on what to do.

Tip of the hat here. Whether you know it or not, you haven't been this clear on what you think Trump did until now. So thanks for clarifying.

Not worth the precedent & turmoil of impeachment a few months before an election, if ever.

This is where I STRONGLY, and respectfully, disagree.

This is literally why they put impeachment in the Constitution. They put it in to keep Presidents from using their power to rig elections in their favor....which is exactly and precisely what Trump tried to do. The fact the he got caught before his plan was executed is immaterial.

Happy to change the tone on the forum. Tech, I hope you're reading this and follow suit. There's a question pending for you to clarify your position.

[old salt]

afan -- you have a short, selective memory. Keywords = Trump stupid unethical.

Who needs evidence ? We have the NYT.

Yep. The free press. You think they are the enemy, and Trump is just a doe eyed victim.

I don't get it. Trump is the captain that you want to sink in the ocean with, eh?

What Trump did was stupid & unethical. He's fighting back the only way he knows how. He's under attack, from inside & outside the govt, by people whose profession it is to undermine govts they oppose, to bring about regime change -- ironically, like they've done in Ukraine, ...3 times now.

We're seeing what Schumer meant when he said the IC has 6 ways from Sunday to screw you.

It's up to the (D)'s & their MSM proxies to convince the voters who send 20 (R) Senators to DC that what Trump did warrants ending his Presidency before the next election. Trump's trying to reveal what the IC has been doing to undermine him since he became a candidate.
We're seeing a battle of competing narratives. Trump vs the Deep State, each using their own media allies.

You scoff at the notion of a Deep State, but you're seeing it in action. Trump is a threat to their grip on power & they're trying to take him out, & they may succeed. I warned you that the war within the IC would intensify when Trump began breaking their rice bowls. Dr Farkas is back on MSNBC doing play by play. The Deep State is starting on their entree.

The impeachment inquiry is based on what Trump & Rudy have declassified & released, once the presence & nature of the WB complaint was leaked.

You've already told me, in your own way, that you think what Trump did is wrong. And a few weeks ago, you were asking for impeachment because you're sick of all this nonsense, too. So why are you quibbling about unimportant details?

Yes. I think what Trump did was wrong ( think I said stupid & unethical).

[a fan]

afan -- you have a short, selective memory. Keywords = Trump stupid unethical.

No. My memory is just fine, thank you. I remember this exchange...although not the exact wording, as I'm not that good. But this exchange was about the request to the President of Ukraine to look into the Bidens and that's it.

In this new post you added something else. "If he was going to approve US aid to a corrupt s-hole country, he wanted something in return."

Today you acknowledged and added the quid pro quo----the giving of aid contingent on the announcement of an investigation------ for the first time.

Thank you for that clarification.