Progressive Ideology

[Typical Lax Dad]

Minnesota leading the nation in foolishness. The left is allowed to ignore "the science" to the point where lives are at risk.

https://alphanews.org/minnesota-house-p ... ergy-bill/

The last person leaving Minnesota won't have to turn out the lights.

As they get closer, the date will be extended if the state is too far off. It’s like a term loan with a balloon maturity. Nobody expects it to be paid out of cash flow at maturity.

Watch out for CRE…. 4-6% cap rates going to 6.5-10% will be hell on LTVs.

To your point though in the Lev Loan market you get 1% annualized amortization of principal paid quarterly or similar typically. At year 7, if it gets there and when it does there’s a problem, you’ve still got 93% of the original principal outstanding.

Refinancing risk

[Farfromgeneva]

Minnesota leading the nation in foolishness. The left is allowed to ignore "the science" to the point where lives are at risk.

https://alphanews.org/minnesota-house-p ... ergy-bill/

The last person leaving Minnesota won't have to turn out the lights.

As they get closer, the date will be extended if the state is too far off. It’s like a term loan with a balloon maturity. Nobody expects it to be paid out of cash flow at maturity.

Watch out for CRE…. 4-6% cap rates going to 6.5-10% will be hell on LTVs.

To your point though in the Lev Loan market you get 1% annualized amortization of principal paid quarterly or similar typically. At year 7, if it gets there and when it does there’s a problem, you’ve still got 93% of the original principal outstanding.

Refinancing risk

Nobody ever deleverages....

[MDlaxfan76]

BTW, I am OK with a "Marshall Plan" to upgrade our electrical infrastructure.

So is every REAL conservative. Unfortunately, as you know, the Republican party has gutted the real conservatives, and we're left with Trump's minions .....who grew Federal spending by 66% in four years....all without spending a freaking cent on infrastructure.

The current National Republican party wouldn't know what a real 70's-era Conservative was if one sat on them. Old School Republican Conservatives believed in investing in our future....and in spending money that gave our Nation a return on investment.

"I LIke Ike"

[MDlaxfan76]

Minnesota leading the nation in foolishness. The left is allowed to ignore "the science" to the point where lives are at risk.

https://alphanews.org/minnesota-house-p ... ergy-bill/

The last person leaving Minnesota won't have to turn out the lights.

As they get closer, the date will be extended if the state is too far off. It’s like a term loan with a balloon maturity. Nobody expects it to be paid out of cash flow at maturity.

We have the same deal in Colorado.....we're putting in a new building, and we've been talking with our Electrical Engineers. They said they met with Xcel Energy to see if they know something they don't know, and that we stand a chance of hitting Colorado's energy goals.

Nope. We won't come even close to hitting it.

And even though some Colorado academics are pushing for what are being called "small advanced nuclear reactors".....we have no one else pushing.

It ain't just the libs.....left, right, center are unable to understand that nuclear is the obvious solution to our energy needs. Wanna be energy independent? Great....you should be SCREAMING for new nuclear plants in every State outside of Hawaii.

100%. Litigation at every step of the development process, a glacial permitting process and investment capital now coming with ESG scores for the borrower make it prohibitive to building a nuclear power plant. One would think nuclear US naval vessels would have had a reactor incident, but there has never been an accident.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america ... ct0604.pdf

"U.S. Nuclear Powered Warships (NPWs) have safely operated for more than 50 years
without experiencing any reactor accident or any release of radioactivity that hurt human health
or had an adverse effect on marine life. Naval reactors have an outstanding record of over
134 million miles safely steamed on nuclear power, and they have amassed over 5700
reactor-years of safe operation."

As for power stations:

March 1979
The worst nuclear accident in the United States occurred when a small amount of radiation was released from a partial meltdown at the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant near Harrisburg, Pa. Almost 150,000 people were evacuated after the accident, which was attributed to human error and mechanical failure.

February 11, 1981
Eight workers are contaminated when more than 100,000 gallons of radioactive coolant fluid leaks into the contaminant building of the Tennessee Valley Authority's Sequoyah 1 plant in Tennessee.

February 16, 2002
Severe corrosion of reactor vessel head forces 24-month outage of Davis-Besse reactor in Ohio.


Proven technology not dependent on wind or sunlight. Waste product manageable except for NIMBY's. We will eventually figure this out, but not before a lot of pain and suffering.

You do understand that your assertion is not supported by the carefully conditioned statement from the US Navy, correct? In addition, the operating conditions of naval reactors are significantly different than terrestrial ones, not to mention the scale.

Now, would some sort of smaller thorium reactor be useful? Perhaps, but the main issue here is the unwillingness to consider the true problem: inefficiency and distribution. Just swapping a different baseload generation facility (nuclear) for coal or gas fired turbine doesn't address the fact that the national grid is a fcuking antique held together with baling wire and chewing gum. Quick, what is the energy consumption of a fully energized "grid" with no draw? Delayed or no maintenance of vital infrastructure after 40+ years of "no new taxes" abetted by financial sophistry has lead us to this donnybrook. Took a while to get this fcuked, going to take a while, and, probably more money than was "saved" over the years to get out. Incidentally, who should pay for this long-delayed renovation and upgrade? The people who benefited from the parsimony, or the current rate payers?

Present an integrated vision of distributed generation that utilizes the best generation for a geographical location and reduces or eliminates the need for incredibly wasteful high-voltage "long-haul" distribution and I'll believe that you are informed and serious. Otherwise, regretfully, you'll have to be filed under the "know-nothing bray-loudly" category.

So what are your answers to the grid issues? We have what we have and as far as power generation, nuclear meets almost everyone's goal. The perfect need not be the enemy of the good.

I think he gave a bit of a hint in "smaller" nuclear which could be more localized, less long haul distribution. Likewise, localized solar offers major benefits in distribution efficiency. In some places, wind has these benefits too, as does geothermal.

We do not, IMO, need to assume "we have what we have" as the end of the discussion...efficient distribution technology and infrastructure would go a long way to needing to produce less power, but get it distributed with more total output.

But do as much localized energy production as possible.

It's crazy, at least to me, that we don't insist on all commercial construction to include solar on roof, at least in high sun regions. And same for all new residential. With subsidies for conversion.

Repeat: Get as much localized production of energy as possible!

So while we wait for the "cavalry" to arrive, which will take years and massive investment, we can hope the sun shines and the wind blows. BTW, I am OK with a "Marshall Plan" to upgrade our electrical infrastructure. We can even find good paying jobs for all of these people we are paying to sit home and binge watch Netflix. Win/win.

Glad to find some agreement.

Dunno who you mean by "paying to sit home and binge watch Netflix", though.

[Farfromgeneva]

Minnesota leading the nation in foolishness. The left is allowed to ignore "the science" to the point where lives are at risk.

https://alphanews.org/minnesota-house-p ... ergy-bill/

The last person leaving Minnesota won't have to turn out the lights.

As they get closer, the date will be extended if the state is too far off. It’s like a term loan with a balloon maturity. Nobody expects it to be paid out of cash flow at maturity.

We have the same deal in Colorado.....we're putting in a new building, and we've been talking with our Electrical Engineers. They said they met with Xcel Energy to see if they know something they don't know, and that we stand a chance of hitting Colorado's energy goals.

Nope. We won't come even close to hitting it.

And even though some Colorado academics are pushing for what are being called "small advanced nuclear reactors".....we have no one else pushing.

It ain't just the libs.....left, right, center are unable to understand that nuclear is the obvious solution to our energy needs. Wanna be energy independent? Great....you should be SCREAMING for new nuclear plants in every State outside of Hawaii.

100%. Litigation at every step of the development process, a glacial permitting process and investment capital now coming with ESG scores for the borrower make it prohibitive to building a nuclear power plant. One would think nuclear US naval vessels would have had a reactor incident, but there has never been an accident.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america ... ct0604.pdf

"U.S. Nuclear Powered Warships (NPWs) have safely operated for more than 50 years
without experiencing any reactor accident or any release of radioactivity that hurt human health
or had an adverse effect on marine life. Naval reactors have an outstanding record of over
134 million miles safely steamed on nuclear power, and they have amassed over 5700
reactor-years of safe operation."

As for power stations:

March 1979
The worst nuclear accident in the United States occurred when a small amount of radiation was released from a partial meltdown at the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant near Harrisburg, Pa. Almost 150,000 people were evacuated after the accident, which was attributed to human error and mechanical failure.

February 11, 1981
Eight workers are contaminated when more than 100,000 gallons of radioactive coolant fluid leaks into the contaminant building of the Tennessee Valley Authority's Sequoyah 1 plant in Tennessee.

February 16, 2002
Severe corrosion of reactor vessel head forces 24-month outage of Davis-Besse reactor in Ohio.


Proven technology not dependent on wind or sunlight. Waste product manageable except for NIMBY's. We will eventually figure this out, but not before a lot of pain and suffering.

You do understand that your assertion is not supported by the carefully conditioned statement from the US Navy, correct? In addition, the operating conditions of naval reactors are significantly different than terrestrial ones, not to mention the scale.

Now, would some sort of smaller thorium reactor be useful? Perhaps, but the main issue here is the unwillingness to consider the true problem: inefficiency and distribution. Just swapping a different baseload generation facility (nuclear) for coal or gas fired turbine doesn't address the fact that the national grid is a fcuking antique held together with baling wire and chewing gum. Quick, what is the energy consumption of a fully energized "grid" with no draw? Delayed or no maintenance of vital infrastructure after 40+ years of "no new taxes" abetted by financial sophistry has lead us to this donnybrook. Took a while to get this fcuked, going to take a while, and, probably more money than was "saved" over the years to get out. Incidentally, who should pay for this long-delayed renovation and upgrade? The people who benefited from the parsimony, or the current rate payers?

Present an integrated vision of distributed generation that utilizes the best generation for a geographical location and reduces or eliminates the need for incredibly wasteful high-voltage "long-haul" distribution and I'll believe that you are informed and serious. Otherwise, regretfully, you'll have to be filed under the "know-nothing bray-loudly" category.

So what are your answers to the grid issues? We have what we have and as far as power generation, nuclear meets almost everyone's goal. The perfect need not be the enemy of the good.

I think he gave a bit of a hint in "smaller" nuclear which could be more localized, less long haul distribution. Likewise, localized solar offers major benefits in distribution efficiency. In some places, wind has these benefits too, as does geothermal.

We do not, IMO, need to assume "we have what we have" as the end of the discussion...efficient distribution technology and infrastructure would go a long way to needing to produce less power, but get it distributed with more total output.

But do as much localized energy production as possible.

It's crazy, at least to me, that we don't insist on all commercial construction to include solar on roof, at least in high sun regions. And same for all new residential. With subsidies for conversion.

Repeat: Get as much localized production of energy as possible!

So while we wait for the "cavalry" to arrive, which will take years and massive investment, we can hope the sun shines and the wind blows. BTW, I am OK with a "Marshall Plan" to upgrade our electrical infrastructure. We can even find good paying jobs for all of these people we are paying to sit home and binge watch Netflix. Win/win.

Glad to find some agreement.

Dunno who you mean by "paying to sit home and binge watch Netflix", though.

Oh you know who he is referring to.

[kramerica.inc]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

[get it to x]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

It's the old "prove you're not a racist" theme. Hard to do, but I'll provide one anecdote. So I moved in last, but the first four houses to my left are Brazilian then African American x 3. On the right it's African American x 2, White x 2. Want to know the common thread among all of us? We all left Northeast states or California to gain some freedom, especially those with kids.

In FFG's mind these are the "wrong kind" of black and brown people.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

It's the old "prove you're not a racist" theme. Hard to do, but I'll provide one anecdote. So I moved in last, but the first four houses to my left are Brazilian then African American x 3. On the right it's African American x 2, White x 2. Want to know the common thread among all of us? We all left Northeast states or California to gain some freedom, especially those with kids.

In FFG's mind these are the "wrong kind" of black and brown people.

I repeat:
"Dunno who you mean by "paying to sit home and binge watch Netflix", though."

Who do you mean?

[MDlaxfan76]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

[get it to x]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Unemployment benefits go on and on. Eviction moratoriums. Many people can get mid to high 5 figures in benefits in the most generous states. What would you call that? A higher percentage of the population is being incentivized away from a work ethic. Would you call that a positive development?

[MDlaxfan76]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Unemployment benefits go on and on. (how long now?) Eviction moratoriums. (how long now?) Many people can get mid to high 5 figures in benefits in the most generous states. (where, show me) What would you call that? A higher percentage of the population is being incentivized away from a work ethic. (higher percentage than what?) Would you call that a positive development?

Can you provide some references on each of those statements?

Each one appears to me to be grossly exaggerated.

Federal unemployment extensions have ended. Most states are 26 weeks.

Federal eviction moratoriums have ended, most states too. A few end this March.

I don't know of any state that pays mid, much less high, 5 figure benefits.

[kramerica.inc]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Yes, many, many people got lazy and lost the drive to work.
Seeing it now across our entire directorate and on the gov't side with the lack of desire to even return to the office. From blue collar to white collar. it's why the work force is so depleted and the people who we can get to work, can name their price.

[get it to x]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Yes, many, many people got lazy and lost the drive to work.
Seeing it now across our entire directorate and on the gov't side with the lack of desire to even return to the office. From blue collar to white collar. it's why the work force is so depleted and the people who we can get to work, can name their price.

At the very least, nobody is jumping back into the job market until they use up all 26 weeks. This article says the benefits, including a large Obamacare subsidy, are equivalent to $110,000 annualized in New Jersey. The max weekly UE benefit is close to $1,100 and they pay $0.00 state tax.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/18/it-pays-n ... -benefits/

[SCLaxAttack]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Yes, many, many people got lazy and lost the drive to work.
Seeing it now across our entire directorate and on the gov't side with the lack of desire to even return to the office. From blue collar to white collar. it's why the work force is so depleted and the people who we can get to work, can name their price.

At the very least, nobody is jumping back into the job market until they use up all 26 weeks. This article says the benefits, including a large Obamacare subsidy, are equivalent to $110,000 annualized in New Jersey. The max weekly UE benefit is close to $1,100 and they pay $0.00 state tax.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/18/it-pays-n ... -benefits/

You make it sound like each NJ wage earner got $110k in benefits. To be clear, that’s $110,000 for a family of four when TWO adults were out of work.

I wonder what that number would have been had the Rs who controlled the exec and legislative branches in 2016-18 had not sat on their thumbs and passed the wonderful, glorious healthcare plan they promised as the replacement to the ACA. The same Rs who were against restricting insulin charges just last year.

[get it to x]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Yes, many, many people got lazy and lost the drive to work.
Seeing it now across our entire directorate and on the gov't side with the lack of desire to even return to the office. From blue collar to white collar. it's why the work force is so depleted and the people who we can get to work, can name their price.

At the very least, nobody is jumping back into the job market until they use up all 26 weeks. This article says the benefits, including a large Obamacare subsidy, are equivalent to $110,000 annualized in New Jersey. The max weekly UE benefit is close to $1,100 and they pay $0.00 state tax.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/18/it-pays-n ... -benefits/

You make it sound like each NJ wage earner got $110k in benefits. To be clear, that’s $110,000 for a family of four when TWO adults were out of work.

I wonder what that number would have been had the Rs who controlled the exec and legislative branches in 2016-18 had not sat on their thumbs and passed the wonderful, glorious healthcare plan they promised as the replacement to the ACA. The same Rs who were against restricting insulin charges just last year.

I referred you the article. Glad you read it. If I was trying to deceive you would I have linked to it? On Obamacare, that keeps going after the UE benefits expire. Ask Paul Ryan why we didn't repeal it.

[a fan]

I’m not tracking. Who is he referring to? Most of America that got lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

Did most of America get lazy thanks to all the covid payouts?

How large were those payouts that most people got?

Are they being paid to sit home watching Netflix...now???

Yes, many, many people got lazy and lost the drive to work.
Seeing it now across our entire directorate and on the gov't side with the lack of desire to even return to the office. From blue collar to white collar. it's why the work force is so depleted and the people who we can get to work, can name their price.

At the very least, nobody is jumping back into the job market until they use up all 26 weeks. This article says the benefits, including a large Obamacare subsidy, are equivalent to $110,000 annualized in New Jersey. The max weekly UE benefit is close to $1,100 and they pay $0.00 state tax.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/18/it-pays-n ... -benefits/

That article is right wing click bait.

Notice how the whole thing is couched in "could's". These journalists have access "what actually happens".....why aren't they writing about that? Why do you think? Because that's not a good "the libs are bad" story, and has no place in the NYPost.

So they instead take advantage of the fact that readers will walk with the idea that every single person is walking with $100K per year for the rest of their lives, cash on the barrelhead.

And why are they conflating potentialand MAXIMUM Obamacare benefits with Cash on the Barrelhead? Because it let's them pretend like letting someone who's unemployed see a doctor....is the same thing as someone handing them $50K in cash.

Notice how they hilariously make no mention of Trump? Who the F do the writers think handed out these enhanced unemployment bennies in the first place?

Want the REAL numbers, and you're really interested? Median numbers. Average numbers. I'll get them from my wife. This is her field.

Personally? I'm THRILLED that Trump actually bailed out humans, for a change....instead of ONLY handing out cash to Multinationals, many of whom simply used the funds for stock buy-backs. But naturally, that goes against their petty game of blaming the Dems for loosening limits on a program that TRUMP started...and has since, stopped.

[a fan]

Ask Paul Ryan why we didn't repeal it.

You know why. Because these health benefits keep hospitals open in Rural America. That's why. Rural America has collapsed, and this is all that's giving them access to a doctor within 100 miles of their homes.

Pull Obamacare? Turn off the lights in States like WV, AL, AK, WY, MT, ID, AL, AK.....etc., etc. Rural Colorado? It's been rough sledding out this way for years.

Don't believe me? Google "rural hospitals" and words like "closure" "failure"...etc.

FoxNews tries----desperately-----to convince their viewers that Federal bennies take money from working class Republicans, and sends it to lazy Dems in cities. It's the other way around.... It's literally why we're running a deficit.

Example? SNAP (Food Stamp) use is higher per capita in Rural vs. Urban America. Because: of course it is. And the only relief for these folks? Move to cities....which is precisely what they've been doing.

It's literally why every time your party gets into power, they EXPLODE spending. Every time. No exceptions. Last Republican POTUS to cut spending, as I keep saying, was Eisenhower. Your party is doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you think they're doing.

That welfare reform the Post piece mentioned, in 96, that ACTUALLY WORKED? Who signed that, get it to X? That's right. Slimy Bill Clinton, and that little D by his name.

I'm not championing the Dems, except Clinton for having the stones to sign that controversial bill. I'm telling you that..... on this issue? The Republicans are the problem. You can change my mind when a Republican POTUS cuts handouts and overall spending. My dad, who is 80, couldn't drive yet the last time that happened, FFS.

[MDlaxfan76]

New York Post
I was trying to understand whether the authors ever actually defined these "benefits"...they make some assertions about "some" families, but then never actually explain these "Obamacare subsidies"...how much value are these?...why not also say "benefits of a national defense" or "benefits of national highway system"...bet we could argue that these are valuable too.

And on unemployment, who here knows someone who has used unemployment?
When was that?
And what did they need to do to qualify for it each month?

Seriously, how many people do any of us know who is actually abusing the system?

I do know some people who realized they really didn't need both incomes, one or both decided to retire, but the one person I know who is chronically unemployed for serious stretches of time, and then employed again for stretches, earns $300k+ when he's working...and he's never tapped unemployment. Never considered it.

I'm not sure as well that I understand who all these reprobates are at home being paid to watch Netflix.

There are 2 million more people working in America than there were pre Covid.
Sure, there was a dip below that during the Covid downturn, but no more.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/269 ... ed-states/

[get it to x]

New York Post
I was trying to understand whether the authors ever actually defined these "benefits"...they make some assertions about "some" families, but then never actually explain these "Obamacare subsidies"...how much value are these?...why not also say "benefits of a national defense" or "benefits of national highway system"...bet we could argue that these are valuable too.

And on unemployment, who here knows someone who has used unemployment?
When was that?
And what did they need to do to qualify for it each month?

Seriously, how many people do any of us know who is actually abusing the system?

I do know some people who realized they really didn't need both incomes, one or both decided to retire, but the one person I know who is chronically unemployed for serious stretches of time, and then employed again for stretches, earns $300k+ when he's working...and he's never tapped unemployment. Never considered it.

I'm not sure as well that I understand who all these reprobates are at home being paid to watch Netflix.

There are 2 million more people working in America than there were pre Covid.
Sure, there was a dip below that during the Covid downturn, but no more.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/269 ... ed-states/

The workforce participation rate is one percentage point lower compared to pre-pandemic levels, which were already low based on historical patterns. How do you square that up? It just points out anybody, you or me, can cherry pick your statistic.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART

I would note that it went down somewhere around 3% during the Obama administration. I could be wrong, but didn't they allow states to relax the work requirements for welfare benefits?

[get it to x]

Ask Paul Ryan why we didn't repeal it.

You know why. Because these health benefits keep hospitals open in Rural America. That's why. Rural America has collapsed, and this is all that's giving them access to a doctor within 100 miles of their homes.

Pull Obamacare? Turn off the lights in States like WV, AL, AK, WY, MT, ID, AL, AK.....etc., etc. Rural Colorado? It's been rough sledding out this way for years.

Don't believe me? Google "rural hospitals" and words like "closure" "failure"...etc.

FoxNews tries----desperately-----to convince their viewers that Federal bennies take money from working class Republicans, and sends it to lazy Dems in cities. It's the other way around.... It's literally why we're running a deficit.

Example? SNAP (Food Stamp) use is higher per capita in Rural vs. Urban America. Because: of course it is. And the only relief for these folks? Move to cities....which is precisely what they've been doing.

It's literally why every time your party gets into power, they EXPLODE spending. Every time. No exceptions. Last Republican POTUS to cut spending, as I keep saying, was Eisenhower. Your party is doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you think they're doing.

That welfare reform the Post piece mentioned, in 96, that ACTUALLY WORKED? Who signed that, get it to X? That's right. Slimy Bill Clinton, and that little D by his name.

I'm not championing the Dems, except Clinton for having the stones to sign that controversial bill. I'm telling you that..... on this issue? The Republicans are the problem. You can change my mind when a Republican POTUS cuts handouts and overall spending. My dad, who is 80, couldn't drive yet the last time that happened, FFS.

Here is a good article from 2016 on the 1996 reform bill. It wasn't perfect, and the only way it got done was to de-couple Medicaid reform from Welfare reform. Gingrich had to finally relent when a bunch of Republican representatives forced his hand.

Bills don't magically appear on a President's desk. He vetoed two previous reform bills, but I give Clinton credit as a politician for holding out for the revised bill, which BTW, is derided to this day by many progressives.

https://time.com/4446348/welfare-reform-20-years/