Conservative Ideology: A Big Lie

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PizzaSnake
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by PizzaSnake »

HooDat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:43 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:55 pm But the point is taken and why I’m fine with politicians and regulatory agencies doing less. Every action taken implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) favors one class over another and it’s rarely discussed in terms of “do we want this tradeoff”? but rather only don’t you care about the class I’m supporting????
this is exactly where our government (and really most institutions) fall short. Every single decision has trade-off. Systems are complex. Actions have direct and indirect consequences.
lepidopterarium
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Brooklyn
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Brooklyn »

Oh you didn't know? Racial injustices and discrimination against white men causes them to turn to porn:


https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... rginalized



So now you know!


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Astonishing story here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... strickler/

"A team of computer experts directed by lawyers allied with President Donald Trump copied sensitive data from election systems in Georgia as part of a secretive, multistate effort to access voting equipment that was broader, more organized and more successful than previously reported, according to emails and other records obtained by The Washington Post.

As they worked to overturn Trump’s 2020 election defeat, the lawyers asked a forensic data firm to access county election systems in at least three battleground states, according to the documents and interviews. The firm charged an upfront retainer fee for each job, which in one case was $26,000.

Attorney Sidney Powell sent the team to Michigan to copy a rural county’s election data and later helped arrange for them to do the same in the Detroit area, according to the records. A Trump campaign attorney engaged the team to travel to Nevada. And the day after the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol the team was in southern Georgia, copying data from a Dominion voting system in rural Coffee County.

The emails and other records were collected through a subpoena issued to the forensics firm, Atlanta-based SullivanStrickler, by plaintiffs in a long-running lawsuit in federal court over the security of Georgia’s voting systems. The documents provide the first confirmation that data from Georgia’s election system was copied. Indications of a breach there were first raised by plaintiffs in the case in February, and state officials have said they are investigating.

“The breach is way beyond what we thought,” said David D. Cross, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, who include voting-security activists and Georgia voters. “The scope of it is mind-blowing.”

A drumbeat of revelations about alleged security breaches in local elections offices has grown louder during the nearly two years since the 2020 election. There is growing concern among experts that officials sympathetic to Trump’s claims of vote-rigging could undermine election security in the name of protecting it.

The federal government classifies voting systems as “critical infrastructure,” important to national security, and access to their software and other components is tightly regulated. In several instances since 2020, officials have taken machines out of service after their chains of custody were disrupted.

State authorities have opened criminal investigations into alleged improper breaches of equipment in Michigan, a case that involves several people who appear in the new records. In Mesa County, Colo., a local elections official, Republican Tina Peters, was indicted on felony charges including conspiracy to commit criminal impersonation and attempting to influence a public servant.

In two counties, SullivanStrickler’s examinations were permitted by courts, though many details surrounding those efforts have not been public. The records show how Powell’s group discussed, exchanged and paid for elections-system data. The plaintiffs intend to bring them to the attention of the judge in the case and provide them to the FBI as well as state and local elections authorities in Georgia, Cross told The Post.

Emails reviewed by The Post show that Powell told SullivanStrickler to share data obtained by the firm with other pro-Trump operatives, some of whom continue to openly push conspiracy theories about the 2020 election.

Powell did not respond to messages seeking comment. SullivanStrickler also did not respond.

The documents shed new light on one front in the wide-ranging battle by Trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election. The small team of lawyers and security contractors worked quietly to get their hands on the county-level equipment while others around Trump filed legal challenges, deployed protesters to Washington and lobbied Congress and Vice President Mike Pence to reject Joe Biden’s victory.

Trump and his advisers had quickly seized on voting machines as the sites of supposed fraud, making wild allegations of plots involving the makers of the machines and shadowy foreign forces. Numerous recounts and reviews have confirmed the accuracy of the machines used in 2020. Two manufacturers say their systems are secure and have filed billion-dollar defamation lawsuits that are still pending against prominent sources of the disinformation.

Powell spearheaded the claims with a succession of lawsuits filed in swing states, some with fellow pro-Trump attorney L. Lin Wood Jr. Soon after the election, Powell huddled with other Trump associates for strategy talks around Thanksgiving at Wood’s South Carolina estate.

The following Monday, the documents show, Jim Penrose, a former intelligence official who had been at Wood’s estate, emailed two senior SullivanStrickler executives and others. Penrose helped arrange for people from the firm to travel by private jet to Nevada for what Penrose called an urgent “forensics engagement” and an “opportunity in NV.” The documents do not specify what the work entailed.

Attorney Jesse Binnall, an attorney for the Trump campaign, testifies during a Senate Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee hearing to discuss election security and the 2020 election process on Dec. 16, 2020. (Greg Nash/Greg Nash/The Hill/Pool)
Later that evening Jesse Binnall, an outside counsel to Trump’s campaign who had sued to overturn the result in Nevada, replied to the group asking for a formal agreement that he could sign to authorize the work. Among those copied on Binnall’s email were Powell, retired Army colonel Phil Waldron, who later circulated a PowerPoint presentation proposing the seizure of ballots, and Doug Logan, whose company Cyber Ninjas led a Republican review of the election in Arizona.

Binnall received and signed the engagement agreement, he said in another email. SullivanStrickler’s chief operations officer, Paul Maggio, responded on Dec. 3, 2020, with an invoice for “the 2 days we spent in Las Vegas, NV in support of this matter.”

A person familiar with the matter, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss litigation, said Binnall hired SullivanStrickler to forensically examine election systems in Clark County after Trump’s team won a court order on Nov. 30 granting access to “testing equipment and programs” there. But the firm’s investigators were only allowed to do a cursory examination of machinery, the person said, and Binnall’s efforts to compel access to additional equipment were rejected by the judge in the case. The case was later dismissed.

Also copied on some of the emails about Las Vegas was Brian T. Kennedy, a fellow at the Claremont Institute, a conservative think tank. The day after Maggio invoiced Binnall, Kennedy replied: “I spoke to Jesse and he said the payment is in process.” It was not clear from the records whether Binnall completed the payment. The plaintiffs who obtained them are seeking additional financial records.

Later, after Maggio also copied Binnall on another email about data examinations elsewhere, Penrose emailed him to say: “Please do not communicate about any additional forensics work in AZ to the other legal teams. Keep that in confidential channels with me, Sidney, and Doug only.” It is unclear what work in Arizona he was referring to.

Trump’s campaign and political action committee have paid Binnall’s law firm more than $1.5 million for legal consulting since the election, federal campaign filings show. Binnall is now representing Trump in litigation relating to the Jan. 6 attack. Binnall declined to comment on the consulting arrangement.

Wood told The Post on Monday that he had no involvement in contracting SullivanStrickler. Penrose, Kennedy, Maggio and Logan did not respond to messages seeking comment.

Network data purportedly obtained from Clark County, which includes Las Vegas, were presented at an August 2021 election fraud symposium held by MyPillow chief executive Mike Lindell in Sioux Falls, S.D., as The Post previously reported. That data was captured through a county guest wireless network, according to officials, and contained no sensitive information.

A Lindell ally who spoke at the symposium, Peters, the clerk in Mesa County, was later indicted on charges relating to an alleged breach of the voting system. Sensitive data from the system was leaked online. Peters denies wrongdoing. Authorities have not accused Powell’s group of involvement in the case.

‘I am authorizing payment’

While Maggio was awaiting payment for Nevada, SullivanStrickler’s forensics team was called on again, this time for work in Michigan.

On Dec. 4, 2020, a judge in rural Antrim County surprised local officials by ordering them to allow the plaintiff in an election lawsuit to take images of county vote tabulators. The lawsuit was filed by Matthew DePerno, a lawyer who is now the Trump-backed Republican nominee for Michigan attorney general.

State officials made moves to oppose the inspection, but the Trump allies saw their opening and moved swiftly. The county was already under intense scrutiny after initially reporting inaccurate vote tallies that showed Biden beating Trump in a Republican stronghold. The Post and others previously reported that investigators from SullivanStrickler flew to Antrim on a private jet for the inspection.

The new records show Maggio wrote to Binnall the following evening that his team had made it to Antrim and would begin work the next morning. “It is our assumption that we will be working under our existing agreement and maintain the same daily rate / conditions” as in Nevada, Maggio wrote.

A report based on purported findings from the Antrim examination was promoted publicly by Trump and circulated to Attorney General William P. Barr as evidence of fraud. Independent analysts said the report was badly flawed.

Barr told the congressional committee investigating the Jan 6. attack that Trump had said the report was “absolute proof that the Dominion machines were rigged” and that it meant he was “going to have a second term.” Barr said that the report was “amateurish,” and that Trump would have to be “detached from reality” to believe it.

The new records reveal it was Powell who authorized SullivanStrickler’s investigators to work on Antrim — and arranged to pay for their first day’s work. “I am authorizing payment today for Michigan,” Powell wrote to Maggio on Dec. 8, 2020. Maggio replied two days later to say the firm had received a check, adding, “thanks for executing.”

The Michigan judge’s order granting access to the machines had barred the “use, distribution or manipulation of the forensic images and/or other information gleaned from the forensic investigation without further order of this court.”

The new records show that after SullivanStrickler investigators copied the hard drive of an elections server in Antrim on Dec. 6, 2020, Maggio emailed Powell and Penrose, who were not involved in the local lawsuit. Maggio told them the Antrim files would be made available to download from a secure online folder once the firm was paid.

The Antrim data was later publicized during the same Lindell symposium where the Nevada data was shared.

“There’s no real control of this data once it gets copied,” said Kevin Skoglund, an expert retained by plaintiffs in the case. “It’s just loose and out in the world.”

Both Dominion and independent experts have said that, even with the release of copies of election equipment, there are many safeguards in place to prevent attempts to alter results. Accuracy testing ahead an election and post-election audits that include the hand-counting of ballots are among the measures intended to detect any such activity.

Two weeks after SullivanStrickler’s team went to Antrim, they began working for Powell in Wayne County. An expected wide margin of victory for Democrats in the county, home to majority-Black Detroit, had propelled Biden to victory in the state.

Trump’s campaign unsuccessfully sought to challenge Wayne County precinct tallies, and then tried to stop certification of the state’s results. The campaign cited alleged irregularities in absentee-vote counting, largely in Detroit.

On Dec. 21, Maggio sent an invoice described as “the retainer for the Wayne County, Michigan work, starting tomorrow. The expectation is that this will be paid prior to any work commencing,” Maggio wrote.

Powell responded a few minutes later, saying her employee would “transfer money promptly, with the understanding that I and Phil Waldron and Todd and Conan will receive a copy of all data immediately.” Powell’s employee was to send a check via FedEx, according to emails.

The emails are the first public indication that Trump allies sought to obtain Wayne County election data.

Wayne County elections officials did not respond to messages seeking comment Monday.

Dispatched to Coffee County

Allegations that machine data had been accessed in Coffee County, Ga., first surfaced in February this year as part of the long-running lawsuit. In a recording of a March 2021 telephone call filed in court, pro-Trump businessman Scott Hall said he’d arranged for a plane to take people to Coffee County and joined them as they “went in there and imaged every hard drive of every piece of equipment” and scanned ballots. “We basically had the entire elections committee there,” Hall added. “And they said: ‘We give you permission. Go for it.’”

Former local elections official Misty Hampton told The Post earlier this year that she had allowed Hall and other outsiders into her office in the hope that they could identify machine vulnerabilities and show the “election was not done true and correct.” Hampton resigned under pressure last year because she falsified time sheets, according to county officials.

Until now, it was unclear if those involved in the Coffee County effort successfully obtained data from voting machines. Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger’s office said in April that it was investigating the possibility of a breach but had found no evidence it had occurred.

The new records show that on the morning of Jan. 7, 2021, as Washington reeled from the attack on the Capitol, Maggio emailed Powell to say his team was “on our way to Coffee County Georgia to collect what we can from the Election/ Voting machines and systems,” adding later that the job was “going well.”

The data obtained by the investigators included copies of virtually every component of the county voting system, including the central tabulation server and a precinct tabulator, according to a directory of file names that Maggio’s lawyer sent the plaintiffs in the Georgia case.

Gabriel Sterling, Georgia’s interim deputy secretary of state, told The Post: “Rogue election officials will not be tolerated in Georgia. Prior to this latest disclosure, the Georgia Secretary of State’s office and the State Election Board had already looped in appropriate authorities, including criminal law enforcement agencies, to assist in the investigation into the alleged unlawful access in Coffee County. That investigation continues and any wrongdoers should be prosecuted.”

A Jan. 7 retainer agreement sent by SullivanStrickler, covering the first day of work in Coffee County by four employees, said the firm was to be paid $26,000 upfront. Maggio noted to Powell in an email that this was in line with “our existing agreement.”

Maggio told Powell the following day that his team would again share the data it had collected. But more than three months then apparently passed, with no explanation given in the emails. In late April 2021, Penrose asked Maggio to send the data and to bill Stefanie Lambert, an attorney who has represented Powell, for the remainder of the firm’s fee. Once this was agreed, Lambert replied, “Thank you!”

Maggio later emailed again with a password for accessing the data online and said that a physical copy was to be sent overnight by FedEx.

Lambert was identified this month by Michigan’s attorney general as one of nine people under investigation for an alleged scheme to improperly access voting machines in the state’s Roscommon, Barry and Missaukee counties. The alleged breaches involved machines made by Dominion and Election Systems & Software. Also named in the investigation were Logan of Cyber Ninjas; Penrose, the former intelligence official; and DePerno, the lawyer whose Antrim lawsuit secured access to the machines there.

Lambert did not respond to an email seeking comment.

The plaintiffs have accused Raffensperger of failing to adequately examine the allegations, alleging in a court filing that his office tried to “avoid revealing that this extraordinary breach occurred and that a real investigation has not.”

Raffensperger’s lawyers responded in court this month by criticizing the plaintiffs for not revealing the Scott Hall telephone recording sooner. They said his office had conducted a “fruitful” forensic review of the county’s election management system and sought assistance from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

In June 2021, state officials replaced Coffee County’s election management system server, the central computer used to tally election results.

Attorneys for Raffensperger have told the court that the secretary of state’s office took possession of the old server because a former elections official, whom they did not name, changed a password, making it impossible for others to get into the machine. Hampton told The Post she did not change any passwords.

Hampton’s successor said during a deposition for the lawsuit that his understanding was the server and another piece of equipment were replaced out of concern that they may have been compromised. He also said he was troubled to find a business card for Logan of Cyber Ninjas on Hampton’s desk after he arrived in April 2021, and that he reported this to state authorities but did not hear back about it.


Voting machines fill the floor for early voting at State Farm Arena on Oct. 12, 2020, in Atlanta. (Brynn Anderson/AP)
Alex Halderman, a University of Michigan computer scientist who has studied security vulnerabilities in voting machines used in Georgia, is working as an expert for the plaintiffs. He said he feared political actors granted unfettered access to the machines could exploit such vulnerabilities, especially when their access went undetected for more than a year after the election, as it did in Coffee County.

“Where else that we don’t yet know about has this same kind of access been given?” Halderman said. “That’s the real danger.”

In May, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) issued an advisory detailing security flaws it found in Dominion voting systems but emphasizing at the time that it had found no evidence that those flaws had ever been exploited.

CISA, an arm of the Department of Homeland Security, flagged the vulnerabilities to election officials in more than a dozen states that use the machines, and notified them of measures that would aid in detection or prevention of attempts to exploit the vulnerabilities.

Bruce P. Brown, a lawyer who represents the nonprofit Coalition for Good Governance, one of the plaintiffs in the Georgia lawsuit, said the state should institute hand-marked paper ballots immediately to protect the 2022 midterm elections.

“These Georgia counties are not equipped to protect their software from attacks from people bent on disrupting the democratic process,” Brown told The Post."
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by a fan »

HooDat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:43 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:55 pm But the point is taken and why I’m fine with politicians and regulatory agencies doing less. Every action taken implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) favors one class over another and it’s rarely discussed in terms of “do we want this tradeoff”? but rather only don’t you care about the class I’m supporting????
this is exactly where our government (and really most institutions) fall short. Every single decision has trade-off. Systems are complex. Actions have direct and indirect consequences.
The flip side is: there is a trade off to NOT have large, centralized Government.

And that trade off is: most States (as in, more than half) would have unsustainably high taxes if the Federal Government wasn't borrowing money, and giving it away to the States. This is what keeps the lights on in MOST States.

Picture Alaska without this practice. You'd be unable to live there without Federal money.

My standing 10yo+ question for proponents of a small, decentralized government has gone unanswered all these years. Care to take a crack at it?

Put a 10 year old kid in rural Colorado, 200 miles from any major city. Tell me how you employ his parents, give him 1st world health care, and educate this kid to the point where he can enter the workforce without socialism or Federal government handouts.
ardilla secreta
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by ardilla secreta »

Amusing production of Dr Oz pretending to be shopping for crudités at Wegner’s. He’s stunned how much it costs and naturally blames Biden.

https://twitter.com/umichvoter/status/1 ... OGsH9_LQsg
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HooDat
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:55 pm My standing 10yo+ question for proponents of a small, decentralized government has gone unanswered all these years. Care to take a crack at it?

Put a 10 year old kid in rural Colorado, 200 miles from any major city. Tell me how you employ his parents, give him 1st world health care, and educate this kid to the point where he can enter the workforce without socialism or Federal government handouts.
I will start by observing that there is a difference between small, decentralized government and socialism.

You say yourself that the way the Federal Gov is making those handouts is by borrowing. Why is the gov borrowing, other than because it can? To buy your vote with "handouts". We all know it isn't sustainable, but nobody seems to care, they're content to get theirs and let the grand-kids pay for it....

As to the other part of your question regarding the rural family. I am not sure I understand why you pose the question like I (or the government ~ which ideally is composed of all of us) has a requirement to provide for someone's employment. If someone chooses to live 200 miles from any major city, I assume they moved there for a reason, and I would have to further assume that reason includes an understanding of what it takes to have shelter and food. The fact that they have a kid to worry about educating tells me they are pretty good at it, so I am inclined to help them.

Now back to the bit about "without socialism or Federal government handouts". I have never claimed to be some sort of puritan "C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-T". I believe a society owes each other something. But I also believe we owe no more than what another is willing to give relative to their abilities. You want our help, you better be putting the effort in yourself. And by "our" I mean society. I am a big fan of the concept of public school - I happen to think it has lost its way in spite of the better work of a lot of great teachers (I have many family members who are teachers). There are a lot of ways to provide an education these days, from on-line classes, to internet facilitated home-schooling, to "voucher" based (money follows the student) private schools. The technology and resources are there, we need to spend them better. But again, you think I am scared of the word "socialism" and I am not. What I am afraid of is bureaucracy and waste. I am afraid of top down decision making and grand schemes that promise utopia. I think the bigger the organization, the bigger the bureaucracy, the bigger the waste and the bigger the crooks with their hands in my pockets. I also like decisions being made as close the problem as possible.

You didn't ask, but in similar discussions you have brought up the idea of rich state's supporting poor states. Again, we have established that I am not afraid of a little socialism, so in the end I think it is a little like how we think about that farmer 200 miles from nowhere. To the extent we see value in farmland in Arkansas or South Dakota or Vermont or eastern Oregon - we will throw a little socialism their way. We will build roads (makes it easier to buy their food and to get there for a vacation), lay power lines, etc.. Why? Because we like knowing those places exist in our country and that if we want, we can get in our cars and drive there. We like the idea of crazy uncle fred living in a trailer in WVA or on the beach in SW OR. We will also educate their kids because who knows, one of them could grow up to be President. THAT is the American dream. Same goes for the folks in subsidized housing in our urban centers - without the romanticism of rural living.

I think the US psyche is wired to respect the family carving out a piece of wilderness to make their living. Our view of poverty becomes less sympathetic in urban environments for two reasons: 1) we can see it up close and personal, and 2) we project less effort on the part of our urban poor. This links back to my statement about putting in the effort if you want "our" help. It is an unfair and unfortunate bias that I think out country has - but I think it is actual a HUMAN bias.

As for first world healthcare - who gets that!?!? :lol:
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
CU88
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by CU88 »

Whether nuclear secrets should be kept secure has become a partisan issue.
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:55 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:43 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:55 pm But the point is taken and why I’m fine with politicians and regulatory agencies doing less. Every action taken implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) favors one class over another and it’s rarely discussed in terms of “do we want this tradeoff”? but rather only don’t you care about the class I’m supporting????
this is exactly where our government (and really most institutions) fall short. Every single decision has trade-off. Systems are complex. Actions have direct and indirect consequences.
The flip side is: there is a trade off to NOT have large, centralized Government.

And that trade off is: most States (as in, more than half) would have unsustainably high taxes if the Federal Government wasn't borrowing money, and giving it away to the States. This is what keeps the lights on in MOST States.

Picture Alaska without this practice. You'd be unable to live there without Federal money.

My standing 10yo+ question for proponents of a small, decentralized government has gone unanswered all these years. Care to take a crack at it?

Put a 10 year old kid in rural Colorado, 200 miles from any major city. Tell me how you employ his parents, give him 1st world health care, and educate this kid to the point where he can enter the workforce without socialism or Federal government handouts.
Yeah but folks here often don’t listen to what I’m saying on this topic.

A. It’s not binary, all or none, it’s where one lands on the spectrum. I skew towards less under the “do no harm” concept. Ie all subsidies that have gone into housing hasn’t made it more affordable or broadened out homeownership (it’s peaked 1-2x this Millenium in bubbles 300-500bps higher than the early 60s for all the dough, transfers and costs associated with said subsidization. Same thing w Ag.
B. I’m not saying no or cut 97% of govt. I’m saying: 1. More transparency as to desired/expected outcome and outlining all non black swan second order effects that could come from doing such action. Then open cost-benefit analysis discussion.

And then the execution of acts of Congress needs to be vetted and open variance analysis.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by a fan »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:37 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:55 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:43 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:55 pm But the point is taken and why I’m fine with politicians and regulatory agencies doing less. Every action taken implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) favors one class over another and it’s rarely discussed in terms of “do we want this tradeoff”? but rather only don’t you care about the class I’m supporting????
this is exactly where our government (and really most institutions) fall short. Every single decision has trade-off. Systems are complex. Actions have direct and indirect consequences.
The flip side is: there is a trade off to NOT have large, centralized Government.

And that trade off is: most States (as in, more than half) would have unsustainably high taxes if the Federal Government wasn't borrowing money, and giving it away to the States. This is what keeps the lights on in MOST States.

Picture Alaska without this practice. You'd be unable to live there without Federal money.

My standing 10yo+ question for proponents of a small, decentralized government has gone unanswered all these years. Care to take a crack at it?

Put a 10 year old kid in rural Colorado, 200 miles from any major city. Tell me how you employ his parents, give him 1st world health care, and educate this kid to the point where he can enter the workforce without socialism or Federal government handouts.
Yeah but folks here often don’t listen to what I’m saying on this topic.
I do! I COMPLETELY understand that for rational non-partisans the question isn't binary. It's a question of discuss where the line between big and small government should be.

My reaction is to the current leadership at the Republican party swears on a stack of bibles that they hate socialism, big government, and big spending.

They're lying, of course. Which would be fine, except their voters believe this horsehockey, and THIS is why the Republicans no longer govern at the National Level. Been like this for almost 30 years. They're stuck because they can't announce Big Government programs because they told their voters that Government...and the Federal Government in particular, is bad.

It's why these idiots will vote no on a simple, small, overdue Infrastructure Bill. They're just gone, and no longer wish to govern.
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Academy apologizes to Sacheen Littlefeather

Post by DocBarrister »

It took 50 years, but the Academy finally apologized to Sacheen Littlefeather. America’s great a$$hat, John Wayne, reportedly assaulted her at the 1973 ceremony. Y’all remember John Wayne … the guy who dodged service in WWII to make movies and later shamelessly portrayed various military characters, although he never served in the armed forces during a time when an overwhelming majority of men did.

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences apologized to Sacheen Littlefeather, almost 50 years after the Native American activist and actor was met with disrespect and harassment as she declined Marlon Brando’s Oscar.

In 1973, Littlefeather became the first person to make a political statement at the Oscars ceremony. When Brando was announced as the best actor winner for his role in “The Godfather,” Littlefeather took the stage to make a powerful and poignant statement about the depiction of Native Americans in the entertainment industry.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ac ... -rcna43248

DocBarrister
@DocBarrister
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:50 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:37 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:55 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:43 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:55 pm But the point is taken and why I’m fine with politicians and regulatory agencies doing less. Every action taken implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) favors one class over another and it’s rarely discussed in terms of “do we want this tradeoff”? but rather only don’t you care about the class I’m supporting????
this is exactly where our government (and really most institutions) fall short. Every single decision has trade-off. Systems are complex. Actions have direct and indirect consequences.
The flip side is: there is a trade off to NOT have large, centralized Government.

And that trade off is: most States (as in, more than half) would have unsustainably high taxes if the Federal Government wasn't borrowing money, and giving it away to the States. This is what keeps the lights on in MOST States.

Picture Alaska without this practice. You'd be unable to live there without Federal money.

My standing 10yo+ question for proponents of a small, decentralized government has gone unanswered all these years. Care to take a crack at it?

Put a 10 year old kid in rural Colorado, 200 miles from any major city. Tell me how you employ his parents, give him 1st world health care, and educate this kid to the point where he can enter the workforce without socialism or Federal government handouts.
Yeah but folks here often don’t listen to what I’m saying on this topic.
I do! I COMPLETELY understand that for rational non-partisans the question isn't binary. It's a question of discuss where the line between big and small government should be.

My reaction is to the current leadership at the Republican party swears on a stack of bibles that they hate socialism, big government, and big spending.

They're lying, of course. Which would be fine, except their voters believe this horsehockey, and THIS is why the Republicans no longer govern at the National Level. Been like this for almost 30 years. They're stuck because they can't announce Big Government programs because they told their voters that Government...and the Federal Government in particular, is bad.

It's why these idiots will vote no on a simple, small, overdue Infrastructure Bill. They're just gone, and no longer wish to govern.
I suppose given where we are at we can look at the voters writ large as well - 74 million is a big number. But I see what you’re saying. Not sure it provides room for a position to discuss when it’s presented frequently as “all or nothing” so maybe it’s not intended to stimulate that type of discussion.

I still say racking up numbers on legislation isn’t “governing” by definition but that’s how politicians behave today. What did I pass or fight to stop.
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HooDat
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

Part of the problem is the language of politics and the perceived need to boil everything down to a soundbite. Of course republicans don't believe in no federal government, and of course they believe in some degree of income re-distribution - just look at their track record when in power, they spend like drunk sailors on shore leave.

The GOP is suffering a crisis of poor leadership and a lack of imagination. I criticize libertarians for this all the time - you can't say let me govern on a platform of I won't govern. The GOP has become stuck running AGAINST things rather than FOR things. The Dems run for things, I just don't like many of the things they are running "for" or where we agree on the agenda, I don't think they have thought through the secondary and tertiary effects and the resulting unintended consequences of their proposed "solutions". The left is clearly in favor of globalization and more and more centralization of decision-making. For a party that puts forward a love of diversity, their policies promote anything but.

I happen to think cultural diversity is a good thing (it creates competition of ideas and adds flavor to life). My career has allowed me to travel quite a bit particularly across the "modern western world". I have witnessed the McDonaldsification of Europe and the US in a way that is very sad. In order to find local color and cuisine you have to get off the beaten path more and more. You could travel from Miami to Dallas to LA to San Francisco to Vancouver to NYC to Boston to London to Paris to Berlin and meet people that have more in common than someone in Miami would with someone from Everglades City or someone from Boston would with someone from Pittsfield. It is a urbane vs rural / have's vs have-not's world and the spoils are going to the globalists - but they are stripping the character out of everywhere they touch.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by a fan »

HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am Part of the problem is the language of politics and the perceived need to boil everything down to a soundbite. Of course republicans don't believe in no federal government, and of course they believe in some degree of income re-distribution - just look at their track record when in power, they spend like drunk sailors on shore leave.
That's not the message that's getting received by Republican voters, my man.

Socialism is the enemy. Big Federal Government is the enemy. Those are the main messages that are sent 24/7.

The problem, as you know, is that these voters don't A. understand what socialism is, and B. don't bother to pay any attention whatsoever to how their Republican leaders actually legislate.

So as I pointed out, Trump increased the size of government by 66% in four years.....and not one single TrumpFan noticed or complained.

Republicans can literally do anything they choose while in office, because their voters pay ZERO attention to what they actually do, and instead, give all their attention to FoxNation and their media feeds.....who intentionally lie or ignore what Republican leaders sign into law.

The catch is that these Republican can't announce Big Government programs that actually help their voting block. So this means that they just throw money around, without any real direction. The money helps their voting district....but it's a temporary fix that doesn't have an ROI the way things like a "let's teach Kentucky how to code" program would.
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am The GOP is suffering a crisis of poor leadership and a lack of imagination. I criticize libertarians for this all the time - you can't say let me govern on a platform of I won't govern. The GOP has become stuck running AGAINST things rather than FOR things.
Yes. And again, i just told you why: they can't tell their voters that Big Government is the ONLY thing keeping the lights on for their voting base. They can't tell them that without large government money, their base doesn't stand a chase in the global free market for labor.

They can't tell them that if the Federal Government actually shrinks? The Republican base is royally F'ed.
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am The Dems run for things, I just don't like many of the things they are running "for" or where we agree on the agenda, I don't think they have thought through the secondary and tertiary effects and the resulting unintended consequences of their proposed "solutions".
And I don't think that you have thought about the secondary and tertiary effects and unintended consequences of less Federal government, relative to competing countries.

One example? I'm competing in the global market. You're forgetting that I have to compete with German, French, and UK distilleries where their worker show up after getting free education and/or training from the .gov, and show up for work with complete medical coverage.

I, on the other hand, have to pony up six figures every year to cover the medical care of my staff. And I'm out of pocket for all the education I provide for my crew. So before I even turn on the power in the morning to make whiskey? I'm already behind all of my 1st world competitors. This is NOT good.
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am The left is clearly in favor of globalization and more and more centralization of decision-making.
100% wrong. Bernie is 100% about America first. No wars, no bases overseas, no "cop to the world". He's pro-union, anti-multinational corporations, and pro working class & the poor. That's as anti-globalization as you get...and I don't know any real lefties who aren't the same on the broad economic strokes.

As for centralized decision making, real lefties are 100% grassroots, HooDat. As local as it gets.
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am I happen to think cultural diversity is a good thing (it creates competition of ideas and adds flavor to life). My career has allowed me to travel quite a bit particularly across the "modern western world". I have witnessed the McDonaldsification of Europe and the US in a way that is very sad. In order to find local color and cuisine you have to get off the beaten path more and more. You could travel from Miami to Dallas to LA to San Francisco to Vancouver to NYC to Boston to London to Paris to Berlin and meet people that have more in common than someone in Miami would with someone from Everglades City or someone from Boston would with someone from Pittsfield. It is a urbane vs rural / have's vs have-not's world and the spoils are going to the globalists - but they are stripping the character out of everywhere they touch.
Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.

And again----this is because the ONLY answer to help them is are Federal Government programs designed to help these voters. And they just can't cop to that in public.

Try explaining this to a flyover voter, HooDat: if the borders are open in terms of labor and where companies can move? The value for unskilled labor moves to the median.

So NAFTA and other policies? It royally screwed and gutted flyover America.

And for some freaking reason I don't get? Republicans don't teach their kids to code. So they're F'ed.

BTW....enjoying the conversation....glad you're back!
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm The catch is that these Republican can't announce Big Government programs that actually help their voting block. So this means that they just throw money around, without any real direction. The money helps their voting district....but it's a temporary fix that doesn't have an ROI the way things like a "let's teach Kentucky how to code" program would.
This is a very real problem. It started with Saint Ronald. There is a difference between saying "push the decision making as far down as practicable" and "all government is the problem". No the problem is unaccountable governments. That's the source of my general bias against centralized/federal solutions - a bureaucrat in DC is not very accountable to some citizen halfway across the country.
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:55 pm
By the way, just finished Farfromgeneva's suggested podcast: EconTalk interview of Nassim Taleb - interesting stuff where he talks about the very topic of pushing decision making down. "Seeing 1,000 people once vs seeing one person 1,000 times." Simple but profound little soundbite....
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm i just told you why: they can't tell their voters that Big Government is the ONLY thing keeping the lights on for their voting base. They can't tell them that without large government money, their base doesn't stand a chase in the global free market for labor.

They can't tell them that if the Federal Government actually shrinks? The Republican base is royally F'ed.
I get what you are saying, and agree that under our current political structure this is true. But, while pragmatically the place we find ourselves, it is not the only way to solve the puzzle. The problem again is that doing something radically different requires big thinking and leadership to reshape the way our federal, state and municipal governments interact. While you need the Feds to redistribute the money, you don't need them growing their power and the DC bureaucracy to do so.

.... but hold that thought for a moment,
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Bernie is 100% about America first. No wars, no bases overseas, no "cop to the world". He's pro-union, anti-multinational corporations, and pro working class & the poor. That's as anti-globalization as you get...and I don't know any real lefties who aren't the same on the broad economic strokes.

As for centralized decision making, real lefties are 100% grassroots, HooDat. As local as it gets.
yes, yes, yes. But Bernie had the door slammed in his face, the rug rip out from under him, was totally f'd over (pick your analogy) by the DNC. I look at our political parties and don't know whether to pat my butt or scratch my head...

...now back to the thought I asked you to hold: the way our parties have set themselves up is bad, bad, bad for the people (imagine that!). We don't need "conservatives" in one party and "progressives" in the other. At this point we need globalist/elitists in one party and localist/working class in the other. Conservative and progressive thinking on topics of import to an actual class of people. As you show, no political party can effectively rule under the banner of "we hate governing". The DNC party of Clinton is the globalist/elitist party. The other party should be representing the small business owner and working class as a blend of Bernie and (the non-racist arm of) MAGA. That is the political debate this country needs - elite vs working class. And we aren't going to get it, because the current parties are both serving the globalist elites - except the "traditional" GOP leaders have lost their voting base and think that by shouting down Trump they will get it back. They are dinosaurs and have no clue they are virtually extinct.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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youthathletics
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans? Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.

Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.

to be clear....not a fight or a scoreboard post.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

More criming by GOP voters, lawyers and officials:

https://www.ajc.com/politics/georgia-el ... G645EXLM4/

A group of Donald Trump supporters copied a trove of sensitive Georgia election files in Coffee County after the 2020 presidential election, a breach that included data from an election server, voter check-in computers and ballot memory cards, according to documents produced in response to subpoenas.

Trump attorney Sidney Powell helped coordinate the effort, and she was billed over $26,000 by computer experts from Atlanta tech company SullivanStrickler, the records show.

The GBI confirmed Tuesday that it has opened a criminal investigation of the incident on Jan. 7, 2021, when the group flew from Atlanta to South Georgia and were given access by local election officials to equipment that was supposed to be kept secure from outsiders. Computer trespass is a felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

The team that visited Georgia included some of the same people who worked with Trump supporters to penetrate election systems in other states, including in Antrim County, Michigan, and Clark County, Nevada. The Washington Post first reported on the documents on Monday, which were produced Friday in response to subpoenas in an ongoing election security lawsuit.

Suspicions about election equipment followed Trump’s loss in the 2020 presidential election, when his supporters claimed there was fraud and blamed voting machines manufactured by Dominion Voting Systems. Recounts, court cases and investigations have upheld the election results showing Joe Biden beat Trump. Dominion is seeking $1.6 billion in a defamation lawsuit against Fox News over unfounded claims about its equipment.

Election integrity activists say the Coffee County case shows that Georgia’s touchscreen-based voting system is vulnerable to insider attacks, a weakness that could enable wrongdoers to manipulate results.

State election officials have said Georgia’s elections remain secure, and it would be difficult to hack election computers during an ongoing election.

Paul Maggio, chief operating officer for SullivanStrickler, wrote in an email to Powell that he had gathered election data and records from Coffee County.

“Sidney, everything went smoothly yesterday with the Coffee County collection. Everyone involved was extremely helpful,” Maggio wrote on Jan. 8, 2021. “We are consolidating all of the data collected and will be uploading it to our secure site for access by your team. Hopefully we can take care of payment today.”

Text messages disclosed through the subpoenas indicate that local officials helped the computer experts copy election information, giving them access to the county election office. They included election board member Eric Chaney, former county Election Director Misty Hampton and former county Republican Party Chairwoman Cathy Latham, who also attempted to cast Georgia’s votes for Trump as a fake elector for the Georgia Republican Party on Dec. 14, 2020.


A hard drive produced from Maggio’s subpoena includes dozens of files and folders copied by SullivanStrickler, such as the election management server, memory cards, ballot scanners and ballot images. The secretary of state’s office replaced the county’s server last year.

Powell, Maggio, Chaney, Hampton and Latham didn’t return emails and phone calls seeking comment. Hampton resigned last year following allegations that she had falsified timesheets.

“Rogue election officials will not be tolerated in Georgia,” said Mike Hassinger, a spokesman for the secretary of state’s office. “Prior to this latest disclosure, the Georgia secretary of state’s office and the State Election Board had already looped in appropriate authorities, including criminal law enforcement agencies, to assist in the investigation into the alleged unlawful access in Coffee County. That investigation continues, and any wrongdoers should be prosecuted.”

Marilyn Marks, a plaintiff in the lawsuit that sought the subpoenas, said the documents are evidence that Georgia’s election system has been compromised, increasing the risk of malware and hacks in upcoming elections. She said the secretary of state’s office should switch from its voting system that uses touchscreens to print paper ballots.

“It is imperative that they turn their attention to hand-marked paper ballots using emergency procedures for November because the entire state of Georgia’s software is out there in the wild,” Marks said. “This takes away all of their excuses to stick with ballot-marking devices.”

A report by the U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Agency found in June that voting touchscreens used in Georgia have several security vulnerabilities, though there’s no evidence they’ve been manipulated so far.

Malicious code that changed votes could be spread if someone gained physical access to voting touchscreens or the election management system computers that program them, the kind of access gained in Coffee County after Georgia’s election results had already been certified.

“You just have to find one county that’s willing to let you come in,” said David Cross, an attorney for the plaintiffs in the case. “The only defense the state has is to say, ‘Don’t worry, nobody can exploit the vulnerabilities.’ We now know that’s just not accurate.”
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans? Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.

Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.

to be clear....not a fight or a scoreboard post.
mmmm, big generalization here, but "corporate types" typically want low cost production...and if that means offshoring to get cheap labor, so be it. They certainly don't actually care about "rural America" or "urban America", never have, never will. They care about their bottom line growth, not employing Americans (if a robot is cheaper, employ the robot). They also never cared much about pollution, other than what government controls were enforced. Nor any other exogenous costs.

Their US employees these days, especially younger employees, and their younger, US consumers, are more ideological, so executives have grown increasingly conscious of more than low cost production. But only because that's good for the bottom line.

As to MAGA, were there any actual policies that worked for rural economies? Nope...
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Re: Conservative Ideology

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:16 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans? Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.

Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.

to be clear....not a fight or a scoreboard post.
mmmm, big generalization here, but "corporate types" typically want low cost production...and if that means offshoring to get cheap labor, so be it. They certainly don't actually care about "rural America" or "urban America", never have, never will. They care about their bottom line growth, not employing Americans (if a robot is cheaper, employ the robot). They also never cared much about pollution, other than what government controls were enforced. Nor any other exogenous costs.

Their US employees these days, especially younger employees, and their younger, US consumers, are more ideological, so executives have grown increasingly conscious of more than low cost production. But only because that's good for the bottom line.

As to MAGA, were there any actual policies that worked for rural economies? Nope...
Never said they cared about rural america...you did, for some reason. My point was, as corporate types expand their portfolios....it bleeds into rural/urban america, full stop...and guess who has to build these places, work in these places, service these places, support these places, and so on.....see the forest MD, talk about generalizations. Who is the CEO and President of Walmart....exactly, you think when they build a big box store in rural america, it means this zip code is open for business....and here comes more rural business. But hey...why build a walmart in america when you can build it overseas or use AI :roll: ;)

I wonder what presidential policy is needed for walmart to build its stores in podunk city, usa. :lol:
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Re: Conservative Ideology

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youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm Now THIS I agree with. And it's what I mocked PeteBrown about------the Republican party hasn't had one single major policy that helps rural Americans in decades. They don't have a plan, and don't know what to do.
Can you clarify your comment. Why does there need to be a 'policy' to help rural Amaricans?
Because without it, they're F'ed. And I want rural America to survive.

The ONLY reason they're not totally shut down? Trillions in Federal Borrowing, pumped through these rural States.

Do you think, for example, West Virginia could possibly afford to combat meth addiction on their own? Or East Kentucky and the massive flooding they're dealing with, yet agaIn?

I've said it a million times: THIS is why guys like Mitch McConnell outspend the Democrats by TRILLIONS, and it's not even a close call.

Mitchey McConnell on the infrastructure bill:

McConnell spoke in Morehead, Ky., on Monday, noting the Bluegrass State has “a lot” of infrastructure needs after touring a facility for indoor farming company AppHarvest, according to CBS News affiliate WKYT.

He pointed to Kentucky’s infrastructure report card from the American Society of Civil Engineers, which gives it a C-minus.

“I’m surprised we even got a C,” McConnell told WKYT. “We have a lot of infrastructure needs, both in rural areas and with big bridges. It’s a godsend for Kentucky.”


https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/580 ... -kentucky/
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm Weren't the R's laughed out of the room when bringing manufacturing back to the US was on the table, the entire theme of MAGA was to help all Americans, especially rural areas that were once thriving.
Oh, I remember. Do you remember WHY everyone laughed at them? The only way to bring manufacturing back, is to legislate. And Trump and the Republicans, to the shock of no one, didn't lift a single finger to do that. Tax breaks don't work....obviously.
youthathletics wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:26 pm Maybe you meant something else, but using the term 'policy', to me, implies you want gov't to fix it...and not corporate America. Traditionally corporate America c-suite types have leaned republican, so the policies they fight for, are the ones that allow them spend their (ahem - tax break $$) on growth, which benefits...well, rural america & urban areas.
What you just described is Trickle down economics....and surely you know that this is simply incorrect, and does not work.

Multinationals ENTIRE motivation is growth. That's it. Everything else is in third place, at best. Taxes are irrelevant motivators for them.

The ONLY time Wall Street talks about cash flow (taxes are a part of that)? Recession, where investors move from speculative stocks, to companies that cash flow and hand out dividends. Otherwise? It's all growth.

So given that, why the F would we look to incentive behavior via tax breaks? It's stupid policy that doesn't work, and shorts every State in America of tax money. Idiotic.

But to my point? Balance the Federal Government's budget, and stop borrowing. Do that for even 4 years? Rural America is done, stick a fork in them.

Heck, just ONE line item in Biden's infrastructure bill helped rural America in a way that there's NO WAY the free market would EVER do.....

The infrastructure legislation (formally known as the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act) includes a total of $65 billion for broadband, which will be distributed through a variety of programs. The largest is the $42.45 billion Broadband Equity, Access and Deployment (BEAD) program, which will funnel money through the states to fuel deployments in un- and underserved areas.
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Re: Conservative Ideology

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a fan wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:27 pm Multinationals ENTIRE motivation is growth. That's it. Everything else is in third place, at best. Taxes are irrelevant motivators for them.
That is my entire argument and for growth to take place. They want what is in the best interest for them, which is what?....Exactly, a place for no/low cost growth. Your latter comment seems to contradict your prior arguments over the years...remember you praised AOC for kicking out Amazon because of the tax breaks NYC had on the table and were furious when Va. did the same for Amazon headquarters. You said....Taxes are irrelevant motivators for them, how so, if it is often the carrot that lures them to close the deal?

Maybe we are talking past one another again....we seem to be awfully close.
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