Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:50 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:39 pm
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:49 pm
Gretchen wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 2:56 pm
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:51 am
Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...
the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.
Over the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.
Brooklyn,
"true Torah"???
I'm perplexed about where you're coming on this topic.
Do you subscribe to this version of Jewish faith and practice yourself?
Not for nuthin' but you are sounding a bit like the evangelical sorts in my faith who believe there is only one true, literal reading acceptable to God. Any variation and one is condemned to eternal damnation. But perhaps I'm mistaking your point.
Do you really understand any of this?
True Torah (more commonly known as Orthodox) adherents go by a strict interpretation of the "Tanakh" or what Christians call Old Testament. Over the years they have challenged Zionists to refute what they teach. Zionists have failed to refute any of their teachings. If you think you know the Bible better than they do, then by all means go ahead and accept their open challenge. I guarantee they will make you look awfully dumb.
I recall having mentioned in LP that my own ancestry is Sefardic and that my ancestors succumbed to the brutalities of the Inquisition by becoming what are called "conversos". As for the Bible, just go ahead and believe what you want to believe. Since I do not know Hebrew I sure as heck cannot debate the Old Testament's actual meaning with anyone. But I can certainly debate the New Testament as it is fully translated as shown in
Strong's Concordance. Over the years I have debated it with many delusional far right types who think they know the book but don't actually know squat.
Believe what you want. Just don't criticize. Especially remember the immortal words of Bob Dylan ~ never criticize what you don't understand.
Thanks for the explanation...interesting background as well.
I will repeat. You sound like evangelical Christians who believe there is only one correct interpretation of the Bible. They can quote chapter and verse, weaving together disparate pieces of scripture to make their claims as to meaning; they claim special and singular meanings to words and phrases, etc...and brook no actual debate. Which I find wholly unpersuasive, for all sorts of reasons. The least of these is my disagreement with their conclusions in particular hot button social topics.
In fact, I much prefer the concept of midrash as a construct for considering text. And I prefer (and believe) that both Old and New Testaments are best read poetically, with meaning to be found in the words as present and not there, sounds where there are no words.
As I have quite a few friends, fellow BD members, and former business partners who are Orthodox, I'm familiar with the diversity within what we call 'Orthodox' as well as other flavors of Jewish faith and practice, as well as more 'cultural' understandings of Judaism. As a longtime broad member (currently on hiatus) of the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies (
www.ICJS.org) I'm also quite familiar with text analysis in each of these faiths.
But would certainly not claim expertise, nor would try to debate texts with those who are.
As to "refute", I don't think one can successfully "refute" another's interpretation of their scripture. One can point out alternative understandings and scripture, but there's no overcoming fundamentalist or orthodox beliefs that theirs is the sole interpretation delivered from God.
So, it is unsurprising that you think "Zionists" have never "refuted" "any of their teachings". However, I'm also pretty confident other Orthodox Jews quite disagree with them, yet are no less studious in their understandings of scripture. Other Jews may not be as bound to the scripture in their beliefs, but I'm not going to suggest they are "wrong" in their beliefs simply because scraps of scripture call them to certain practices of beliefs of ancient times.
Again, I'm not remotely in the camp that thinks using scripture to justify one faith's or people's claims to this particular land is more valid than another's claims. Indeed, I think that's a path that inevitably leads to hard line positions contrary to peace, which at least in my own interpretation of God's will is what we should strive towards, however imperfectly.
The 'reason' for the creation of a Jewish State was and remains based in addressing the challenge outlined by Gretchen.
Was it the best answer? Was it the best process for arriving at that answer?
Well, it certainly has proven to be problematic, not the least of which because there was never an appropriate answer for Palestinians, acceptable to them as well.
Of course, none of that addresses what to do going forward, given the realities of today.