Conservative Ideology: A Big Lie

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a fan
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:44 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:27 pm Multinationals ENTIRE motivation is growth. That's it. Everything else is in third place, at best. Taxes are irrelevant motivators for them.
That is my entire argument and for growth to take place. They want what is in the best interest for them, which is what?....Exactly, a place for no/low cost growth. Your latter comment seems to contradict your prior arguments over the years...remember you praised AOC for kicking out Amazon because of the tax breaks NYC had on the table and were furious when Va. did the same for Amazon headquarters. You said....Taxes are irrelevant motivators for them, how so, if it is often the carrot that lures them to close the deal?
Because every State offers these stupid breaks. And CEO's are stupid, and don't think long term, so they let a dumb thing like taxes effect their long term choices (think about how serious transportation costs are these days, where a few miles extra travel for a place like Amazon will OVERWHELM any tax savings.

But they're not SO stupid that they won't take free money offered by these stupid Governors.

Our current distillery location? My brother selected a site that's less than a mile from our distributor. Result? Our shipping is free to them, they send a truck to pick up our pallets after they've emptied the day's cargo at restaurants and liquor stores.

This one decision saves us over $200K per year, and we're a dinky company.
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:44 pm Maybe we are talking past one another again....we seem to be awfully close.
Oh, I agree that we're close.
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HooDat
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:27 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans?
Because without it, they're F'ed. And I want rural America to survive.

The ONLY reason they're not totally shut down? Trillions in Federal Borrowing, pumped through these rural States.

Do you think, for example, West Virginia could possibly afford to combat meth addiction on their own? Or East Kentucky and the massive flooding they're dealing with, yet agaIn?

I've said it a million times: THIS is why guys like Mitch McConnell outspend the Democrats by TRILLIONS, and it's not even a close call.
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.
Oh, I remember. Do you remember WHY everyone laughed at them? The only way to bring manufacturing back, is to legislate. And Trump and the Republicans, to the shock of no one, didn't lift a single finger to do that. Tax breaks don't work....obviously.
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.
Heck, just ONE line item in Biden's infrastructure bill helped rural America in a way that there's NO WAY the free market would EVER do.....
The big picture issue the Pareto principal says the biggest cities in the US will continue to suck up all the corporate activity and jobs leaving more and more of the fly-over states and second tier cities empty. Infrastructure doesn't solve their problems, but it is a core need for those areas and certainly helps set them up for the rest of what they need: investment and a reason for businesses to do so there. Where Trump's policies could have helped these smaller communities is with tariffs. He talked a big game, but didn't seem to follow through in the details. The hard part is "cutting a deal" that ensures that businesses that invested in domestic production in response to tariffs did so in smaller towns and cities rather than the suburbs of the major cities. That is where tax breaks or other incentives could come into play - along with significant government investment (in infrastructure). Like I said, in classic Trump style he blustered a lot, said he cut deals and then those companies moved their production from Asia to Mexico - that's not a lot of help for the workers in Evansville, IL or Springfield, MO.

Let's be clear tariffs represent a lot of trade-offs (consumer vs manufacturer, etc). But they are a way to shift production back to the US.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:22 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:16 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans? Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.

Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.

to be clear....not a fight or a scoreboard post.
mmmm, big generalization here, but "corporate types" typically want low cost production...and if that means offshoring to get cheap labor, so be it. They certainly don't actually care about "rural America" or "urban America", never have, never will. They care about their bottom line growth, not employing Americans (if a robot is cheaper, employ the robot). They also never cared much about pollution, other than what government controls were enforced. Nor any other exogenous costs.

Their US employees these days, especially younger employees, and their younger, US consumers, are more ideological, so executives have grown increasingly conscious of more than low cost production. But only because that's good for the bottom line.

As to MAGA, were there any actual policies that worked for rural economies? Nope...
Never said they cared about rural america...you did, for some reason. My point was, as corporate types expand their portfolios....it bleeds into rural/urban america, full stop...and guess who has to build these places, work in these places, service these places, support these places, and so on.....see the forest MD, talk about generalizations. Who is the CEO and President of Walmart....exactly, you think when they build a big box store in rural america, it means this zip code is open for business....and here comes more rural business. But hey...why build a walmart in america when you can build it overseas or use AI :roll: ;)

I wonder what presidential policy is needed for walmart to build its stores in podunk city, usa. :lol:
nope, you responded to a fan's comment about Republicans and rural America.
You respond with this Republican "corporate" argument, which unfortunately, is specious.

Walmart?
There's really been no greater force of destruction in small town America than Walmart.

They destroyed small town retail merchants, and they sourced nearly entirely from overseas, destroying American suppliers along the way.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

HooDat wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:50 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:27 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans?
Because without it, they're F'ed. And I want rural America to survive.

The ONLY reason they're not totally shut down? Trillions in Federal Borrowing, pumped through these rural States.

Do you think, for example, West Virginia could possibly afford to combat meth addiction on their own? Or East Kentucky and the massive flooding they're dealing with, yet agaIn?

I've said it a million times: THIS is why guys like Mitch McConnell outspend the Democrats by TRILLIONS, and it's not even a close call.
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.
Oh, I remember. Do you remember WHY everyone laughed at them? The only way to bring manufacturing back, is to legislate. And Trump and the Republicans, to the shock of no one, didn't lift a single finger to do that. Tax breaks don't work....obviously.
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.
Heck, just ONE line item in Biden's infrastructure bill helped rural America in a way that there's NO WAY the free market would EVER do.....
The big picture issue the Pareto principal says the biggest cities in the US will continue to suck up all the corporate activity and jobs leaving more and more of the fly-over states and second tier cities empty. Infrastructure doesn't solve their problems, but it is a core need for those areas and certainly helps set them up for the rest of what they need: investment and a reason for businesses to do so there. Where Trump's policies could have helped these smaller communities is with tariffs. He talked a big game, but didn't seem to follow through in the details. The hard part is "cutting a deal" that ensures that businesses that invested in domestic production in response to tariffs did so in smaller towns and cities rather than the suburbs of the major cities. That is where tax breaks or other incentives could come into play - along with significant government investment (in infrastructure). Like I said, in classic Trump style he blustered a lot, said he cut deals and then those companies moved their production from Asia to Mexico - that's not a lot of help for the workers in Evansville, IL or Springfield, MO.

Let's be clear tariffs represent a lot of trade-offs (consumer vs manufacturer, etc). But they are a way to shift production back to the US.
Frankly, tariffs are about the stupidest way to try to incentivize businesses to move operations to the US...they work miserably and create all sorts of unintended outcomes in response. Just dumb...and most of us understood that was the case when Trump was blustering away and the rubes were buying his con.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:16 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans? Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.

Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.

to be clear....not a fight or a scoreboard post.
mmmm, big generalization here, but "corporate types" typically want low cost production...and if that means offshoring to get cheap labor, so be it. They certainly don't actually care about "rural America" or "urban America", never have, never will. They care about their bottom line growth, not employing Americans (if a robot is cheaper, employ the robot). They also never cared much about pollution, other than what government controls were enforced. Nor any other exogenous costs.

Their US employees these days, especially younger employees, and their younger, US consumers, are more ideological, so executives have grown increasingly conscious of more than low cost production. But only because that's good for the bottom line.

As to MAGA, were there any actual policies that worked for rural economies? Nope...
It’s not really even a correct generalization. Corporate types want optimization of operations is more accurate. For periods that has been deemed to be Labor but not always and something I think will lead to Chinas downfall economically ultimately (too biased/skewed towards labor as the sole/dominant means of production and also not understanding humans can only provide linear output. In these roles, they can’t break the curve in that they can I know work so many hours in a day).
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Re: Conservative Ideology

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Glenn Kirschner@glennkirschner2

You know what’s despicable? Lindsey Graham refusing to testify to a Georgia grand jury about Trump’s crimes while simultaneously bleating about how DOJ must be transparent & unseal the search warrant affidavit so we can see all the evidence of Trump’s crimes.

7:23 AM · Aug 18, 2022 from Leesburg, VA·Twitter for iPhone
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Re: Conservative Ideology

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CU88 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:06 am Glenn Kirschner@glennkirschner2

You know what’s despicable? Lindsey Graham refusing to testify to a Georgia grand jury about Trump’s crimes while simultaneously bleating about how DOJ must be transparent & unseal the search warrant affidavit so we can see all the evidence of Trump’s crimes.

7:23 AM · Aug 18, 2022 from Leesburg, VA·Twitter for iPhone
So hypocrisy from politicians comes as a surprise to you??? ;)
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:15 am
CU88 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:06 am Glenn Kirschner@glennkirschner2

You know what’s despicable? Lindsey Graham refusing to testify to a Georgia grand jury about Trump’s crimes while simultaneously bleating about how DOJ must be transparent & unseal the search warrant affidavit so we can see all the evidence of Trump’s crimes.

7:23 AM · Aug 18, 2022 from Leesburg, VA·Twitter for iPhone
So hypocrisy from politicians comes as a surprise to you??? ;)
I think he's talking about something a little more serious than hypocrisy. Think about it.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by cradleandshoot »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:25 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:15 am
CU88 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:06 am Glenn Kirschner@glennkirschner2

You know what’s despicable? Lindsey Graham refusing to testify to a Georgia grand jury about Trump’s crimes while simultaneously bleating about how DOJ must be transparent & unseal the search warrant affidavit so we can see all the evidence of Trump’s crimes.

7:23 AM · Aug 18, 2022 from Leesburg, VA·Twitter for iPhone
So hypocrisy from politicians comes as a surprise to you??? ;)
I think he's talking about something a little more serious than hypocrisy. Think about it.
What could be more serious than politicians raising money for themselves?
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:49 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:16 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans? Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.

Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.

to be clear....not a fight or a scoreboard post.
mmmm, big generalization here, but "corporate types" typically want low cost production...and if that means offshoring to get cheap labor, so be it. They certainly don't actually care about "rural America" or "urban America", never have, never will. They care about their bottom line growth, not employing Americans (if a robot is cheaper, employ the robot). They also never cared much about pollution, other than what government controls were enforced. Nor any other exogenous costs.

Their US employees these days, especially younger employees, and their younger, US consumers, are more ideological, so executives have grown increasingly conscious of more than low cost production. But only because that's good for the bottom line.

As to MAGA, were there any actual policies that worked for rural economies? Nope...
It’s not really even a correct generalization. Corporate types want optimization of operations is more accurate. For periods that has been deemed to be Labor but not always and something I think will lead to Chinas downfall economically ultimately (too biased/skewed towards labor as the sole/dominant means of production and also not understanding humans can only provide linear output. In these roles, they can’t break the curve in that they can I know work so many hours in a day).
Sound point.
As I said, if a robot is cheaper, the incentive is to opt for the robot.

Whatever the cost/quality drivers are, the incentive is to optimize for them.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:38 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:25 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:15 am
CU88 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:06 am Glenn Kirschner@glennkirschner2

You know what’s despicable? Lindsey Graham refusing to testify to a Georgia grand jury about Trump’s crimes while simultaneously bleating about how DOJ must be transparent & unseal the search warrant affidavit so we can see all the evidence of Trump’s crimes.

7:23 AM · Aug 18, 2022 from Leesburg, VA·Twitter for iPhone
So hypocrisy from politicians comes as a surprise to you??? ;)
I think he's talking about something a little more serious than hypocrisy. Think about it.
What could be more serious than politicians raising money for themselves?
which politician? Graham?

yes, there are things much more serious than political fund raising.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:29 pm Frankly, tariffs are about the stupidest way to try to incentivize businesses to move operations to the US...they work miserably and create all sorts of unintended outcomes in response. Just dumb...and most of us understood that was the case when Trump was blustering away and the rubes were buying his con.
"Stupidest"? Oh, I am sure there are plenty of far more stupid ways to go about generating more local production. Generally speaking every econ class will tell you that tariffs destroy value - but don't get me started on economists... the smartest thing I have heard an economist say is "in the long run, we're all dead" - which of course is an indictment of their own field of study....

Yes, lots of potential unintended consequences. But just because YOU don't like the consequences doesn't mean they are dumb. The argument that tariffs are interfering in free capitalism is specious. We already interfere in free capitalism everyday - it is just that 200 years of imperialism based economic theory has favored capital over labor - it is so ingrained in our economic system we don't even recognize the (as afan would point out) socialism embedded in our support for the export of labor to the cheapest source and the import of commodities from the cheapest source. Of course "cheap" is all based on the amount of money spent on them - not the full cost. When the labor pool of a developing country lives in conditions that would make slave-holders of 200 years ago blush, while the heads of state live like kings ... what is the true cost of that labor? When a developing country allows environmental destruction to be left in the wake of silica mining for solar panels, again while the heads of state buy homes in Monaco and US developers get rich - what is the true cost of that silica?

So yes, tariffs shift the balance of influence away from consumption and toward production. It means all sorts of things become more expensive. But does it mean our citizens' quality of life gets better or worse? We have to stop measuring everything in terms of increasing volume of consumption - that is ultimately a losing game for humanity.

Another point worth considering is how big a deterrent tariffs really will pose to foreign producers selling their goods into the US. The US is, and will be for some time, the biggest consumer market in the world - other countries WILL get their goods into our market, they just won't be able to take advantage of different regulatory costs when doing so. I, for one, would be glad to see that. Of course some countries will retaliate. The question is which ones, will they retaliate across product lines, and what impact will that have on US producers' ability to access foreign markets. Complex systems are complex!

Of course Trump was blustering, that is all he does. But sometimes he will bluster about smart things he heard someone else say. I am not sure his tariff bluster was smart or stupid. I don't think anybody could know because there was not enough meat on the bones to actually evaluate it. But on that topic MD - I gotta tell you the comment about "Just dumb...and most of us understood that was the case" comes across as more than a little arrogant. My response is - most of "you" understood exactly what CNN or Fox and all the right and virtuous people in polite society told you to understand. There was never enough detail provided to even begin to understand a) what Trump was actually proposing be done or b) how it would be implemented. Because the clown that Trump is, he had no idea himself :roll:

I am not saying Trump's "tariffs" would have accomplished anything. I never even talked about Trump in my comments, I talked about tariffs in general. This tendency for everyone to want to bring everything back to Trump is counterproductive. So many people are letting him live rent-free in their heads and he feeds of that. I am not a Trump fan - but I am a realist. From the time he announced his candidacy it was clear that he was tapping into the polarization that is going on across the world as we fall back to what amounts to an imperialist global economy - only this time under the guise of a global corporatist economy. Just like the kings, tsars and queens of old had more in common with each other than with their subjects - the self-anointed elite share more values across national boundaries than they do with their own countrymen and women. More and more, the regular Joe's believe that those that are supposed to be serving them are actually working against them. Responsible people can recognize that and change how they are approaching leadership, or scumbags like Trump will do it instead. So far, I am not feeling good about how that is going to play out.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

That seems like a long way of saying tariffs don’t work, and that they “destroy value”.

But I tend to be long winded too, so we get along… ;)

IMO, what Trump was blustering about was a particularly stupid way to achieve more domestic production and strategic competitiveness.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:56 pm That seems like a long way of saying tariffs don’t work, and that they “destroy value”.

But I tend to be long winded too, so we get along… ;)

IMO, what Trump was blustering about was a particularly stupid way to achieve more domestic production and strategic competitiveness.
:lol:
I'd say it was a long winded way of saying: "tariffs destroy value but might work depending on what you value"
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

HooDat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:44 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:56 pm That seems like a long way of saying tariffs don’t work, and that they “destroy value”.

But I tend to be long winded too, so we get along… ;)

IMO, what Trump was blustering about was a particularly stupid way to achieve more domestic production and strategic competitiveness.
:lol:
I'd say it was a long winded way of saying: "tariffs destroy value but might work depending on what you value"
BTW, you literally wrote:
"Where Trump's policies could have helped these smaller communities is with tariffs."

I didn't bring up Trump's tariffs, you did.

What I don't understand is what you mean by "might work depending on what you value"...when looking at all of the unintended consequences, I don't see the net benefit to the American public, whether in rural, small town, or urban areas. And yeah, that was very predictable, not simply what CNN was saying :roll: ...tariffs have never worked as intended, they always destroy value, and do far more harm than good.

I understand some very limited, very targeted, usage of this tool, but even then tariffs tend to backfire. And yes Trump, Trump's tariffs, so embraced by right wing media, were a blunderbuss of stupidity.

Actually want to accomplish something beneficial for certain sectors, certain regions in the US?
Use other tools. Carefully.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:54 pm Actually want to accomplish something beneficial for certain sectors, certain regions in the US?
Use other tools. Carefully.
I am particularly a fan of Carefully.

I am always suspicious of absolutes, so when you say they always destroy value and do more harm than good, it is in my nature to want to push back.

But here's the deal on tariffs - when globalism fulfills its utopian promise, the standard of living in every country will be the same. At that point the benefit of cheap labor goes away and imports and exports will be driven by differences in regional expertise. In that world the only reason for tariffs would be to protect people who are worse at making something from someone who is better - so they only make sense in the context of strategic defense (every country is going to want people who know how to make weapons for example). The tariffs I am talking about are tariffs designed to counter people in power profiting off of the poverty of their citizens. This is the case for targeted tariffs used to balance the scales around differences in regulatory and employment realities of different countries. Those in power in the West don't want tariffs even like these because they are participating in the spoils of the system.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:54 pm I don't understand is what you mean by "might work depending on what you value"
- the explanation is more philosophy than economics. Let's just say that if we measure everything by dollars and volume of consumption, I think we are missing the boat. I am not saying I have a better way to do it, just that our way of even thinking about these things is pretty shallow and short-term in nature.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:54 pm I didn't bring up Trump's tariffs, you did.
:lol: :lol: You're right. But, you did leave out "He talked a big game, but didn't seem to follow through in the details." I was trying to differentiate between a potentially real and strategic tariff policy and whatever bluster Trump was spewing.

But I was absolutely wrong when I said "I never even talked about Trump" because of course I did. :oops:
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by dislaxxic »

Who remembers at whose feet Old Soviet USED to worship?

Ex-CIA Director Says Today’s GOP Is Most Dangerous Political Force He’s Ever Seen

..
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by cradleandshoot »

dislaxxic wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:34 pm Who remembers at whose feet Old Soviet USED to worship?

Ex-CIA Director Says Today’s GOP Is Most Dangerous Political Force He’s Ever Seen

..
So you can't make a point without insulting OS in the process. Thank you Dis for proving my point about the hate filled anger and rage displayed towards a decorated and dedicated naval officer who gave more to his country than a whiney pipsqueak like you ever even thought about giving. You should be ashamed of yourself but showing respect towards OS even when you disagree with him ain't in your wheelhouse is it??? No need to worry Dis, you have plenty of company on this forum when it comes to angry, disrespectful and intolerant butt wipes. :roll:
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Brooklyn »

dislaxxic wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:34 pm Who remembers at whose feet Old Soviet USED to worship?

Ex-CIA Director Says Today’s GOP Is Most Dangerous Political Force He’s Ever Seen

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this is what the Repukeblicons are all about:


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The party of "principles", "morality", "family values" - :lol:
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:41 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:29 pm Frankly, tariffs are about the stupidest way to try to incentivize businesses to move operations to the US...they work miserably and create all sorts of unintended outcomes in response. Just dumb...and most of us understood that was the case when Trump was blustering away and the rubes were buying his con.
"Stupidest"? Oh, I am sure there are plenty of far more stupid ways to go about generating more local production. Generally speaking every econ class will tell you that tariffs destroy value - but don't get me started on economists... the smartest thing I have heard an economist say is "in the long run, we're all dead" - which of course is an indictment of their own field of study....

Yes, lots of potential unintended consequences. But just because YOU don't like the consequences doesn't mean they are dumb. The argument that tariffs are interfering in free capitalism is specious. We already interfere in free capitalism everyday - it is just that 200 years of imperialism based economic theory has favored capital over labor - it is so ingrained in our economic system we don't even recognize the (as afan would point out) socialism embedded in our support for the export of labor to the cheapest source and the import of commodities from the cheapest source. Of course "cheap" is all based on the amount of money spent on them - not the full cost. When the labor pool of a developing country lives in conditions that would make slave-holders of 200 years ago blush, while the heads of state live like kings ... what is the true cost of that labor? When a developing country allows environmental destruction to be left in the wake of silica mining for solar panels, again while the heads of state buy homes in Monaco and US developers get rich - what is the true cost of that silica?

So yes, tariffs shift the balance of influence away from consumption and toward production. It means all sorts of things become more expensive. But does it mean our citizens' quality of life gets better or worse? We have to stop measuring everything in terms of increasing volume of consumption - that is ultimately a losing game for humanity.

Another point worth considering is how big a deterrent tariffs really will pose to foreign producers selling their goods into the US. The US is, and will be for some time, the biggest consumer market in the world - other countries WILL get their goods into our market, they just won't be able to take advantage of different regulatory costs when doing so. I, for one, would be glad to see that. Of course some countries will retaliate. The question is which ones, will they retaliate across product lines, and what impact will that have on US producers' ability to access foreign markets. Complex systems are complex!

Of course Trump was blustering, that is all he does. But sometimes he will bluster about smart things he heard someone else say. I am not sure his tariff bluster was smart or stupid. I don't think anybody could know because there was not enough meat on the bones to actually evaluate it. But on that topic MD - I gotta tell you the comment about "Just dumb...and most of us understood that was the case" comes across as more than a little arrogant. My response is - most of "you" understood exactly what CNN or Fox and all the right and virtuous people in polite society told you to understand. There was never enough detail provided to even begin to understand a) what Trump was actually proposing be done or b) how it would be implemented. Because the clown that Trump is, he had no idea himself :roll:

I am not saying Trump's "tariffs" would have accomplished anything. I never even talked about Trump in my comments, I talked about tariffs in general. This tendency for everyone to want to bring everything back to Trump is counterproductive. So many people are letting him live rent-free in their heads and he feeds of that. I am not a Trump fan - but I am a realist. From the time he announced his candidacy it was clear that he was tapping into the polarization that is going on across the world as we fall back to what amounts to an imperialist global economy - only this time under the guise of a global corporatist economy. Just like the kings, tsars and queens of old had more in common with each other than with their subjects - the self-anointed elite share more values across national boundaries than they do with their own countrymen and women. More and more, the regular Joe's believe that those that are supposed to be serving them are actually working against them. Responsible people can recognize that and change how they are approaching leadership, or scumbags like Trump will do it instead. So far, I am not feeling good about how that is going to play out.
Economics got blessed as a hard science in the 70s due to a seminal piece by Milton Friedman but it’s a social science, those just don’t get as much love (or money) in academia so they pushed it towards hard sciences for their own personal benefit as a institution (the profession of teaching economics) just like they’d teach in Political Economics. Reality is it’s a very elegant way of describing the world in terms of how humans act/behave and allocate resources but for projecting and forecasting it’s marginally better than local meteorologists. Valuable field but misunderstood largely.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
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