January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32140
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
PizzaSnake
Posts: 4688
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:55 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on waysJan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Rhodes apparently spent another $40k on weapons and military gear in the Jan 7 - Jan 19 period.
As always: follow the money? Was this dominionist christian fascism (Mercers, etc.), or kakistocrats ( Koch) like the FDR putsch attempt in 1934?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25748
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:03 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
I'd missed your emphasis in Salty's thoughts...Salty, are you saying that you think the Oathkeepers were intending to shoot Antifa protestors if they showed up? Kill a bunch of fellow Americans?

They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.

will be interesting to learn what Stone et al communications were, what the plan really was, what the 'war room' was doing and directing...
PizzaSnake
Posts: 4688
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:15 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:03 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
I'd missed your emphasis in Salty's thoughts...Salty, are you saying that you think the Oathkeepers were intending to shoot Antifa protestors if they showed up? Kill a bunch of fellow Americans?

They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.

will be interesting to learn what Stone et al communications were, what the plan really was, what the 'war room' was doing and directing...
Only fly in the ointment is the near certainly that any successful Republican President would pardon them all.

Or do you think Trumpism is a flash in the pan?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25748
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:18 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:15 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:03 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
I'd missed your emphasis in Salty's thoughts...Salty, are you saying that you think the Oathkeepers were intending to shoot Antifa protestors if they showed up? Kill a bunch of fellow Americans?

They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.

will be interesting to learn what Stone et al communications were, what the plan really was, what the 'war room' was doing and directing...
Only fly in the ointment is the near certainly that any successful Republican President would pardon them all.

Or do you think Trumpism is a flash in the pan?
nope, I'm very concerned that democracy is America is about to morph into something more akin to Eastern European faux democracy.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14435
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:18 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:15 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:03 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
I'd missed your emphasis in Salty's thoughts...Salty, are you saying that you think the Oathkeepers were intending to shoot Antifa protestors if they showed up? Kill a bunch of fellow Americans?

They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.

will be interesting to learn what Stone et al communications were, what the plan really was, what the 'war room' was doing and directing...
Only fly in the ointment is the near certainly that any successful Republican President would pardon them all.

Or do you think Trumpism is a flash in the pan?
nope, I'm very concerned that democracy is America is about to morph into something more akin to Eastern European faux democracy.
So much for your optimism you claimed to have ;) . Trumpism will die off, a slow death, but it will die off. THe speed at which it does, will take a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
PizzaSnake
Posts: 4688
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

youthathletics wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm
nope, I'm very concerned that democracy is America is about to morph into something more akin to Eastern European faux democracy.
So much for your optimism you claimed to have ;) . Trumpism will die off, a slow death, but it will die off. THe speed at which it does, will take a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.
Trimmed for sanity..

Not sure we have the luxury of waiting for "a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.' I think the "body blows" à la a "Sonny Liston"-like climate change are coming soon. Going to take something like FDR and his fear quotation, and that still might not work - I'm not sure our rivals will allow us sufficient time. Also, I think Americans are too soft for the requisite privation such a response would entail.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
CU88
Posts: 4431
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by CU88 »

More evidence of the lack of law & order by the r's:

The Travis County district attorney on Thursday found that Attorney General Ken Paxton violated the state's open records law by not turning over his communications from last January when he visited Washington, D.C., for a pro-Trump rally that preceded the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/13 ... 6-records/
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25748
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

dupe
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25748
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:26 pm
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm
nope, I'm very concerned that democracy is America is about to morph into something more akin to Eastern European faux democracy.
So much for your optimism you claimed to have ;) . Trumpism will die off, a slow death, but it will die off. THe speed at which it does, will take a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.
Trimmed for sanity..

Not sure we have the luxury of waiting for "a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.' I think the "body blows" à la a "Sonny Liston"-like climate change are coming soon. Going to take something like FDR and his fear quotation, and that still might not work - I'm not sure our rivals will allow us sufficient time. Also, I think Americans are too soft for the requisite privation such a response would entail.
I never claimed "optimism" about Trump or Trumpism. I've been shouting off the rooftops about the dangers of Trump and his followers' authoritarian impulses from even before the 2016 election and have only grown louder since then.

I've had a single answer to Trumpism and that's that it will require Trumpism's complete and ignominious refutation, not simply at the polls but by the GOP itself. They had a moment in time where it looked like that would happen, but very strangely, they went all-in for Trumpism including it's very worst reflections. Grossly so. They've embraced white supremacists. They've embraced Qanon. They've embraced the Big Lie. And they've rejected all semblances of respect for the rule of law or even common decency. It's downright crazy, but there we are.

So, at this point I don't know what will break the stranglehold of this ideology. It's definitely not just going to wither and die.

I do agree with your more general point about robust economics and employment (surely that's what we're experiencing now, albeit with inflation) and peacetime...no troops in hot wars anywhere.

Indeed, I think that was exactly what the Biden playbook was, grapple with Covid, encourage economic recovery, make massive commitments to multi-year infrastructure investments that will drive employment and other economic productivity benefits, etc, etc. End our longest war.

And had the GOP dumped Trump, all of that might well have worked...R's would have regained respectability and a voice, yes some excessive spending likely would have occurred, but a GOP candidate might well have emerged to take on the Dems in 2024, or at least by 2028, and the GOP would have likely gained seats in 2022. Functioning democracy.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17508
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:15 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:03 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
I'd missed your emphasis in Salty's thoughts...Salty, are you saying that you think the Oathkeepers were intending to shoot Antifa protestors if they showed up? Kill a bunch of fellow Americans?

They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.

will be interesting to learn what Stone et al communications were, what the plan really was, what the 'war room' was doing and directing...
We will learn more about why they stashed firearms, but did not bring them on Jan 6, as the litigation proceeds. There's likely texts & other comms about their plans. I don't think they were foolish enough to plan to engage in gunplay with the police & NG.
I think they were preparing in case of a replay of the Dec 12 & earlier clashes with ANTIFA/BLM (shh, don't tell TLD).
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/statu ... 7990648840
https://wtop.com/dc/2020/12/pro-trump-s ... ain-in-dc/
https://wtop.com/dc/2020/11/what-to-kno ... s-weekend/
get it to x
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by get it to x »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:22 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:26 pm
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm
nope, I'm very concerned that democracy is America is about to morph into something more akin to Eastern European faux democracy.
So much for your optimism you claimed to have ;) . Trumpism will die off, a slow death, but it will die off. THe speed at which it does, will take a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.
Trimmed for sanity..

Not sure we have the luxury of waiting for "a robust economic and employment recovery, coupled with an extended peacetime.' I think the "body blows" à la a "Sonny Liston"-like climate change are coming soon. Going to take something like FDR and his fear quotation, and that still might not work - I'm not sure our rivals will allow us sufficient time. Also, I think Americans are too soft for the requisite privation such a response would entail.
I never claimed "optimism" about Trump or Trumpism. I've been shouting off the rooftops about the dangers of Trump and his followers' authoritarian impulses from even before the 2016 election and have only grown louder since then.

I've had a single answer to Trumpism and that's that it will require Trumpism's complete and ignominious refutation, not simply at the polls but by the GOP itself. They had a moment in time where it looked like that would happen, but very strangely, they went all-in for Trumpism including it's very worst reflections. Grossly so. They've embraced white supremacists. They've embraced Qanon. They've embraced the Big Lie. And they've rejected all semblances of respect for the rule of law or even common decency. It's downright crazy, but there we are.

So, at this point I don't know what will break the stranglehold of this ideology. It's definitely not just going to wither and die.

I do agree with your more general point about robust economics and employment (surely that's what we're experiencing now, albeit with inflation) and peacetime...no troops in hot wars anywhere.

Indeed, I think that was exactly what the Biden playbook was, grapple with Covid, encourage economic recovery, make massive commitments to multi-year infrastructure investments that will drive employment and other economic productivity benefits, etc, etc. End our longest war.

And had the GOP dumped Trump, all of that might well have worked...R's would have regained respectability and a voice, yes some excessive spending likely would have occurred, but a GOP candidate might well have emerged to take on the Dems in 2024, or at least by 2028, and the GOP would have likely gained seats in 2022. Functioning democracy.
If by authoritarian do you mean The First Step Act, Middle East peace treaties that aimed to diminish Iran, making NATO allies pay their fair share and raising wages for the non-collegiate class while pushing back on a semi-demented popular culture. First president to fly the Rainbow flag above the White House. Ceaucescu maybe?
"I would never want to belong to a club that would have me as a member", Groucho Marx
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32140
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:15 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:03 am
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:36 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 pm Makes a mockery of the military's claim to being special and protecting the democracy and apolitically serving the people and the government. Training has gone south - literally.
Specifics please.
Tune into Maddow... ;)

I think this is but one of several shoes to drop on more serious charges. This includes Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers...with lots and lots of text communications that are off the hook whacko violent in their militant rhetoric...direct organization and heavy militarization. Lots of spending on military grade weapons and gear.
The Oath Keepers are a self-selected group of former military, law enforcement & first responders. You'll learn more about the 5 military vets in this indictment, as things proceed. You will find that 3 had less than distinguished service & departed under less than favorable circumstances, #4 was retired medically for his war wounds & failed to thrive. I'm still researching #5, who had a criminal record after he left the service.

3 were vets of our forever wars & their departure from rationality might hold some lessons about how many vets from those wars adapt.

Caldwell managed to stay in the Navy Reserve as an Intel officer for 19 years, but did not make it to the normal 20 year mark for retirement as an O-4. His attorney noted that he is on full disability due to spinal injuries suffered while in the service.

Rhodes did just one hitch as a paratrooper right out of HS, was injured in a jump & medically discharged. He hooked up with Ron Paul & ended up graduating from Yale Law, so he's qualified to vote in the Ivy poll.

Based on earlier reports, I believe the weapons stash & Jan 6th QRF's were standing by to engage Antifa counter-demonstrators if they turned up as they had in the Dec protests in DC. I don't think they planned on engaging the police with weapons on Jan 6. It will be interesting to learn what they did with their weapons cache after Jan 6th. As to what they planned for after Jan 6, it will be a challenge to prove what was actually planned vs what was bluster.
Yep and BLM.
:lol: :lol:
>>The BLM peaceful protesters in Portland are shielding their anarchist shock troops, then cheering & facilitating them as they surge to the front & attack the court house every night, at or just before midnight. It's been the same game plan the past 50+ days.
The Mayor & Governor could end it immediately -- deploy their Police & National Guard (if necessary) to protect the Court House.
They don't want it to end. It serves their narrative. If they protect the Court House, Trump will be forced to pull back, then withdraw the additional Fed assets that he sent in. afan's refusal to distinguish between the violent rioters & the peaceful protesters belies his claim of being a reasonable, nonpartisan moderate.<<
I'd missed your emphasis in Salty's thoughts...Salty, are you saying that you think the Oathkeepers were intending to shoot Antifa protestors if they showed up? Kill a bunch of fellow Americans?

They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.

will be interesting to learn what Stone et al communications were, what the plan really was, what the 'war room' was doing and directing...
We will learn more about why they stashed firearms, but did not bring them on Jan 6, as the litigation proceeds. There's likely texts & other comms about their plans. I don't think they were foolish enough to plan to engage in gunplay with the police & NG.
I think they were preparing in case of a replay of the Dec 12 & earlier clashes with ANTIFA/BLM (shh, don't tell TLD).
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/statu ... 7990648840
https://wtop.com/dc/2020/12/pro-trump-s ... ain-in-dc/
https://wtop.com/dc/2020/11/what-to-kno ... s-weekend/
Remember Kent State!!
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17508
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:22 pm They've embraced white supremacists. They've embraced Qanon. They've embraced the Big Lie. And they've rejected all semblances of respect for the rule of law or even common decency. It's downright crazy, but there we are.
Tolerated & endured, rather than embraced. They feel they can contain, steer & influence the RW crazies,
unlike the LW AOC crazies, who they can't influence, who are just as authoritarian & more spiteful.

The moderates in both parties are trying to control & endure their lunatic fringe.
Be it Manchin & Sinema or Cheney & Kinzinger.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17508
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.
:roll: . Stop it ! I meant they did not intend to fight the police with guns. That's why they did not bring guns to the Capitol. You know what I meant.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32140
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.
:roll: . Stop it ! I meant they did not intend to fight the police with guns. That's why they did not bring guns to the Capitol. You know what I meant.
So they expected a fight with the police despite just being visitors?
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17508
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:17 am
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm They didn't intend to fight police??? But then did fight police??? That part doesn't seem right, they clearly intended to violently overturn the election results, had to know that the government (police, military) would be opposed...unless you're saying they had some reason to believe they would be unopposed and the only opposition would be Antifa???

I do think that there was originally an expectation of conflict with counter-protestors and indeed, it's plausible that the whole game plan was for that to devolve into such violence it would give Trump an excuse to declare martial law...but the counter protestors stayed away and the plan fell apart...so, Trump directed them at the Capitol directly. But that may well have not been the original plan.
:roll: . Stop it ! I meant they did not intend to fight the police with guns. That's why they did not bring guns to the Capitol. You know what I meant.
So they expected a fight with the police despite just being visitors?
No, they planned on a shootout. They just forgot to bring their guns & left them at their motel or in their truck.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 13840
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jan-6 ... hp&pc=U531

Interesting read, if you have an open mind.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
seacoaster
Posts: 8866
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by seacoaster »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:35 am https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jan-6 ... hp&pc=U531

Interesting read, if you have an open mind.
This little opinion piece is not aging well. Already.
Oldbarndog
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:28 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Oldbarndog »

seacoaster wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:54 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:35 am https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jan-6 ... hp&pc=U531

Interesting read, if you have an open mind.
This little opinion piece is not aging well. Already.

But, as more info rolls out, it was a coup.
"Dear Naps. Sorry I was such a jerk to you when I was a kid"
Post Reply

Return to “POLITICS”