cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:09 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm
I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!
pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.
Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.
and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.
But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???
That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.
Did I quote or parrot Friedman???
Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???
Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.
I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.
sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.
That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.
The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.
An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.
... It does look to me that the game plan is different and will likely surprise. That however is not guaranteed. Even if it does surprise, there is no guarantee that the results will be better than in the past. That is the metric that will be used to judge success or failure. A lot more dead Palestinians and a totally dead Hamas will not be viewed by the world as a good result. The Israelis on the other hand will view this as a good result. This would be a terrible result for the US and Biden and ultimately the Israelis as well.
Frankly I am getting f*cking tired of hearing Israeli representatives and apologists lecturing the world on how bad Hamas is, that is already obvious to the world, with no mention of the Palestinians, other than an off hand "we will of course try to limit co-lateral damage, but this is a war zone". Coupled with historical results this really makes it sound like their position is, Palestinian loses will be whatever they are and we really don't care. The clowns the Israelis are running out on TV are not helping the Israeli position. They should just shut the F up.
The world's position is "don't tell us, show us." The world is not going to buy the rhetoric "a thousand Jewish babies were beheaded" and "50,000 dead Palestinians were co-lateral damage" as an excuse for the dead Palestinians! To me, it really sounds like the Israeli reps are trying to prepare the world for this result. I am sure a lot of other people are hearing the same thing.
In good news, the Israeli war cabinet has been formed and the fascist cabinet members Gvir and Smotrich have been "demoted". Whatever demoted means. Hopefully it means they are fired.