Trump's Russian Collusion

[Matnum PI]

"Right matters. The truth matters. Otherwise, we are lost."

In a vacuum, this is a good (and true) statement by Schiff. Something I think about is that Clinton lied under oath and we didn't remove him from office. The US population didn't want them representatives to but... still. Yes, he lied about a private, personal, sexual affair. Something very different than what we're looking at right now. But he lied under oath. I wonder if not impeaching Clinton is at the heart of much of what we're facing.

[old salt]

When it becomes the (R)'s turn, instead of replicating the (D)'s tedious telethon, they should adjourn until 8pm Mon night,
Then present a 1 hr documentary making their case, produced by a the same crew that makes the PBS Frontline documentaries.
That would generate enormous gratitude & good will from the Senators, the media & the viewing public.
Then spend 3 hrs Tues evening, in prime time, refuting the (D)'s lies & out of context hits.

You're on the wrong side of history. There are very few things I am certain of in my life, but this is one of them. Peace be with you.

I'm just grateful (as Schiff reassured me), that the Ukrainians are fighting the Russians over there, so we don't have to fight them over here.
The Russians are coming. The Russians are coming.

The Russians just want general disarray in the short term so their ruling class can keep power and live the good life. The more we squabble amongst ourselves the less attention we pay them. We and the UK are giving them everything they want in global disorder while they spend 10% of what we do on their military.

You have to admit they are getting quite the return on their spending. A unified global presence surrounding our adversaries (Russia, Iran, Korea) with the US leading the way, is much more effective than a hundred countries engaging independently. That's Sun Tzu 101, divide and conquer. They even each that at the two-week Newport cotillion military school I imagine.

Does Sun Tzu say NATO membership for Ukraine is in America's best interest ? What say you ?

[seacoaster]

"Right matters. The truth matters. Otherwise, we are lost."

In a vacuum, this is a good (and true) statement by Schiff. Something I think about is that Clinton lied under oath and we didn't remove him from office. The US population didn't want them representatives to but... still. Yes, he lied about a private, personal, sexual affair. Something very different than what we're looking at right now. But he lied under oath. I wonder if not impeaching Clinton is at the heart of much of what we're facing.

We did impeach Clinton. He just wasn't removed. He will, like Duce, always have that asterisk next to his Presidency, which in many other ways was good for the country. The difference, as you know, is that he went on a personal folly with a young, vulnerable woman and lied about it to people to whom you are not permitted to tell lies. He didn't try to skewer a political opponent; he didn't send private emissaries and thugs to find dirt and favors; he didn't countermand the will of Congress expressed in a (rare'ish) bipartisan assistance bill. He didn't use the levers of government to improperly induce a foreign government to help him gain advantages in an election to his office. The gulf between the two sets of offenses is, frankly, oceanic.

Respectfully, the heart of what we're facing is the elevation of party over the national interest.

[RedFromMI]

Not an every day opinion piece on Fox News, but given that it is Judge Napolitano, not entirely surprising:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps- ... napolitano

I don't blame President Trump for his angst and bitterness over his impeachment by the House of Representatives. In his mind, he has done "nothing wrong" and not acted outside the constitutional powers vested in him and so his impeachment should not have come to pass. He believes that the president can legally extract personal concessions from the recipients of foreign aid, and he also believes that he can legally order his subordinates to ignore congressional subpoenas.

Hence, his public denunciations of his Senate trial as a charade, a joke and a hoax. His trial is not a charade or a joke or a hoax. It is deadly serious business based on well-established constitutional norms.

(much discussion on the evidence and appropriateness of the impeachment)

And the kicker at the end:

Where does all this leave us at the outset of Trump's Senate trial?

It leaves us with valid, lawful, constitutional arguments for Trump's impeachment that he ought to take seriously. That is, unless he knows he will be acquitted because Republican senators have told him so. Whoever may have whispered that into his ear is unworthy of sitting as a juror and has violated the oath of "impartial justice" and fidelity to the Constitution and the law.

What is required for removal of the president? A demonstration of presidential commission of high crimes and misdemeanors, of which in Trump's case the evidence is ample and uncontradicted.

[Kismet]

Will be very interesting to see what happens to Judge Nap going forward and will his head appear on a pike with all the other traitors who turn on Orange Duce.

[MDlaxfan76]

When it becomes the (R)'s turn, instead of replicating the (D)'s tedious telethon, they should adjourn until 8pm Mon night,
Then present a 1 hr documentary making their case, produced by a the same crew that makes the PBS Frontline documentaries.
That would generate enormous gratitude & good will from the Senators, the media & the viewing public.
Then spend 3 hrs Tues evening, in prime time, refuting the (D)'s lies & out of context hits.

You're on the wrong side of history. There are very few things I am certain of in my life, but this is one of them. Peace be with you.

+1

[Matnum PI]

We did impeach Clinton. He just wasn't removed... Respectfully, the heart of what we're facing is the elevation of party over the national interest.

I agree. the party over country is a major problem. i'm just speaking to a second issue which is... It's hard to tell your kids not to lie, that the ends don't justify the means, when just yesterday, you lied under oath. You can say 100 "Yeah, but Trump..."s but the people can't help but nod their heads and say, Right... I think that moment when we said, "He lied under oath but..." may be coming to haunt us. not the only issue. but an issue.

[Peter Brown]

When it becomes the (R)'s turn, instead of replicating the (D)'s tedious telethon, they should adjourn until 8pm Mon night,
Then present a 1 hr documentary making their case, produced by a the same crew that makes the PBS Frontline documentaries.
That would generate enormous gratitude & good will from the Senators, the media & the viewing public.
Then spend 3 hrs Tues evening, in prime time, refuting the (D)'s lies & out of context hits.

You're on the wrong side of history. There are very few things I am certain of in my life, but this is one of them. Peace be with you.

I'm just grateful (as Schiff reassured me), that the Ukrainians are fighting the Russians over there, so we don't have to fight them over here.
The Russians are coming. The Russians are coming.

Your favorable, almost flippant attitude towards a corrupt, malignant, and murderous adversary like Russia (and its corrupt and dangerous dictator, Vladimir Putin) is really disturbing.

What is the matter with you?

DocBarrister

The MSNBC Kool-Aid is strong with this one...

[jhu72]

"Right matters. The truth matters. Otherwise, we are lost."

In a vacuum, this is a good (and true) statement by Schiff. Something I think about is that Clinton lied under oath and we didn't remove him from office. The US population didn't want them representatives to but... still. Yes, he lied about a private, personal, sexual affair. Something very different than what we're looking at right now. But he lied under oath. I wonder if not impeaching Clinton is at the heart of much of what we're facing.

Doubt it. History doesn't count for politicians. It is all about the next election (or the politician's perspective of that election). Separate events. Every one of the republicans know what Trump did was wrong, anti-American, unconstitutional. Now what will concern them is their potential legacies. But that is still held in balance with the next election. Their votes will be conditioned by only these factors.

[seacoaster]

Not an every day opinion piece on Fox News, but given that it is Judge Napolitano, not entirely surprising:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps- ... napolitano

I don't blame President Trump for his angst and bitterness over his impeachment by the House of Representatives. In his mind, he has done "nothing wrong" and not acted outside the constitutional powers vested in him and so his impeachment should not have come to pass. He believes that the president can legally extract personal concessions from the recipients of foreign aid, and he also believes that he can legally order his subordinates to ignore congressional subpoenas.

Hence, his public denunciations of his Senate trial as a charade, a joke and a hoax. His trial is not a charade or a joke or a hoax. It is deadly serious business based on well-established constitutional norms.

(much discussion on the evidence and appropriateness of the impeachment)

And the kicker at the end:

Where does all this leave us at the outset of Trump's Senate trial?

It leaves us with valid, lawful, constitutional arguments for Trump's impeachment that he ought to take seriously. That is, unless he knows he will be acquitted because Republican senators have told him so. Whoever may have whispered that into his ear is unworthy of sitting as a juror and has violated the oath of "impartial justice" and fidelity to the Constitution and the law.

What is required for removal of the president? A demonstration of presidential commission of high crimes and misdemeanors, of which in Trump's case the evidence is ample and uncontradicted.

"Ample and uncontradicted," indeed. Interesting that Judge Nap is such a hero or such an enemy. When everyone with a working brain understands what he is saying is clear and right about Trump's conduct.

[RedFromMI]

Not an every day opinion piece on Fox News, but given that it is Judge Napolitano, not entirely surprising:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps- ... napolitano

I don't blame President Trump for his angst and bitterness over his impeachment by the House of Representatives. In his mind, he has done "nothing wrong" and not acted outside the constitutional powers vested in him and so his impeachment should not have come to pass. He believes that the president can legally extract personal concessions from the recipients of foreign aid, and he also believes that he can legally order his subordinates to ignore congressional subpoenas.

Hence, his public denunciations of his Senate trial as a charade, a joke and a hoax. His trial is not a charade or a joke or a hoax. It is deadly serious business based on well-established constitutional norms.

(much discussion on the evidence and appropriateness of the impeachment)

And the kicker at the end:

Where does all this leave us at the outset of Trump's Senate trial?

It leaves us with valid, lawful, constitutional arguments for Trump's impeachment that he ought to take seriously. That is, unless he knows he will be acquitted because Republican senators have told him so. Whoever may have whispered that into his ear is unworthy of sitting as a juror and has violated the oath of "impartial justice" and fidelity to the Constitution and the law.

What is required for removal of the president? A demonstration of presidential commission of high crimes and misdemeanors, of which in Trump's case the evidence is ample and uncontradicted.

"Ample and uncontradicted," indeed. Interesting that Judge Nap is such a hero or such an enemy. When everyone with a working brain understands what he is saying is clear and right about Trump's conduct.

And the Rs in the Senate are so cowed by Trump/supporters (being warned that opposing Trump will lead to their "heads on a pike") that they have turned their own brains off.

[jhu72]

When it becomes the (R)'s turn, instead of replicating the (D)'s tedious telethon, they should adjourn until 8pm Mon night,
Then present a 1 hr documentary making their case, produced by a the same crew that makes the PBS Frontline documentaries.
That would generate enormous gratitude & good will from the Senators, the media & the viewing public.
Then spend 3 hrs Tues evening, in prime time, refuting the (D)'s lies & out of context hits.

You're on the wrong side of history. There are very few things I am certain of in my life, but this is one of them. Peace be with you.

+1

Speaking of history, Adam Schiff has guaranteed himself a place of honor in the history books. In every American crises there are a few people who find their way in to the history books, on the right side of history. His words will be recorded in the history books. His stock has really risen.

[seacoaster]

When it becomes the (R)'s turn, instead of replicating the (D)'s tedious telethon, they should adjourn until 8pm Mon night,
Then present a 1 hr documentary making their case, produced by a the same crew that makes the PBS Frontline documentaries.
That would generate enormous gratitude & good will from the Senators, the media & the viewing public.
Then spend 3 hrs Tues evening, in prime time, refuting the (D)'s lies & out of context hits.

You're on the wrong side of history. There are very few things I am certain of in my life, but this is one of them. Peace be with you.

+1

Speaking of history, Adam Schiff has guaranteed himself a place of honor in the history books. In every American crises there are a few people who find there way in to the history books, on the right side of history. His words will be recorded in the history books. His stock has really risen.

Jennifer Rubin's summary of Schiff's job and the case against the President:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... publicans/

"House impeachment manager and Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.) on Thursday night stirred the hearts and lifted the spirits of patriots who have watched with amazement as the House laid out an airtight case for President Trump’s removal. After another long day and evening of argument, Schiff explained that it was essential not simply to conclude that Trump did what he is accused of. (“You know he did,” Schiff told the silent Senate chamber.) Why do we need to get rid of Trump with only months to go? Can’t we just wait for the election?

Schiff explained that because we know we cannot trust Trump to put the national interest over his own interest, he poses a threat to the nation. He won’t stop China or Russia from interfering in the election. He’ll give up the national interest (e.g., a better trade deal) to advance his own interests. Schiff then delivered an impassioned plea: “Here right matters. ... If right doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter how good the Constitution is," Schiff declared. "It doesn’t matter how brilliant the Framers were. It doesn’t matter how good or bad our advocacy in this trial is. It doesn’t matter how well-written the oath of impartiality is. If right doesn’t matter, we’re lost. If the truth doesn’t matter, we’re lost. The Framers couldn’t protect us from ourselves if right and truth don’t matter. And you know that what he did was not right.”

His remarks will no doubt be essential reading and viewing for years to come long after the horror of Trump has evaporated.

If you are as cynical and consumed with ambition as are the Republican senators, the words will bounce off you like water off a duck. But for those of us who have watched with a mixture of awe and amazement, with incredulity that anyone could argue against the merits of the House’s case, it was gut-wrenching because we know what he says is true, and we know that to the Trump cult and timorous Republicans, right and truth do not matter.

We can hold out hope that Schiff’s magnificent words will resonate with Americans, if not with a majority of the Senate. Perhaps Schiff’s call to our better angels will provide the emotional lift and inspiration to banish Trump from the Oval Office in the November election. Whether they do or not, Schiff’s words will serve as a message in the bottle — a love letter to democracy and truth for future generations. When historians look back on this dreadful time, at a president devoid of humanity an decency and a party overtaken with cultish reverence for evil, they might ask: “Didn’t they know better? Couldn’t they see right through him?”

The answer will be that most everyone saw Trump for what he was — a danger, a pathological liar, a self-serving demagogue with authoritarian aspirations. However, too few were willing to say it, and more important, to do something about it.

Scripps College philosophy professor Rivka Weinberg recently wrote in the New York Times on the nature of evil and collaboration with evil. “The truth about how massive moral crimes occur is both unsettling and comforting. It’s unsettling to accept how many people participated in appalling moral crimes but comforting to realize that we don’t have to be heroes to avoid genocides,” she wrote. “We just have to make sure not to help them along.” She argued: “Heroism is not morally obligatory, not teachable and not what we must demand of citizens in order to avoid catastrophic crimes against humanity. What we must emphasize is the cruelty and destructiveness of hate and the perils of collaborating with it.”

Republicans cannot bring themselves to do even that. But the rest of us surely can. The rest of us can say, “Enough.” We can say in November, “Trump is not who we are. We are a free people. He must go. We will not indulge this any longer.” The danger, Schiff reminds us, lies in what happens in the meantime."

Right, and the right side of history.

[jhu72]

When it becomes the (R)'s turn, instead of replicating the (D)'s tedious telethon, they should adjourn until 8pm Mon night,
Then present a 1 hr documentary making their case, produced by a the same crew that makes the PBS Frontline documentaries.
That would generate enormous gratitude & good will from the Senators, the media & the viewing public.
Then spend 3 hrs Tues evening, in prime time, refuting the (D)'s lies & out of context hits.

You're on the wrong side of history. There are very few things I am certain of in my life, but this is one of them. Peace be with you.

+1

Speaking of history, Adam Schiff has guaranteed himself a place of honor in the history books. In every American crises there are a few people who find there way in to the history books, on the right side of history. His words will be recorded in the history books. His stock has really risen.

Jennifer Rubin's summary of Schiff's job and the case against the President:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... publicans/

"House impeachment manager and Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.) on Thursday night stirred the hearts and lifted the spirits of patriots who have watched with amazement as the House laid out an airtight case for President Trump’s removal. After another long day and evening of argument, Schiff explained that it was essential not simply to conclude that Trump did what he is accused of. (“You know he did,” Schiff told the silent Senate chamber.) Why do we need to get rid of Trump with only months to go? Can’t we just wait for the election?

Schiff explained that because we know we cannot trust Trump to put the national interest over his own interest, he poses a threat to the nation. He won’t stop China or Russia from interfering in the election. He’ll give up the national interest (e.g., a better trade deal) to advance his own interests. Schiff then delivered an impassioned plea: “Here right matters. ... If right doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter how good the Constitution is," Schiff declared. "It doesn’t matter how brilliant the Framers were. It doesn’t matter how good or bad our advocacy in this trial is. It doesn’t matter how well-written the oath of impartiality is. If right doesn’t matter, we’re lost. If the truth doesn’t matter, we’re lost. The Framers couldn’t protect us from ourselves if right and truth don’t matter. And you know that what he did was not right.”

His remarks will no doubt be essential reading and viewing for years to come long after the horror of Trump has evaporated. -- Yup. Goes down in history.

If you are as cynical and consumed with ambition as are the Republican senators, the words will bounce off you like water off a duck. But for those of us who have watched with a mixture of awe and amazement, with incredulity that anyone could argue against the merits of the House’s case, it was gut-wrenching because we know what he says is true, and we know that to the Trump cult and timorous Republicans, right and truth do not matter.

We can hold out hope that Schiff’s magnificent words will resonate with Americans, if not with a majority of the Senate. Perhaps Schiff’s call to our better angels will provide the emotional lift and inspiration to banish Trump from the Oval Office in the November election. Whether they do or not, Schiff’s words will serve as a message in the bottle — a love letter to democracy and truth for future generations. When historians look back on this dreadful time, at a president devoid of humanity an decency and a party overtaken with cultish reverence for evil, they might ask: “Didn’t they know better? Couldn’t they see right through him?”

The answer will be that most everyone saw Trump for what he was — a danger, a pathological liar, a self-serving demagogue with authoritarian aspirations. However, too few were willing to say it, and more important, to do something about it.

Scripps College philosophy professor Rivka Weinberg recently wrote in the New York Times on the nature of evil and collaboration with evil. “The truth about how massive moral crimes occur is both unsettling and comforting. It’s unsettling to accept how many people participated in appalling moral crimes but comforting to realize that we don’t have to be heroes to avoid genocides,” she wrote. “We just have to make sure not to help them along.” She argued: “Heroism is not morally obligatory, not teachable and not what we must demand of citizens in order to avoid catastrophic crimes against humanity. What we must emphasize is the cruelty and destructiveness of hate and the perils of collaborating with it.”

Republicans cannot bring themselves to do even that. But the rest of us surely can. The rest of us can say, “Enough.” We can say in November, “Trump is not who we are. We are a free people. He must go. We will not indulge this any longer.” The danger, Schiff reminds us, lies in what happens in the meantime."

Right, and the right side of history.

[dislaxxic]

Had a thought last night as Schiff was describing the call summary the WH released BEFORE putting out the more lengthy (non-)"transcript"...i think that when he says "it was a perfect call"...that in his mind, THAT's the call he imagines when he says that.

So much bubble-think in his daily lies and the reality he attempts to create by the near-constant obfuscation and mis-direction he practices every day of his life...

The call summarized in that initial WH release...the one that contained virtually NONE of the clear quid-pro-quos and bribery...that first call summary is what is in the front of that pea-brain of his every time it voices "it was a PERFECT call!"

..

[Trinity]

The Dems 47 votes representing 15 million more Americans than the 53 Rs to hear witnesses and see the documents created by our public employees while we paid them. I’ll bet their testimony won’t be boring.

80% of Americans want witnesses and documents. Monmouth poll.

Republicans aren’t really going to argue, that even if he did it, and he did, that it’s okay to push Putin’s propaganda, to serve Putin’s needs, are they? If they factually contest this charge, we’re gonna need documents and witnesses.

[Matnum PI]

Doubt it. History doesn't count for politicians. It is all about the next election (or the politician's perspective of that election). Separate events. Every one of the republicans know what Trump did was wrong, anti-American, unconstitutional. Now what will concern them is their potential legacies. But that is still held in balance with the next election. Their votes will be conditioned by only these factors.

I'm less interested in what are they going to do and who is going to win. I'm more interested in why is this (awfulness) happening?

[RedFromMI]

More bad news for Trump - ABC News has found a recording from 2018 with Lev Parnas at a dinner including the President...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/recordi ... d=68506437

A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman -- two former business associates of Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani who have since been indicted in New York.

The recording appears to contradict statements by President Trump and support the narrative that has been offered by Parnas during broadcast interviews in recent days. Sources familiar with the recording said the recording was made during an intimate April 30, 2018, dinner at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C.

Trump has said repeatedly he does not know Parnas, a Soviet-born American who has emerged as a wild card in Trump’s impeachment trial, especially in the days since Trump was impeached.

"Get rid of her!" is what the voice that appears to be President Trump’s is heard saying. "Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. Okay? Do it."

On the recording, it appears the two Giuliani associates are telling President Trump that the U.S. ambassador has been bad-mouthing him, which leads directly to the apparent remarks by the President. The recording was made by Fruman, according to sources familiar with the tape. The White House did not respond to an ABC News request for comment.

[Trinity]

Clean up on aisle 5, Mitt.

Fruman taped this.

[jhu72]

Doubt it. History doesn't count for politicians. It is all about the next election (or the politician's perspective of that election). Separate events. Every one of the republicans know what Trump did was wrong, anti-American, unconstitutional. Now what will concern them is their potential legacies. But that is still held in balance with the next election. Their votes will be conditioned by only these factors.

I'm less interested in what are they going to do and who is going to win. I'm more interested in why is this (awfulness) happening?

I thought I addressed that but can certainly expand on it. These politicians aren't thinking about Clinton even a little. It is not some get even in their minds. I don't think the people who elected them are making their minds up based on a Clinton get even. Perhaps the Clinton result, the majority of the country not thinking he should be impeached because of something flowing out of a personal relationship convinced some republicans that they would not worry about Trump's peccadillo's, but this is not a Trump peccadillo. So basically I don't see any relationship between Clinton results and the current impeachment situation.