Trump's Russian Collusion

[LandM]

TLD,
You and many others have come out and stated what a great job Schiff has done presenting the impeachment case. When it comes time for the Republicans to state their case between he and Nadler my guess is they will be pinata dolls, just a guess. The last few months I was wondering who was lying more those two or Trump. Many of you bust on Trump for his lying and rightly so but you all are giving a hall pass to Schiff. He got a bit of taste in his mouth yesterday, my guess is they go full throttle tomorrow or Monday. Then what are you going to think about the man? I also question, since his district has a HUGE homeless population what his constituents think about his TV appearances and his, "I am here to save the Republic". He might want to focus a little on his own backyard. Finally, many are cheering this on - just remember what McConnell did when Reid did the nuclear option. Eventually the tables will be turned - I hope no one cries home to mommy when they are.

As to Ukraine why we are even in the country baffles me. To stop the Russians, no matter what aid we give them, Russia could roll over them if they wanted. So please stop with the aid would have saved the day and all these poor Ukrainians died because it was delayed, that is hogwash and a brush up on history would be helpful for many.

As to Biden, started and sold 3 companies. Everyone on my BOD's knew the industries and could be helpful with contacts, capital, or other strategic avenues in the businesses we were in. On the surface, Biden's kid got a sweetheart deal and anyone who has been in business knows that. Him testifying is not gonna change mine or 99.9% of my associates opinion. I just hope in the future that someone steps in the next time it happens.

[old salt]

Watching Schiff. He strings together his arguments with facts and logic. He does not leave a lot of room for any other conclusion other than what he drives at. I can't imagine what this would look like with the documentary evidence that won't be released and with witness testimony. My guess is that the Republicans will be all about Hunter Biden. It's a sad state of affairs. Why any country, going forward, would give up or not pursue nuclear weapons because we offer to provide military assistance is beyond me. The world won't be safer.

Perverted history. You grossly overstate the assurances the US made 25 years ago, along with the UK, Russia, France & China.
Kuchma's decision to choose Ukrainian independence destroyed the hope of a united, stable post-Soviet, Russian Federation, within it's historic borders & assured the divisions & unrest which persist to this day within the former USSR & Imperial Russia.

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.
Like their Russian neighbors & Slavic cousins, they are the victim of their own pervasive corruption, not any failure of the US to protect them.

So having Ukraine investigate the Bidens changes all that dump you just wrote and makes it ok to give them the financial assistance?

Come on TLD, Salty simply wants to do whatever is good for Vlad and ethnonationalist authoritarianism..
Beyond that, it's just what you can extract, what you can squeeze.

Mexico wants its historic borders back......more drivel....

They're Mexico's for the taking, if they want them.
They'd prefer to send their poor N to suck our on our social safety teats, while sending billions in remittances home.

We have no strategic imperative to protect Ukraine. Certainly no more than our NATO allies who want them as an EU trading partner.
None of you gave a fig about Ukraine before the 2016 election.

Why didn't we formally withdraw our support, comrade? It is not illegal. Have congress write some legislation. That's the lawful way.

Because, at this point, that would be politically & morally unsustainable.
We've been suckered in & we can't abruptly pull out.
I'm not buying your politically opportunistic, Hate America First Rap, that Ukraine's plight (or Mexico's poverty & corruption) are our fault & our responsibility to correct for them.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Watching Schiff. He strings together his arguments with facts and logic. He does not leave a lot of room for any other conclusion other than what he drives at. I can't imagine what this would look like with the documentary evidence that won't be released and with witness testimony. My guess is that the Republicans will be all about Hunter Biden. It's a sad state of affairs. Why any country, going forward, would give up or not pursue nuclear weapons because we offer to provide military assistance is beyond me. The world won't be safer.

Perverted history. You grossly overstate the assurances the US made 25 years ago, along with the UK, Russia, France & China.
Kuchma's decision to choose Ukrainian independence destroyed the hope of a united, stable post-Soviet, Russian Federation, within it's historic borders & assured the divisions & unrest which persist to this day within the former USSR & Imperial Russia.

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.
Like their Russian neighbors & Slavic cousins, they are the victim of their own pervasive corruption, not any failure of the US to protect them.

So having Ukraine investigate the Bidens changes all that dump you just wrote and makes it ok to give them the financial assistance?

Come on TLD, Salty simply wants to do whatever is good for Vlad and ethnonationalist authoritarianism..
Beyond that, it's just what you can extract, what you can squeeze.

Mexico wants its historic borders back......more drivel....

They're Mexico's for the taking, if they want them.
They'd prefer to send their poor N to suck our on our social safety teats, while sending billions in remittances home.

We have no strategic imperative to protect Ukraine. Certainly no more than our NATO allies who want them as an EU trading partner.
None of you gave a fig about Ukraine before the 2016 election.

Why didn't we formally withdraw our support, comrade? It is not illegal. Have congress write some legislation. That's the lawful way.

Because, at this point, that would be politically & morally unsustainable.
We've been suckered in & we can't abruptly pull out.
I'm not buying your politically opportunistic, Hate America First Rap, that Ukraine's plight (or Mexico's poverty & corruption) are our fault & our responsibility to correct for them.

Done with you for the night. You are relieved.

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD,
You and many others have come out and stated what a great job Schiff has done presenting the impeachment case. When it comes time for the Republicans to state their case between he and Nadler my guess is they will be pinata dolls, just a guess. The last few months I was wondering who was lying more those two or Trump. Many of you bust on Trump for his lying and rightly so but you all are giving a hall pass to Schiff. He got a bit of taste in his mouth yesterday, my guess is they go full throttle tomorrow or Monday. Then what are you going to think about the man? I also question, since his district has a HUGE homeless population what his constituents think about his TV appearances and his, "I am here to save the Republic". He might want to focus a little on his own backyard. Finally, many are cheering this on - just remember what McConnell did when Reid did the nuclear option. Eventually the tables will be turned - I hope no one cries home to mommy when they are.

As to Ukraine why we are even in the country baffles me. To stop the Russians, no matter what aid we give them, Russia could roll over them if they wanted. So please stop with the aid would have saved the day and all these poor Ukrainians died because it was delayed, that is hogwash and a brush up on history would be helpful for many.

As to Biden, started and sold 3 companies. Everyone on my BOD's knew the industries and could be helpful with contacts, capital, or other strategic avenues in the businesses we were in. On the surface, Biden's kid got a sweetheart deal and anyone who has been in business knows that. Him testifying is not gonna change mine or 99.9% of my associates opinion. I just hope in the future that someone steps in the next time it happens.

I didn't say Schiff did a great job. I pointed out the structure of his arguments. This is what deplorables are looking toward to from Republicans....to bad Gym Jordan could not go on a rant.....hire this animal...will draw the same response from the supporters.

[old salt]

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.

Ukraine's GDP is #57 in the world.

Why the F did Trump reinforce Poland if the Polish can defend themselves from Russia so easily?

Poland's GDP is three times larger than Ukraine's, for heaven's sake.

And now you're telling us that Ukraine can handle Putin no problem, while the Polish need our help? You sure about this?

more VDH drivel.....

Poland's a NATO ally -- Article 4.
Ukraine's a NATO wannabe.

Poland & Ukraine were in roughly the same situation 25 years ago.
Ukraine could & should be Poland, if they we're not so endemically corrupt & socially Russian (which is who they really are).

[a fan]

We have no strategic imperative to protect Ukraine. Certainly no more than our NATO allies who want them as an EU trading partner.
None of you gave a fig about Ukraine before the 2016 election.

Of course we didn't give a fig. We still don't. That doesn't mean that Trump gets to use them as a toy....which is what you're trying to say here.

[DocBarrister]

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.

Ukraine's GDP is #57 in the world.

Why the F did Trump reinforce Poland if the Polish can defend themselves from Russia so easily?

Poland's GDP is three times larger than Ukraine's, for heaven's sake.

And now you're telling us that Ukraine can handle Putin no problem, while the Polish need our help? You sure about this?

more VDH drivel.....

Poland's a NATO ally -- Article 4.
Ukraine's a NATO wannabe.

Poland & Ukraine were in roughly the same situation 25 years ago.
Ukraine could & should be Poland, if they we're not so endemically corrupt & socially Russian (which is who they really are).

If you’re suggesting that Ukrainians are essentially Russians, then you should really stop participating in these discussions.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.

Ukraine's GDP is #57 in the world.

Why the F did Trump reinforce Poland if the Polish can defend themselves from Russia so easily?

Poland's GDP is three times larger than Ukraine's, for heaven's sake.

And now you're telling us that Ukraine can handle Putin no problem, while the Polish need our help? You sure about this?

more VDH drivel.....

Poland's a NATO ally -- Article 4.
Ukraine's a NATO wannabe.

Poland & Ukraine were in roughly the same situation 25 years ago.
Ukraine could & should be Poland, if they we're not so endemically corrupt & socially Russian (which is who they really are).

If you’re suggesting that Ukrainians are essentially Russians, then you should really stop participating in these discussions.

DocBarrister

Where do you think modern Russia started ? Kievan Rus. then Imperial Russia, then the USSR.

[old salt]

Bingo. Coming attractions. Stay tuned. Some names for the witness list.
Let's slice open the fetid Ukrainian carcass & examine ALL the entrails. :

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... stleblower

...Ms. Jaresko, are you aware of Ukrainian parliamentarian Bielkova April 12, meetings with Liz Zentos and Eric Ciaramella of the Obama and National Security Council?”

Jaresko said she was not aware of any meetings between them. According to Jaresko, she became the executive director of the Financial Oversight and Management Board of Puerto Rico by being recruited by the members of the board “based on her experience as minister of finance in both the fiscal area and the debt restructuring that I did in Ukraine.”

The day she became finance minister, she was granted Ukrainian citizenship and lived in Ukraine from her initial posting in the U.S. State Department as the economics officer in 1992 until she left and took her current post in 2017.

Gohmert told the Washington Examiner, “Specifically, I asked about an April 12, 2016, meeting between Ukrainian parliamentarian Olga Bielkova and Liz Zentos and Eric Ciaramella of the National Security Council, in which energy issues were discussed. I thought it was prudent to ask Ms. Jaresko on the record and under oath about this meeting, since the time frame and subject align with the concerning reports of Joe Biden and Hunter Biden’s dealings in Ukraine.”

The congressman added: “She said she had no knowledge of this meeting. Ms. Jaresko has previously said of Joe Biden’s relationship with Ukraine: ‘Joe’s role was unique and valuable and will be very hard to duplicate.’ If that is true, then the significance of a meeting like this one cannot be understated.”

Schoen arranged Washington meetings for Bielkova on behalf of Pinchuk. These included the one with Ciaramella and his then-boss Zentos, now political and economic chief at the U.S. Embassy in Tblisi.

Schoen, a Democratic operative who began foreign lobbying work for Pinchuk for $40,000 per month beginning in 2000, arranged April 2016 meetings for Bielkova with national security professionals, including Ciaramella, at the behest of Pinchuk. Schoen’s filing under the Foreign Agents Registration Act stated he didn’t attend these meetings personally and that the topic of the meetings was “the Ukrainian progress in energy reform during the past year and what steps must be done in the future to increase energy independence.”

In 2004, Schoen introduced Pinchuk to Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Bielkova met with Ciaramella and his colleague, Liz Zentos, then the director for Eastern Europe on the National Security Council, on April 12, 2016, at Le Pain Quotidien, on 17th Street N.W., a block from the White House. The same day, Bielkova also met with State Department official Michael Kimmage and, separately, with Kramer of the McCain Institute. Kramer figures prominently in the Trump-Russia saga — he met with Steele in December 2016 at Heathrow Airport to obtain a copy of the British ex-spy’s unverified dossier and provided information from it to over a dozen journalists after the presidential election.

Pinchuk, the powerful Ukrainian oligarch and billionaire whom Schoen works for, is the founder of Interpipe Group, one of Ukraine’s largest steel producers, EastOne Group, a large London-based international investment firm, and StarLightMedia, Ukraine’s largest broadcasting conglomerate. Pinchuk’s father-in-law is Leonid Kuchma, the Ukrainian president from the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s. Kuchma was widely seen as corrupt, and he controversially privatized and sold a state-run steel factory to Pinchuk in what was considered by some as a sweetheart deal. Pinchuk was a member of Ukraine’s parliament at about the same time and has continued to use his money and connections to remain active in politics in Ukraine and abroad.

He secretly provided $4 million for a 2012 report carried out by former Obama White House counsel Greg Craig and his law firm, written at the behest of the Kremlin-linked government in Ukraine about the country’s controversial prosecution of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who was tried under President Viktor Yanukovych, a close ally of Paul Manafort. Schoen testified in the trial this summer, and Craig was found not guilty of misleading investigators about his actions in Ukraine this September.

Pinchuk was the founder of the Victor Pinchuk Foundation, Ukraine’s largest philanthropic group, which, among other donations, gave an estimated $10 million to $25 million to the Clinton Foundation. The Clintons have traveled on Pinchuk’s private plane, and Pinchuk attended former President Bill Clinton’s 65th birthday party in Los Angeles in 2011. Pinchuk’s foundation also donated $150,000 to the Donald J. Trump Foundation in 2015 for Trump to appear by video at a Kyiv conference.

[old salt]

We have no strategic imperative to protect Ukraine. Certainly no more than our NATO allies who want them as an EU trading partner.
None of you gave a fig about Ukraine before the 2016 election.

Of course we didn't give a fig. We still don't. That doesn't mean that Trump gets to use them as a toy....which is what you're trying to say here.

Stop telling me what I'm trying to say. You're not qualified.
I'm saying it's BS that we're responsible for their security.
...contrived since 2017 for domestic political expediency.
Recall when the RNC platform plank was proof of collusion with Russia,
before Trump took office & sent the Javelins.

[Trinity]

20 goal lead, playing at home, your mom is the ref, but you’re still afraid to play. Americans recognize what’s going on. Trump blusters he wants to testify, wants Bolton to talk. Except he doesn’t. He couldn’t face Mueller and he can’t face Schiff. 142 tweets and retweets from Trump yesterday as he panics.

[jhu72]

Rumor that the republican defense will not be presented until Monday in daylight hours.

[Trinity]

“We have all the materials, the Democrats don’t,” says Trump in Davos, copping to the second Article of Obstruction. Imagine you’re this idiot’s lawyer....

There’s a new ad running for President Pence that won’t please Impotus.

PresidentPence.com

[jhu72]

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.

Ukraine's GDP is #57 in the world.

Why the F did Trump reinforce Poland if the Polish can defend themselves from Russia so easily?

Poland's GDP is three times larger than Ukraine's, for heaven's sake.

And now you're telling us that Ukraine can handle Putin no problem, while the Polish need our help? You sure about this?

more VDH drivel.....

Poland's a NATO ally -- Article 4.
Ukraine's a NATO wannabe.

Poland & Ukraine were in roughly the same situation 25 years ago.
Ukraine could & should be Poland, if they we're not so endemically corrupt & socially Russian (which is who they really are).

If you’re suggesting that Ukrainians are essentially Russians, then you should really stop participating in these discussions.

DocBarrister

Where do you think modern Russia started ? Kievan Rus. then Imperial Russia, then the USSR.

Except most Ukrainians don't consider themselves Russians and there is a long history of emnity.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Ukraine was the wealthiest, most prosperous (per capita) republic of the USSR, with disproportionate wealth, industrial & ag capacity.
They were prominent in the Soviet military & leaders in the USSR's arms industry.
In the ensuing 25 years, they had the capacity to outstrip Russia militarily.
They certainly should be able to defend themselves.

Ukraine's GDP is #57 in the world.

Why the F did Trump reinforce Poland if the Polish can defend themselves from Russia so easily?

Poland's GDP is three times larger than Ukraine's, for heaven's sake.

And now you're telling us that Ukraine can handle Putin no problem, while the Polish need our help? You sure about this?

more VDH drivel.....

Poland's a NATO ally -- Article 4.
Ukraine's a NATO wannabe.

Poland & Ukraine were in roughly the same situation 25 years ago.
Ukraine could & should be Poland, if they we're not so endemically corrupt & socially Russian (which is who they really are).

If you’re suggesting that Ukrainians are essentially Russians, then you should really stop participating in these discussions.

DocBarrister

Where do you think modern Russia started ? Kievan Rus. then Imperial Russia, then the USSR.

Except most Ukrainians don't consider themselves Russians and there is a long history of emnity.

All those folks in Texas & California are Mexicans by his logic..... don't ask about the Israeli people that are not really Israeli.

[Trinity]

https://www.presidentpence.com/

Posted as a public service. His slogan is: It Could Be Worse

[jhu72]

https://www.presidentpence.com/

Posted as a public service. His slogan is: It Could Be Worse

Bill Kristol is just a trouble maker.

[RedFromMI]

From David Corn of Mother Jones about the Giuliani letter to Ukrainian president Zelensky in early May 2019:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... -cover-up/

The letter demonstrates two things: Giuliani is a liar, and the pressure campaign on Kyiv, from the start, was mounted to serve Trump’s personal gains, not the foreign policy interests of the United States.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I want all of the information to be made public and then let the Senate acquit Trump. There is nothing to stop the Senate majority from acquitting Trump. It’s within their power and their right. What I don’t want to see is the suppression of evidence and witnesses. The witnesses and evidence may actually clear Trump and make it even easier to acquit him. Why not have documentary evidence and witnesses participate? Do we live in Haiti now?

[dislaxxic]

This writer finds plausible evidence that An Impeachment Trial Without Witnesses Would Be Unconstitutional

"Even if McConnell, in the face of this new evidence, can prevent the defection of more than three Republican senators, a majority vote of the Senate cannot validate the unconstitutional exclusion of witnesses from an impeachment trial. If Republicans succeed in preventing House managers from calling witnesses with firsthand knowledge of relevant facts, an acquittal of the president will be unconstitutional. Given that a majority of the Supreme Court in Nixon ruled that a Senate impeachment trial is not subject to judicial review, the question remains, if the courts cannot overturn a Senate verdict, what are the legal consequences of an unconstitutional acquittal?

An answer is provided by a momentous opinion of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which is responsible for providing the president with “controlling advice” on questions of law. The relevant OLC opinion is the same one that furnished the basis for Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s conclusion that he was prohibited from prosecuting Trump before he left office, even if there was overwhelming evidence that the president had committed serious crimes.

The OLC opinion, written in 2000 by then–Assistant Attorney General Randolph Moss, explains that the reason prohibiting the prosecution of a criminally culpable president does not violate the “important national interest in ensuring that no person—including the President—is above the law” is because “the constitutionally specified impeachment process ensures that the immunity would not place the president ‘above the law.’”

If the impeachment process conducted by the Senate is unconstitutional, the unavailability of either criminal prosecution or a legitimate impeachment trial as a means of presidential accountability, according to the OLC opinion’s own reasoning, would “subvert the important interest in maintaining ‘the rule of law.’”

An unconstitutional verdict of acquittal would present Americans with something far worse than a constitutional crisis. The nation will have blundered its way into creating an accidental autocracy governed by a president who, even if not reelected, would remain in office until January 20, 2021, beyond the reach of the rule of law."

[snip]

In sum:

"If on the day the Senate returns its verdict, history records the failure to convict the president following a trial without witnesses, that will be the day the rule of law dies in America. The courts will remain open for business. Congress will be in session. Citizens will still be able to vote. And a free press will continue to launch withering attacks on President Trump. But the American people will no longer be living in a constitutional democracy."

..