A "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
A "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
You understand the problem here, though, right?PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
... what bullsh*t, OConnor's and Mahers.youthathletics wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:04 amSpeaking of Bill Maher and the nonsense of Western Civ.... : https://x.com/LarryOConnor/status/17208 ... 93465?s=20Kismet wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:05 amWere any of this opiners ( and I include Bill Maher in this group) on a college campus in the 1960s-early 70s? There was much more violence and rhetoric. 4 students were essentially murdered on a college campus at Kent State by National Guardsmen in 1970.Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:52 amThis is an almost laughably simplistic screed about a constituency that resists nuance and balance, which is acquired, history and our own lives tell us, over the course of time and experience. College campuses aren't -- when we are talking generally about the student population -- about deep thoughts; we are talking about drama, fitting in, learning and experimenting, etc. But suggesting that a bunch of fracas on campus translates directly into, or is the result of, "the radical anti-Western vision" is just stupid. But you seem to like adults who traffic in this sort of black and white "journalism" and opinion.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:47 amhttps://www.nationalreview.com/2023/10/ ... -the-west/
Anti-Israel Demonstrators Hate the West
By RICH LOWRY, October 27, 2023
The cataract of anti-Israel sentiment on college campuses has been shocking, but it shouldn’t be surprising.
It is the poisoned fruit of teaching a generation of college students to despise their own civilization.
Jesse Jackson famously led a chant at Stanford University in 1987, “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go.” He was talking about the college course, but he might as well have been talking about the thing itself.
Jackson and his allies had extraordinary success in extinguishing the teaching of Western Civ. Not only have we largely stopped transmitting the story of our own civilization, we have substituted an alternative narrative that the West is reducible to racism, imperialism, and colonialism.
It is in this context that the current outburst of anti-Zionism has to be understood. Yes, it has been fed by anti-Israel agitation on campus over the decades, and yes, students are susceptible to witless radicalism in the best of circumstances. Yet the loathing of Israel is particularly intense because it is viewed as an outpost of Western civilization and all its alleged ills.
The hatred of Israel is tainted by, and in some cases driven by, antisemitism. Another way to look at it, though, is that it’s not so much about hatred of “the other,” as progressives put it, as hatred of ourselves and all our works.
It is, on one level, incorrect to consider Israel exclusively an artifact of the West. The Jews are indigenous to the region going back to Abraham, with their story caught up in the story of the land. A large proportion of the current population traces its origins from the Middle East and North Africa rather than Europe.
But there is no doubt that Israel is a Western society — in its political system, in its respect for rights, in its innovative economy, in its mores. Someone sitting in a coffee shop in Tel Aviv could easily think they were in any thriving coastal society in the West.
From any rational perspective, this would be something to celebrate. Many legitimate criticisms can be made of Israel, and indeed are a feature of the Israeli domestic debate itself, but there’s no doubt that it is a flourishing society.
If Gaza were equally Westernized, it would be worrying about whether it’s overbuilding seaside real estate rather than having to get water and electricity from the neighboring country its governing authority — a savage terror group — is trying to destroy.
Yet this is the society that anti-Western opinion holds up and wants to sweep all before it. This point of view loves Gaza for its failure and hates Israel for its success; loves Gaza for its terror and hates Israel for its self-defense; loves Gaza for its vicious anti-Western sponsors and hates Israel for its Western allies, especially the United States.
If this seems perverse, it’s what you’d expect of students and young people who have absorbed the premises of Michel Foucault, Howard Zinn, Edward Said, and their imitators. Even if students have never heard of them, these men and their thought suffuse higher education.
But what about the violence? How can these kids look past it, or implicitly endorse it?
Violence is part of the radical anti-Western vision. The anti-colonial bible, The Wretched of the Earth, written by Frantz Fanon in 1961, is widely taught on campus. Fanon sketched out a woke worldview before anyone used that term, arguing that, as a New Yorker essay put it, “the Western bourgeoisie was ‘fundamentally racist’ and its ‘bourgeois ideology’ of equality and dignity was merely a cover for capitalist-imperialist rapacity.”
Fanon wrote that “decolonization is always a violent phenomenon,” and in a preface to the book, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre declared that the wretched of the earth “become men” through “mad fury.”
By this standard, Hamas is a good and worthy anti-colonial organization, and there’s no wonder it has found supporters and useful idiots among the West’s self-loathing radicals.
None of us should shed a tear for a dead Hamas fighter or leader. We can rejoice it. But the situation on the ground -- murdered Israeli citizens, and displaced and dead Gazan Palestinians, with likely more of both to come -- is itself the result of decades and decades of stupidity and venality. It's complicated. So it is little wonder that college students are not yet well equipped to process it, digest, assimilate and synthesize all of the varied threads that go into and resulted in today. Indicting whole institutions because of these young people's reactions is just f*cking stupid.
Why not write about something obvious but important. If there was a military solution to this, we would have had this solved long ago. Through little fault of their own, Palestinians are stuck living among a leadership that knows nothing other than war, nothing other than the credo of death. Israelis have the right to peace, prosperity and safety. The answer is building rather than blasting. Israel will not be able to neutralize the threat, within the confines of military doctrine. They can reduce supplies; eliminate, for now, weapons supplies and ordnance; temporarily decapitate the leadership; but Hamas will always come back. Its Arab paymasters will help it reconstitute. So the aim has to be to free Palestinians from the disaster of living side by side with their own cruel and soulless leadership.
Why not write about something like that from the pulpit of a formerly well-regarded conservative media outlet? Nope: it's easier and more "popular" to make "traitors" of kids, and traitor-manufacturers out of the colleges and universities where they stop for four years in the course of a long lifetime. You read and post this sh*t because it feeds your narrative, not because it has any deep meaning.
In the current situation, I think some are trying to differentiate terrorists from Palestinians which can be a difference very difficult to discern to many folks - especially the usual clueless crowd. For the Israelis, this is also a problem as the bad guys routinely mingle with the civilian population as a matter of strategy.
I think he is speaking to people like MDlax, and not intended as a jab.
... what bullsh*t, OConnor's and Mahers.youthathletics wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:04 amSpeaking of Bill Maher and the nonsense of Western Civ.... : https://x.com/LarryOConnor/status/17208 ... 93465?s=20Kismet wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:05 amWere any of this opiners ( and I include Bill Maher in this group) on a college campus in the 1960s-early 70s? There was much more violence and rhetoric. 4 students were essentially murdered on a college campus at Kent State by National Guardsmen in 1970.Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:52 amThis is an almost laughably simplistic screed about a constituency that resists nuance and balance, which is acquired, history and our own lives tell us, over the course of time and experience. College campuses aren't -- when we are talking generally about the student population -- about deep thoughts; we are talking about drama, fitting in, learning and experimenting, etc. But suggesting that a bunch of fracas on campus translates directly into, or is the result of, "the radical anti-Western vision" is just stupid. But you seem to like adults who traffic in this sort of black and white "journalism" and opinion.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:47 amhttps://www.nationalreview.com/2023/10/ ... -the-west/
Anti-Israel Demonstrators Hate the West
By RICH LOWRY, October 27, 2023
The cataract of anti-Israel sentiment on college campuses has been shocking, but it shouldn’t be surprising.
It is the poisoned fruit of teaching a generation of college students to despise their own civilization.
Jesse Jackson famously led a chant at Stanford University in 1987, “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go.” He was talking about the college course, but he might as well have been talking about the thing itself.
Jackson and his allies had extraordinary success in extinguishing the teaching of Western Civ. Not only have we largely stopped transmitting the story of our own civilization, we have substituted an alternative narrative that the West is reducible to racism, imperialism, and colonialism.
It is in this context that the current outburst of anti-Zionism has to be understood. Yes, it has been fed by anti-Israel agitation on campus over the decades, and yes, students are susceptible to witless radicalism in the best of circumstances. Yet the loathing of Israel is particularly intense because it is viewed as an outpost of Western civilization and all its alleged ills.
The hatred of Israel is tainted by, and in some cases driven by, antisemitism. Another way to look at it, though, is that it’s not so much about hatred of “the other,” as progressives put it, as hatred of ourselves and all our works.
It is, on one level, incorrect to consider Israel exclusively an artifact of the West. The Jews are indigenous to the region going back to Abraham, with their story caught up in the story of the land. A large proportion of the current population traces its origins from the Middle East and North Africa rather than Europe.
But there is no doubt that Israel is a Western society — in its political system, in its respect for rights, in its innovative economy, in its mores. Someone sitting in a coffee shop in Tel Aviv could easily think they were in any thriving coastal society in the West.
From any rational perspective, this would be something to celebrate. Many legitimate criticisms can be made of Israel, and indeed are a feature of the Israeli domestic debate itself, but there’s no doubt that it is a flourishing society.
If Gaza were equally Westernized, it would be worrying about whether it’s overbuilding seaside real estate rather than having to get water and electricity from the neighboring country its governing authority — a savage terror group — is trying to destroy.
Yet this is the society that anti-Western opinion holds up and wants to sweep all before it. This point of view loves Gaza for its failure and hates Israel for its success; loves Gaza for its terror and hates Israel for its self-defense; loves Gaza for its vicious anti-Western sponsors and hates Israel for its Western allies, especially the United States.
If this seems perverse, it’s what you’d expect of students and young people who have absorbed the premises of Michel Foucault, Howard Zinn, Edward Said, and their imitators. Even if students have never heard of them, these men and their thought suffuse higher education.
But what about the violence? How can these kids look past it, or implicitly endorse it?
Violence is part of the radical anti-Western vision. The anti-colonial bible, The Wretched of the Earth, written by Frantz Fanon in 1961, is widely taught on campus. Fanon sketched out a woke worldview before anyone used that term, arguing that, as a New Yorker essay put it, “the Western bourgeoisie was ‘fundamentally racist’ and its ‘bourgeois ideology’ of equality and dignity was merely a cover for capitalist-imperialist rapacity.”
Fanon wrote that “decolonization is always a violent phenomenon,” and in a preface to the book, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre declared that the wretched of the earth “become men” through “mad fury.”
By this standard, Hamas is a good and worthy anti-colonial organization, and there’s no wonder it has found supporters and useful idiots among the West’s self-loathing radicals.
None of us should shed a tear for a dead Hamas fighter or leader. We can rejoice it. But the situation on the ground -- murdered Israeli citizens, and displaced and dead Gazan Palestinians, with likely more of both to come -- is itself the result of decades and decades of stupidity and venality. It's complicated. So it is little wonder that college students are not yet well equipped to process it, digest, assimilate and synthesize all of the varied threads that go into and resulted in today. Indicting whole institutions because of these young people's reactions is just f*cking stupid.
Why not write about something obvious but important. If there was a military solution to this, we would have had this solved long ago. Through little fault of their own, Palestinians are stuck living among a leadership that knows nothing other than war, nothing other than the credo of death. Israelis have the right to peace, prosperity and safety. The answer is building rather than blasting. Israel will not be able to neutralize the threat, within the confines of military doctrine. They can reduce supplies; eliminate, for now, weapons supplies and ordnance; temporarily decapitate the leadership; but Hamas will always come back. Its Arab paymasters will help it reconstitute. So the aim has to be to free Palestinians from the disaster of living side by side with their own cruel and soulless leadership.
Why not write about something like that from the pulpit of a formerly well-regarded conservative media outlet? Nope: it's easier and more "popular" to make "traitors" of kids, and traitor-manufacturers out of the colleges and universities where they stop for four years in the course of a long lifetime. You read and post this sh*t because it feeds your narrative, not because it has any deep meaning.
In the current situation, I think some are trying to differentiate terrorists from Palestinians which can be a difference very difficult to discern to many folks - especially the usual clueless crowd. For the Israelis, this is also a problem as the bad guys routinely mingle with the civilian population as a matter of strategy.
I think he is speaking to people like MDlax, and not intended as a jab.
... in my observation, Trump de-balled Maher. Maher has gone down hill since 2016. Never watch him, haven't since 2018. If YA is now paying attention to Maher, my decision would seen to be a good one.a fan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:33 pmBill Maher makes the same, tired, boring mistake that right wing media feeds on: when he hears about "student at XYZ school protest Israel", he assumes that the handful of kids that are a part of a protest means that all of the 10,000 kids on a campus think the same way that 20 kids do.youthathletics wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:04 amSpeaking of Bill Maher and the nonsense of Western Civ.... : https://x.com/LarryOConnor/status/17208 ... 93465?s=20Kismet wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:05 amWere any of this opiners ( and I include Bill Maher in this group) on a college campus in the 1960s-early 70s? There was much more violence and rhetoric. 4 students were essentially murdered on a college campus at Kent State by National Guardsmen in 1970.Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:52 amThis is an almost laughably simplistic screed about a constituency that resists nuance and balance, which is acquired, history and our own lives tell us, over the course of time and experience. College campuses aren't -- when we are talking generally about the student population -- about deep thoughts; we are talking about drama, fitting in, learning and experimenting, etc. But suggesting that a bunch of fracas on campus translates directly into, or is the result of, "the radical anti-Western vision" is just stupid. But you seem to like adults who traffic in this sort of black and white "journalism" and opinion.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:47 amhttps://www.nationalreview.com/2023/10/ ... -the-west/
Anti-Israel Demonstrators Hate the West
By RICH LOWRY, October 27, 2023
The cataract of anti-Israel sentiment on college campuses has been shocking, but it shouldn’t be surprising.
It is the poisoned fruit of teaching a generation of college students to despise their own civilization.
Jesse Jackson famously led a chant at Stanford University in 1987, “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go.” He was talking about the college course, but he might as well have been talking about the thing itself.
Jackson and his allies had extraordinary success in extinguishing the teaching of Western Civ. Not only have we largely stopped transmitting the story of our own civilization, we have substituted an alternative narrative that the West is reducible to racism, imperialism, and colonialism.
It is in this context that the current outburst of anti-Zionism has to be understood. Yes, it has been fed by anti-Israel agitation on campus over the decades, and yes, students are susceptible to witless radicalism in the best of circumstances. Yet the loathing of Israel is particularly intense because it is viewed as an outpost of Western civilization and all its alleged ills.
The hatred of Israel is tainted by, and in some cases driven by, antisemitism. Another way to look at it, though, is that it’s not so much about hatred of “the other,” as progressives put it, as hatred of ourselves and all our works.
It is, on one level, incorrect to consider Israel exclusively an artifact of the West. The Jews are indigenous to the region going back to Abraham, with their story caught up in the story of the land. A large proportion of the current population traces its origins from the Middle East and North Africa rather than Europe.
But there is no doubt that Israel is a Western society — in its political system, in its respect for rights, in its innovative economy, in its mores. Someone sitting in a coffee shop in Tel Aviv could easily think they were in any thriving coastal society in the West.
From any rational perspective, this would be something to celebrate. Many legitimate criticisms can be made of Israel, and indeed are a feature of the Israeli domestic debate itself, but there’s no doubt that it is a flourishing society.
If Gaza were equally Westernized, it would be worrying about whether it’s overbuilding seaside real estate rather than having to get water and electricity from the neighboring country its governing authority — a savage terror group — is trying to destroy.
Yet this is the society that anti-Western opinion holds up and wants to sweep all before it. This point of view loves Gaza for its failure and hates Israel for its success; loves Gaza for its terror and hates Israel for its self-defense; loves Gaza for its vicious anti-Western sponsors and hates Israel for its Western allies, especially the United States.
If this seems perverse, it’s what you’d expect of students and young people who have absorbed the premises of Michel Foucault, Howard Zinn, Edward Said, and their imitators. Even if students have never heard of them, these men and their thought suffuse higher education.
But what about the violence? How can these kids look past it, or implicitly endorse it?
Violence is part of the radical anti-Western vision. The anti-colonial bible, The Wretched of the Earth, written by Frantz Fanon in 1961, is widely taught on campus. Fanon sketched out a woke worldview before anyone used that term, arguing that, as a New Yorker essay put it, “the Western bourgeoisie was ‘fundamentally racist’ and its ‘bourgeois ideology’ of equality and dignity was merely a cover for capitalist-imperialist rapacity.”
Fanon wrote that “decolonization is always a violent phenomenon,” and in a preface to the book, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre declared that the wretched of the earth “become men” through “mad fury.”
By this standard, Hamas is a good and worthy anti-colonial organization, and there’s no wonder it has found supporters and useful idiots among the West’s self-loathing radicals.
None of us should shed a tear for a dead Hamas fighter or leader. We can rejoice it. But the situation on the ground -- murdered Israeli citizens, and displaced and dead Gazan Palestinians, with likely more of both to come -- is itself the result of decades and decades of stupidity and venality. It's complicated. So it is little wonder that college students are not yet well equipped to process it, digest, assimilate and synthesize all of the varied threads that go into and resulted in today. Indicting whole institutions because of these young people's reactions is just f*cking stupid.
Why not write about something obvious but important. If there was a military solution to this, we would have had this solved long ago. Through little fault of their own, Palestinians are stuck living among a leadership that knows nothing other than war, nothing other than the credo of death. Israelis have the right to peace, prosperity and safety. The answer is building rather than blasting. Israel will not be able to neutralize the threat, within the confines of military doctrine. They can reduce supplies; eliminate, for now, weapons supplies and ordnance; temporarily decapitate the leadership; but Hamas will always come back. Its Arab paymasters will help it reconstitute. So the aim has to be to free Palestinians from the disaster of living side by side with their own cruel and soulless leadership.
Why not write about something like that from the pulpit of a formerly well-regarded conservative media outlet? Nope: it's easier and more "popular" to make "traitors" of kids, and traitor-manufacturers out of the colleges and universities where they stop for four years in the course of a long lifetime. You read and post this sh*t because it feeds your narrative, not because it has any deep meaning.
In the current situation, I think some are trying to differentiate terrorists from Palestinians which can be a difference very difficult to discern to many folks - especially the usual clueless crowd. For the Israelis, this is also a problem as the bad guys routinely mingle with the civilian population as a matter of strategy.
I think he is speaking to people like MDlax, and not intended as a jab.
Newsflash, Bill: since the 60's? America has ALWAYS had radical lefties and righties on campus. Always. Every year. Stop falling for clickbait, Boomer.
We had Pro-Palestinian nutjobs protesting on Campus and around Ann Arbor for every year I was there. This is NOT new. And their numbers (duh) grow every time a war flares up in Israel. In other news, water is wet.
But those few that are protesting do not represent every student and professor's views on campus any more than Hannity represents Rachel Maddow's views.
When did Maher get this stupid? He used to be able to see past low brow interpretations like this.
It's not that unusual if it's one of the four SSGN's (converted "boomers" with cruise missiles replacing ICBM's).Kismet wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:24 pm On November 5, 2023, an Ohio-class submarine arrived in the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility. BIG Move - very unusual for DoD to disclose this type of deployment - they mean BUSINESS.
"The Ohio-class submarine is a class of nuclear-powered submarines used by the United States Navy. They are primarily designed for strategic deterrence and have multiple roles:
1. Strategic Nuclear Deterrence: These submarines are equipped with ballistic missiles armed with nuclear warheads. Their main role is to provide a second-strike capability, ensuring that the U.S. maintains a credible nuclear deterrent.
2. Versatility: Ohio-class submarines can carry up to 24 Trident II D5 nuclear missiles, but they can also be reconfigured to carry conventional Tomahawk cruise missiles for non-nuclear missions.
3. Stealth: They are known for their stealth and ability to operate quietly beneath the ocean’s surface, making them difficult to detect by adversaries.
4. Long Patrols: These submarines can remain submerged for extended periods, allowing them to patrol and maintain a continuous presence in strategic areas.
5. Central Command Area of Responsibility: When an Ohio-class submarine arrives in the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility, it could be part of a broader U.S. military strategy in the region, which may involve deterrence, surveillance, or support for national security objectives.
Ohio-class submarines play a crucial role in the U.S. nuclear triad and can serve various strategic and tactical missions to protect national security interests. Their arrival in a specific area of responsibility may be part of broader military planning and objectives."
The problem which is pretty much unresolvable is managing creep of scope by Israeli leadership while allowing them some latitude given the circumstances. Not like one can create a “box” of rules that’s completely rigid and balance isn’t exactly “equal” weighting of action/reaction given the history and circumstances. But once you fall outside a hard rule set I can’t imagine many human beings that wouldn’t slide towards draconian behavior towards antagonists.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
More information...Centcom released a photo of the sub traversing the Suez Canal on the surface. Now identified as USS Florida. Expectation is that perhaps the Ike strike group will follow in the coming days. Vinson strike Group departed San Diego two weeks ago for deployment to the Indo-Pacific. Reagan strike Group is in port in South Korea. In addition, photos released of U.S. Air Force B-1 bomber with attached sniper pod was flying over Saudi Arabia Sunday when the cruise missile submarine USS Florida transited the Suez Canal. The B-1 carries the largest conventional bomb payload in the Air Force’s inventory.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:13 pmIt's not that unusual if it's one of the four SSGN's (converted "boomers" with cruise missiles replacing ICBM's).Kismet wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:24 pm On November 5, 2023, an Ohio-class submarine arrived in the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility. BIG Move - very unusual for DoD to disclose this type of deployment - they mean BUSINESS.
"The Ohio-class submarine is a class of nuclear-powered submarines used by the United States Navy. They are primarily designed for strategic deterrence and have multiple roles:
1. Strategic Nuclear Deterrence: These submarines are equipped with ballistic missiles armed with nuclear warheads. Their main role is to provide a second-strike capability, ensuring that the U.S. maintains a credible nuclear deterrent.
2. Versatility: Ohio-class submarines can carry up to 24 Trident II D5 nuclear missiles, but they can also be reconfigured to carry conventional Tomahawk cruise missiles for non-nuclear missions.
3. Stealth: They are known for their stealth and ability to operate quietly beneath the ocean’s surface, making them difficult to detect by adversaries.
4. Long Patrols: These submarines can remain submerged for extended periods, allowing them to patrol and maintain a continuous presence in strategic areas.
5. Central Command Area of Responsibility: When an Ohio-class submarine arrives in the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility, it could be part of a broader U.S. military strategy in the region, which may involve deterrence, surveillance, or support for national security objectives.
Ohio-class submarines play a crucial role in the U.S. nuclear triad and can serve various strategic and tactical missions to protect national security interests. Their arrival in a specific area of responsibility may be part of broader military planning and objectives."
Their presence & even port visits to trouble spots are publicized when it's a useful warning signal.
The failure to distinguish in the release between SSN, SSBN & SSGN is unusual. The sub's name is usually included.
Most likely it's one of the four SSGN's. We would not want to indicate the presence of a SSBN or SSN.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/11/asia/uss ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/21/politics ... index.html
https://news.usni.org/2023/06/16/guided ... outh-korea
https://news.usni.org/2023/04/08/navy-a ... iddle-east
https://www.c7f.navy.mil/Media/News/Dis ... rtnership/
Short posts tend to be easily misunderstood for what they don't say or don't say clearly.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
I think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:29 amShort posts tend to be easily misunderstood for what they don't say or don't say clearly.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
Are you asking whether Baducchi acknowledges that there's a 'cost' to defending Israel's existence? Presumably he does. Is he asking for that "cost" to be unlimited? Maybe, if the alternative is actually existential. One could certainly argue that if one should be willing to pay any cost if the alternative is existential for oneself, one's loved ones, community, nation.
Or are you suggesting that no "cost to other human beings" is worth Israel's "right to exist", Jews right to exist in their own state, free of terrorism or military aggression from neighbors?
It's more complicated, right?
I'm guessing that neither of you is advocating maximizing the cost to others in order to achieve benefit to oneself, one's own people's benefit.
Here’s the anti Hamas protest.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 amI think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:29 amShort posts tend to be easily misunderstood for what they don't say or don't say clearly.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
Are you asking whether Baducchi acknowledges that there's a 'cost' to defending Israel's existence? Presumably he does. Is he asking for that "cost" to be unlimited? Maybe, if the alternative is actually existential. One could certainly argue that if one should be willing to pay any cost if the alternative is existential for oneself, one's loved ones, community, nation.
Or are you suggesting that no "cost to other human beings" is worth Israel's "right to exist", Jews right to exist in their own state, free of terrorism or military aggression from neighbors?
It's more complicated, right?
I'm guessing that neither of you is advocating maximizing the cost to others in order to achieve benefit to oneself, one's own people's benefit.
theirFarfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:15 amHere’s the anti Hamas protest.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 amI think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:29 amShort posts tend to be easily misunderstood for what they don't say or don't say clearly.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
Are you asking whether Baducchi acknowledges that there's a 'cost' to defending Israel's existence? Presumably he does. Is he asking for that "cost" to be unlimited? Maybe, if the alternative is actually existential. One could certainly argue that if one should be willing to pay any cost if the alternative is existential for oneself, one's loved ones, community, nation.
Or are you suggesting that no "cost to other human beings" is worth Israel's "right to exist", Jews right to exist in their own state, free of terrorism or military aggression from neighbors?
It's more complicated, right?
I'm guessing that neither of you is advocating maximizing the cost to others in order to achieve benefit to oneself, one's own people's benefit.
https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-pro ... -authority
But more effective than fat old people arguing the sky isn’t blue while looking up because they’re god told them it was a different color.
Actually, I don't think I'm "over-complicating" anything. As my multiple posts on this topic should have made clear, I think acknowledging and addressing the complexity is essential for any hope of resolution, any potential for an end to the cycle of horrific violence.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 amI think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:29 amShort posts tend to be easily misunderstood for what they don't say or don't say clearly.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
Are you asking whether Baducchi acknowledges that there's a 'cost' to defending Israel's existence? Presumably he does. Is he asking for that "cost" to be unlimited? Maybe, if the alternative is actually existential. One could certainly argue that if one should be willing to pay any cost if the alternative is existential for oneself, one's loved ones, community, nation.
Or are you suggesting that no "cost to other human beings" is worth Israel's "right to exist", Jews right to exist in their own state, free of terrorism or military aggression from neighbors?
It's more complicated, right?
I'm guessing that neither of you is advocating maximizing the cost to others in order to achieve benefit to oneself, one's own people's benefit.
Sure. But....where are the long term, weeks long protests?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:14 am As to a fan's question, I'd need to go back and check for any additional context, but in it's simplest form, I'd say there was an immediate and overwhelming sense of shock and revulsion at the horror of the Hamas terrorists' acts from most of the American populace and a swift response from President Biden calling those acts reprehensible. No equivocation.
Let's play this out: what happens if Israel feels cut off? You really want to back that fully nuclear bear in a corner, with the entire world against them?\MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:14 am However, in contrast to the general American populace, and the government's policy, a majority of younger Americans see the situation less about the existential rights of Jews to live in peace in Israel and more about the apartheid treatment of Palestinians by the current generation of Israelis in power. They have opposed the US government's ongoing support of this right-wing Israeli government, and now oppose the overwhelming force being used. Indeed, Israel has been fractured along these lines as well. Thus, Pro-Palestinian protests in countries in which protests are allowed.... Many in those protests simply want humanitarian concerns to be addressed without further bloodshed, others are more virulently opposed to right-wing Israeli policies and even some find justification of extreme actions against the 'oppressor'. Young, hot-headed, but not without valid concerns.
Sure. And? Is the goal to point out a misspelling out of the many I make and ignore the content or attempt to critique my intellect which would be akin to Cradle calling people dumb if you get what I’m saying.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:50 amtheirFarfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:15 amHere’s the anti Hamas protest.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 amI think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:29 amShort posts tend to be easily misunderstood for what they don't say or don't say clearly.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:23 pmA "right to exist" regardless of the price paid by other humans? Is that what you are saying? Carte blanche? Ends justify the means?
That's a "no" from me, dog.
Are you asking whether Baducchi acknowledges that there's a 'cost' to defending Israel's existence? Presumably he does. Is he asking for that "cost" to be unlimited? Maybe, if the alternative is actually existential. One could certainly argue that if one should be willing to pay any cost if the alternative is existential for oneself, one's loved ones, community, nation.
Or are you suggesting that no "cost to other human beings" is worth Israel's "right to exist", Jews right to exist in their own state, free of terrorism or military aggression from neighbors?
It's more complicated, right?
I'm guessing that neither of you is advocating maximizing the cost to others in order to achieve benefit to oneself, one's own people's benefit.
https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-pro ... -authority
But more effective than fat old people arguing the sky isn’t blue while looking up because they’re god told them it was a different color.
Thank you for the thoughtful cliffs notes version of the recent past. But, you completely avoided the the question....where are the protests against Hamas/Palestine, and why are there none? I think you do not want to say the quite part out loud....and I seriously doubt you believe this, but the mere fact Israel has to defend itself ( practically daily for so long)and is one of the worlds most powerful military speaks volumes. ,....is a clue as to what the otherside wants.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:14 amActually, I don't think I'm "over-complicating" anything. As my multiple posts on this topic should have made clear, I think acknowledging and addressing the complexity is essential for any hope of resolution, any potential for an end to the cycle of horrific violence.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 am
I think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?
As to a fan's question, I'd need to go back and check for any additional context, but in it's simplest form, I'd say there was an immediate and overwhelming sense of shock and revulsion at the horror of the Hamas terrorists' acts from most of the American populace and a swift response from President Biden calling those acts reprehensible. No equivocation. And then an evolving concern was added to the official responses, from Biden, Blinken, and others about Israel's right and duty (note the second, duty as voiced by Biden and Blinken) to defend itself, supporting the goal of removing the threat of Hamas completely...and yet with concern over the 'how', a concern about civilian life, and then further evolution to begin to set the current actions in a context of a vision of future hope for a peaceful two-state solution.
As the majority view of Americans, and the current government, is that Israel has a right (and duty) to defend itself, including with great force, I'm not sure what there is to protest from a pro-Israel, anti-Hamas point of view. The Israeli government is carrying out a brutal response to the terrorist acts of Hamas, with more than 10,000 Palestinians dead already...we don't know how many of those are Hamas fighters or supporters, but a large portion is likely not to be. Many are children, half of all dead estimated to be under 18. Who is thinking that there needs to be a protest in support of killing more Palestinians, given that's already underway?
However, in contrast to the general American populace, and the government's policy, a majority of younger Americans see the situation less about the existential rights of Jews to live in peace in Israel and more about the apartheid treatment of Palestinians by the current generation of Israelis in power. They have opposed the US government's ongoing support of this right-wing Israeli government, and now oppose the overwhelming force being used. Indeed, Israel has been fractured along these lines as well. Thus, Pro-Palestinian protests in countries in which protests are allowed.... Many in those protests simply want humanitarian concerns to be addressed without further bloodshed, others are more virulently opposed to right-wing Israeli policies and even some find justification of extreme actions against the 'oppressor'. Young, hot-headed, but not without valid concerns.
And then we have our MAGA House which wants to tie funding for Israel (which they say they support strongly) with defunding the IRS, leading to increases in the deficit as fewer hyper wealthy people can be audited...and oh yeah, that typical taxpayers have a harder time getting answers from fewer IRS customer service reps. No new technology upgrades. Brilliant.
So, you want less complexity?
Just giving you a hard time.....I think we are trying to figure out why the general population is silent in protest against Hamas/Palestine.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:38 amSure. And? Is the goal to point out a misspelling out of the many I make and ignore the content or attempt to critique my intellect which would be akin to Cradle calling people dumb if you get what I’m saying.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:50 amtheirFarfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:15 amHere’s the anti Hamas protest.youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 am
I think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?
https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-pro ... -authority
But more effective than fat old people arguing the sky isn’t blue while looking up because they’re god told them it was a different color.