old salt wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:31 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:59 pm
I asked a direct, serious question which you have avoided answering again and again and again. Is the question making you uncomfortable? Needing to confront the implications of your views as expressed?
Your question was anything but direct. More like out of left field.
I still don't know what you're trying to get me to say, so you can mangle it to fit your agenda. I seek peace & stability.
Given the cost in blood & treasure, & the uncertain future, I would have been satisfied had Ukraine gone the route of Belarus.
We have no idea how this mess in Ukraine is going to play out. It's going to be a flash point for a wider war for the foreseeable future.
Again, avoidance.
FIRST:
You said you'd have preferred that Ukraine went the way of Belarus and had joined the Union State. Would have avoided Ukrainian lives lost and our treasure.
I responded:
"So, your preferred answer to the disposition of Ukraine's people and their aspirations for democracy and prosperity would have been and remains that they be another authoritarian state under the control of Putin's Russian hegemonic ambitions?"
I continue to understand you to be saying, 'yes, that's what I'd have preferred'. If there's something about the way I've expressed that outcome with which you disagree, you've avoided addressing it.
SECOND:
You had this exchange with Geneva:
old salt wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:02 am
Geneva:
When some people talk about lives lost in other countries I wonder how little they care when they use that as a cheap prop to try and win an argument.
Old Salt:
How many Memorial Services for lost friends have you participated in, sport ?....& I don't mean OD's.
You then commented:
"The arrogance of not having experienced the Cold War as an adult."
So I responded to your exchange with Geneva:
Serious question: Assuming you mean memorial services for those who lost their lives fighting one or another authoritarians, were their sacrifices "stupid"? Were they "losers"?
Or were those sacrifices important to America and to the freedoms and prosperity we have enjoyed for 70+ years and today?
And you keep ignoring, avoiding responding to that serious and quite direct question. It was made directly to you, not the ether.
You talk about memorial services, Cold War, and preferring that Ukraine had simply rolled over and aligned with Russia in furtherance of Putin's hegemonic ambitions.
My question (explained further) was whether those who die in service of democracy and sovereignty (ala the Cold War) were sacrifices that should NOT have been made? Were those who sacrificed "stupid" and "losers" ala Trump's description of those who died or were injured or were captured in such wars?
You made the connection with the memorial services you'd experienced, fallen comrades presumably, and dismissed Geneva for the "arrogance of not having experienced the Cold War" as you've argued that Ukraine should not have embraced western democracy, sought prosperity with the West, and instead have continued to have been ruled by authoritarian under the thumb of Russia. They certainly shouldn't have died in the defense of their own ambitions for freedom. And we certainly should not have encouraged such aspirations.