Tagged you because of the number of Jews involved in this protest. Again, a strange thing. It's similar to second (or more) generation Mexicans agreeing with Trump that the borders need to be stronger to keep out the Mexican immigrants, etc. "They're not sending over their best, they're sending their rapists, murders, etc." A strange thing...MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:06 am I'm headed down there today... the comments are truly ridiculous.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Caddy Day
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:41 amTagged you because of the number of Jews involved in this protest. Again, a strange thing. It's similar to second (or more) generation Mexicans agreeing with Trump that the borders need to be stronger to keep out the Mexican immigrants, etc. "They're not sending over their best, they're sending their rapists, murders, etc." A strange thing...MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:06 am I'm headed down there today... the comments are truly ridiculous.
Strange? Not to me as I have known so many Jews over the years who think the same way. The quest for justice, for making this a better world, to do mitzvah (a good deed) every day, to serve an even hand to all ~ this is what a great many Jews live for. Had you been Jewish or grew up with so many like I did, you would know this is a part of their character. Contrary to what the news media tells you, the real victims have been the Palestinians all along. Thus, no surprise that so many stand up for the real victims of all this trouble in Israel.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.
Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Actually, I understand the dilemma many young progressive Jews feel about the conflict. Just was driving back from DC listening to NPR, roundtable of Jewish folks with various perspectives, including voices highly sympathetic to the Palestinians.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:41 amTagged you because of the number of Jews involved in this protest. Again, a strange thing. It's similar to second (or more) generation Mexicans agreeing with Trump that the borders need to be stronger to keep out the Mexican immigrants, etc. "They're not sending over their best, they're sending their rapists, murders, etc." A strange thing...MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:06 am I'm headed down there today... the comments are truly ridiculous.
I'd call it empathy for the oppressed. Coming from a very good place.
And of course other voices which had a greater emphasis on security for Jews and how traumatic these events have been to have been so mercilessly and indiscriminately attacked for simply being there (didn't matter whether Jewish or Arab or Thai, much less the large # of Jews active in the peace and anti-occupation movement who were slaughtered...and children...merely to create terror).
What I gleaned is that there's a big difference with being angry at Israel's government and its policies of "occupation" and actually being anti-Jewish state.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
I was with you until you said "character", no, this is the teaching. And you really lose me in your last two sentences.Brooklyn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:48 amMatnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:41 amTagged you because of the number of Jews involved in this protest. Again, a strange thing. It's similar to second (or more) generation Mexicans agreeing with Trump that the borders need to be stronger to keep out the Mexican immigrants, etc. "They're not sending over their best, they're sending their rapists, murders, etc." A strange thing...MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:06 am I'm headed down there today... the comments are truly ridiculous.
Strange? Not to me as I have known so many Jews over the years who think the same way. The quest for justice, for making this a better world, to do mitzvah (a good deed) every day, to serve an even hand to all ~ this is what a great many Jews live for. Had you been Jewish or grew up with so many like I did, you would know this is a part of their character. Contrary to what the news media tells you, the real victims have been the Palestinians all along. Thus, no surprise that so many stand up for the real victims of all this trouble in Israel.
Way too absolutist.
Israeli professor today on NPR (lost his son and daughter-in-law in kibbutz near Gaza in the attack, grandson shielded by mother was wounded, not dead.) talked about the difference between Hamas and Palestinians...he's sent his children to Arab-Israeli schools, teaches Arab students, his doctor is Arab, etc...BUT, what Hamas did was a "pogrom"...the purposeful slaughter of civilians, not a military action, to create terror and simply because they could. With the declared purpose of eradication of all Jews. He talked about the overwhelming number of Muslims as peace-loving, that Islam is a religion of peace...but there are strains in the religion, like other religions, that have their roots in hate...Much more, but you get the point.
Re: Israel and Zionism
As the Bible teaches, justice must first exist so that order can prevail. Without justice, there simply is no order.
~ Isaiah 59:8
Had there been any justice in Israel, Hamas would not have been created in 1987. That explains it all.
~ Isaiah 59:8
Had there been any justice in Israel, Hamas would not have been created in 1987. That explains it all.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.
Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Re: Israel and Zionism
said a different way, what happened last week is awful but... the israeli jews brought it upon themselves. hamas is just righting a wrong. b'lyn, youre a large piece of sh1t.
Re: Israel and Zionism
yes. especially about the difference between the palestinians and hamas. hamas is commited to erasing israel from the map. not for anyhting they did. for who they are: jews. and, before anyone gets too happy. they also hate the west and americans. hamas is unquestionably rooted in hate, not freakin' justice.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:44 pm Israeli professor today on NPR (lost his son and daughter-in-law in kibbutz near Gaza in the attack, grandson shielded by mother was wounded, not dead.) talked about the difference between Hamas and Palestinians...he's sent his children to Arab-Israeli schools, teaches Arab students, his doctor is Arab, etc...BUT, what Hamas did was a "pogrom"...the purposeful slaughter of civilians, not a military action, to create terror and simply because they could. With the declared purpose of eradication of all Jews. He talked about the overwhelming number of Muslims as peace-loving, that Islam is a religion of peace...but there are strains in the religion, like other religions, that have their roots in hate...Much more, but you get the point.
Re: Israel and Zionism
... so kill hamas all you want. Doesn't mean Palestinians as collateral damage is acceptable.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Yes and yes. What you just wrote is nuanced, balanced. And many, many Jews feel the same. This includes staunch Zionists. The central issue is, Does Israel have the right to exist? And, for some, for many, the answer is either literally no or ostensibly no. (If the Jews can't defend themselves, protect themselves, there won't be an Israel. That translates to an ostensibly no.) For many Jews, especially college-aged Jews, far-left Jews, West Coast Jews, etc., there is little balance, little nuance. Just, Free Palestine. No recognition for what it means for Israel to remove all fences, all walls.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:37 pm I'd call it empathy for the oppressed. Coming from a very good place... What I gleaned is that there's a big difference with being angry at Israel's government and its policies of "occupation" and actually being anti-Jewish state.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
I have no doubt that's the case for some, including sizable #'s of young progressives...because of the Palestinian issue.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:06 pmYes and yes. What you just wrote is nuanced, balanced. And many, many Jews feel the same. This includes staunch Zionists. The central issue is, Does Israel have the right to exist? And, for some, for many, the answer is either literally no or ostensibly no. (If the Jews can't defend themselves, protect themselves, there won't be an Israel. That translates to an ostensibly no.) For many Jews, especially college-aged Jews, far-left Jews, West Coast Jews, etc., there is little balance, little nuance. Just, Free Palestine. No recognition for what it means for Israel to remove all fences, all walls.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:37 pm I'd call it empathy for the oppressed. Coming from a very good place... What I gleaned is that there's a big difference with being angry at Israel's government and its policies of "occupation" and actually being anti-Jewish state.
But those who know people with friends or family in Israel typically have a more nuanced perspective..."we" need Israel, but we also need justice for
Palestinians in order to have a sustainable peace.
I have other Jewish friends who say there will never be peace with the Palestinians, no hope, and F-them.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
I wonder if Biden had to dodge sniper fire ala HRC? The next question would be were those snipers theirs or ours?
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Correct me If I'm wrong but didn't the Palestinians vote for Hamas to lead them? You thought voting Republican was problematic. It sounds like to me you get the leadership you vote for. It could be at this point in time that Palestinians are having buyers remorse.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:31 pmof course, would that it were so easy, right.
150,000 Hamas operatives living within and ruling by force over 2.2 million.
Last edited by cradleandshoot on Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
They're being short-sighted. some things take time. some things take a lot of time. Peace between the Jews and Palestinians actually wouldn't take so much time. The situation isn't *so* different than Israel and their Arab neighbors. It's Hamas' role within their relationship that makes the solution trickier, more prolonged.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:30 pm I have other Jewish friends who say there will never be peace with the Palestinians, no hope, and F-them.
Caddy Day
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Yes. Hamas repeatedly firing rockets from residential areas into Tel Aviv, Israelis are intercepting the rockets but can't do it forever and... What are they supposed to do? This situation is far from simple. Israel isn't perfect but, for heaven's sake, give them some credit.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:31 pmof course, would that it were so easy, right.150,000 Hamas operatives living within and ruling by force over 2.2 million.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Except for that prickly little issue where some of the folks involved in the discussion would like to see the Jews go away. Hard to have a discussion about a two state nation when one side refuses the other sides right to exist. What does the UN say? They are the folks who gave the Jews their own nation.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:38 pmThey're being short-sighted. some things take time. some things take a lot of time. Peace between the Jews and Palestinians actually wouldn't take so much time. The situation isn't *so* different than Israel and their Arab neighbors. It's Hamas' role within their relationship that makes the solution trickier, more prolonged.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:30 pm I have other Jewish friends who say there will never be peace with the Palestinians, no hope, and F-them.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
I just read the Biden 3 ring circus blew the coverage of our special ops people in Israel. Who woulda thunk a photo op with them without blurring out their faces was industrial strength stupid?
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Re: Israel and Zionism
The elections you reference were in 2006. There has not been a new election since then because HAMAS doesn't want one.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:38 pmCorrect me If I'm wrong but didn't the Palestinians vote for Hamas to lead them? You thought voting Republican was problematic. It sounds like to me you get the leadership you vote for. It could be at this point in time that Palestinians are having buyers remorse.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:31 pmof course, would that it were so easy, right.
150,000 Hamas operatives living within and ruling by force over 2.2 million.
Draw your own conclusions.
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Re: Israel and Zionism
I already drew my conclusion. The Palestinian people voted for Hamas. That can only mean the Palestinian people were buying what Hamas was selling. What you are telling me is Hamas are a bunch of tyrants running a terrorist operation against Israel. They won't even respect the Palestinian peoples right to vote. What a way to run a railroad.Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:57 pmThe elections you reference were in 2006. There has not been a new election since then because HAMAS doesn't want one.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:38 pmCorrect me If I'm wrong but didn't the Palestinians vote for Hamas to lead them? You thought voting Republican was problematic. It sounds like to me you get the leadership you vote for. It could be at this point in time that Palestinians are having buyers remorse.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:31 pmof course, would that it were so easy, right.
150,000 Hamas operatives living within and ruling by force over 2.2 million.
Draw your own conclusions.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Bob Ross:
Re: Israel and Zionism
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:37 pmActually, I understand the dilemma many young progressive Jews feel about the conflict. Just was driving back from DC listening to NPR, roundtable of Jewish folks with various perspectives, including voices highly sympathetic to the Palestinians.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:41 amTagged you because of the number of Jews involved in this protest. Again, a strange thing. It's similar to second (or more) generation Mexicans agreeing with Trump that the borders need to be stronger to keep out the Mexican immigrants, etc. "They're not sending over their best, they're sending their rapists, murders, etc." A strange thing...MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:06 am I'm headed down there today... the comments are truly ridiculous.
I'd call it empathy for the oppressed. Coming from a very good place.
And of course other voices which had a greater emphasis on security for Jews and how traumatic these events have been to have been so mercilessly and indiscriminately attacked for simply being there (didn't matter whether Jewish or Arab or Thai, much less the large # of Jews active in the peace and anti-occupation movement who were slaughtered...and children...merely to create terror).
What I gleaned is that there's a big difference with being angry at Israel's government and its policies of "occupation" and actually being anti-Jewish state.
+1
STAND AGAINST FASCISM