January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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jhu72
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by jhu72 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:53 am It is or should be pretty clear that the brains (what is left of them) in the republiCON ecosphere know it is time to wrap this up. The longer it goes on the worse November will be for the republiCONs.

MAGA!
I don't know whether this is even possible, but the smartest play the GOP could have would be to call for a new impeachment vote in the Senate and get it done quickly. McConnell whipping the GOP to vote to convict. <<<< my thought as well. Dems might go for it.

End that suspense, clear that deck...the process of the Committee will be ongoing, the final report devastating for posterity, and various players will be indicted, but politically, the GOP should turn its back hard on Trump and the worst of his enablers.

The smartest play for any of those who think they have liability for what went down would be to testify truthfully and fully about what they saw, heard and knew, AND as best they can, argue they didn't want the violence, simply wanted to support Trump. Give truthful evidence against Trump and anyone else driving this fiasco. Their lawyers will likely tell them to do so with DOJ directly, with some sort of proffer agreement.

Some will be incapable of making that argument and they should be fried for it.

It'll be painful, but the GOP overall can only separate themselves from the craziness this way, and get back to their culture war BS as unrelated to Trump. The sooner they do so, the better for them at the ballot box.

And it has the benefit of being the "right" thing to do.

From only a crass political perspective, the Dems would prefer that this builds and builds, but doesn't end with a clean slate for the remaining GOP, but rather that it weighs very heavily, as Trump continues to be a force of great discord. Let the GOP eat itself.

But the "right" thing would be to impeach/convict Trump again and be done with that political aspect. At that point, but only at that point, I think Biden's smartest play, and best for the nation move, would be to actually pardon Trump for the specific crimes of "Jan 6", in a "heal the nation" moment. But not pardon others, let the seditious conspiracy charges play out with the "indicted co-conspirator" being ever present in those trials. Some will plea out, others won't and should be convicted.

Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.
... don't know how I feel about a pardon, but I do know how the democratic party feels --- they want a pound of flesh out of this guy. His crime is much greater, more significant than Nixon's.
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jhu72
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by jhu72 »

Peter Brown wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:27 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:53 am It is or should be pretty clear that the brains (what is left of them) in the republiCON ecosphere know it is time to wrap this up. The longer it goes on the worse November will be for the republiCONs.

MAGA!




Truly epic post.

Are you aware what befell the Democrats and their oh-so-democracy-saving project in Colorado last night?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-o-de ... 531639690e

Playing with fire burning Democrats money. It’s failing in every race. MD thinks Republicans are MAGA though.

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/14/democr ... candidates
... yes and it is absolutely irrelevant. :roll:
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:35 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:53 am It is or should be pretty clear that the brains (what is left of them) in the republiCON ecosphere know it is time to wrap this up. The longer it goes on the worse November will be for the republiCONs.

MAGA!
I don't know whether this is even possible, but the smartest play the GOP could have would be to call for a new impeachment vote in the Senate and get it done quickly. McConnell whipping the GOP to vote to convict. <<<< my thought as well. Dems might go for it.

End that suspense, clear that deck...the process of the Committee will be ongoing, the final report devastating for posterity, and various players will be indicted, but politically, the GOP should turn its back hard on Trump and the worst of his enablers.

The smartest play for any of those who think they have liability for what went down would be to testify truthfully and fully about what they saw, heard and knew, AND as best they can, argue they didn't want the violence, simply wanted to support Trump. Give truthful evidence against Trump and anyone else driving this fiasco. Their lawyers will likely tell them to do so with DOJ directly, with some sort of proffer agreement.

Some will be incapable of making that argument and they should be fried for it.

It'll be painful, but the GOP overall can only separate themselves from the craziness this way, and get back to their culture war BS as unrelated to Trump. The sooner they do so, the better for them at the ballot box.

And it has the benefit of being the "right" thing to do.

From only a crass political perspective, the Dems would prefer that this builds and builds, but doesn't end with a clean slate for the remaining GOP, but rather that it weighs very heavily, as Trump continues to be a force of great discord. Let the GOP eat itself.

But the "right" thing would be to impeach/convict Trump again and be done with that political aspect. At that point, but only at that point, I think Biden's smartest play, and best for the nation move, would be to actually pardon Trump for the specific crimes of "Jan 6", in a "heal the nation" moment. But not pardon others, let the seditious conspiracy charges play out with the "indicted co-conspirator" being ever present in those trials. Some will plea out, others won't and should be convicted.

Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.
... don't know how I feel about a pardon, but I do know how the democratic party feels --- they want a pound of flesh out of this guy. His crime is much greater, more significant than Nixon's.
I certainly agree with your second sentence. Much worse.

And I agree that from a political perspective, the move by Biden would be hard for the Dem base to swallow. But if supported by people like Obama and the members of the Committee, it would go a long, long way to winning elections.

There are tons of issues for the base to care a huge amount about, and turn out for, differentiating Dems from GOP, as the GOP continues to tack deeper into the ugly morass of culture wars. But the moderates and Independents would largely be relieved to see the temperature lowered on this terrible trauma. The stench will remain on the election deniers, one by one, and the issue will stay in the public eye, but they will appreciate that the most traumatic trial simply won't have to happen. Convict others close to him of seditious conspiracy; Trump's the "un-indicted co-conspirator" who led them. That'll be obvious.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by ggait »

The GOP problem has been and continues to be this.

They can't live with Trump. But they can't live without Trumpism and Trump's voters.

The only time any of them ever criticized Trump was for a very few days after 1/6 when they assumed (wrongly) that Trump had finally become a toxic albatross. Once they realized 1/6 still wasn't enough to end Trump, they all fell back in line. Which is the pathetic dance of trying to keep Trump's voters while not getting completely soiled by their continuing association with Trump. Hence all the stammering about "moving on."

Good luck with that. It might get Kevin McCarthy the speakership. But is the disgrace and humiliation really worth it Kev?

I really doubt Garland will indict Trump. Even though Trump absolutely deserves it. The trial would be a circus, and even one MAGA on the jury is enough for an acquittal.

The only way to end Trump and Trumpism is for the Dems to do it (again) at the ballot box. The GOP just will never be able to do it themselves.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
jhu72
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by jhu72 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:45 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:35 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:53 am It is or should be pretty clear that the brains (what is left of them) in the republiCON ecosphere know it is time to wrap this up. The longer it goes on the worse November will be for the republiCONs.

MAGA!
I don't know whether this is even possible, but the smartest play the GOP could have would be to call for a new impeachment vote in the Senate and get it done quickly. McConnell whipping the GOP to vote to convict. <<<< my thought as well. Dems might go for it.

End that suspense, clear that deck...the process of the Committee will be ongoing, the final report devastating for posterity, and various players will be indicted, but politically, the GOP should turn its back hard on Trump and the worst of his enablers.

The smartest play for any of those who think they have liability for what went down would be to testify truthfully and fully about what they saw, heard and knew, AND as best they can, argue they didn't want the violence, simply wanted to support Trump. Give truthful evidence against Trump and anyone else driving this fiasco. Their lawyers will likely tell them to do so with DOJ directly, with some sort of proffer agreement.

Some will be incapable of making that argument and they should be fried for it.

It'll be painful, but the GOP overall can only separate themselves from the craziness this way, and get back to their culture war BS as unrelated to Trump. The sooner they do so, the better for them at the ballot box.

And it has the benefit of being the "right" thing to do.

From only a crass political perspective, the Dems would prefer that this builds and builds, but doesn't end with a clean slate for the remaining GOP, but rather that it weighs very heavily, as Trump continues to be a force of great discord. Let the GOP eat itself.

But the "right" thing would be to impeach/convict Trump again and be done with that political aspect. At that point, but only at that point, I think Biden's smartest play, and best for the nation move, would be to actually pardon Trump for the specific crimes of "Jan 6", in a "heal the nation" moment. But not pardon others, let the seditious conspiracy charges play out with the "indicted co-conspirator" being ever present in those trials. Some will plea out, others won't and should be convicted.

Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.
... don't know how I feel about a pardon, but I do know how the democratic party feels --- they want a pound of flesh out of this guy. His crime is much greater, more significant than Nixon's.
I certainly agree with your second sentence. Much worse.

And I agree that from a political perspective, the move by Biden would be hard for the Dem base to swallow. But if supported by people like Obama and the members of the Committee, it would go a long, long way to winning elections.

There are tons of issues for the base to care a huge amount about, and turn out for, differentiating Dems from GOP, as the GOP continues to tack deeper into the ugly morass of culture wars. But the moderates and Independents would largely be relieved to see the temperature lowered on this terrible trauma. The stench will remain on the election deniers, one by one, and the issue will stay in the public eye, but they will appreciate that the most traumatic trial simply won't have to happen. Convict others close to him of seditious conspiracy; Trump's the "un-indicted co-conspirator" who led them. That'll be obvious.
... let's see if we cross the bridge first --- the impeachment.
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PizzaSnake
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:53 am It is or should be pretty clear that the brains (what is left of them) in the republiCON ecosphere know it is time to wrap this up. The longer it goes on the worse November will be for the republiCONs.

MAGA!
I don't know whether this is even possible, but the smartest play the GOP could have would be to call for a new impeachment vote in the Senate and get it done quickly. McConnell whipping the GOP to vote to convict.

End that suspense, clear that deck...the process of the Committee will be ongoing, the final report devastating for posterity, and various players will be indicted, but politically, the GOP should turn its back hard on Trump and the worst of his enablers.

The smartest play for any of those who think they have liability for what went down would be to testify truthfully and fully about what they saw, heard and knew, AND as best they can, argue they didn't want the violence, simply wanted to support Trump. Give truthful evidence against Trump and anyone else driving this fiasco. Their lawyers will likely tell them to do so with DOJ directly, with some sort of proffer agreement.

Some will be incapable of making that argument and they should be fried for it.

It'll be painful, but the GOP overall can only separate themselves from the craziness this way, and get back to their culture war BS as unrelated to Trump. The sooner they do so, the better for them at the ballot box.

And it has the benefit of being the "right" thing to do.

From only a crass political perspective, the Dems would prefer that this builds and builds, but doesn't end with a clean slate for the remaining GOP, but rather that it weighs very heavily, as Trump continues to be a force of great discord. Let the GOP eat itself.

But the "right" thing would be to impeach/convict Trump again and be done with that political aspect. At that point, but only at that point, I think Biden's smartest play, and best for the nation move, would be to actually pardon Trump for the specific crimes of "Jan 6", in a "heal the nation" moment. But not pardon others, let the seditious conspiracy charges play out with the "indicted co-conspirator" being ever present in those trials. Some will plea out, others won't and should be convicted.

Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.
“Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.”

Nope. Nixon’s pardon begat Reagan and Oliver North, which begat Trump. This pattern has to end with Trump’s conviction and, at a minimum, removal from public sphere( no public platform from which he can foment further rebellion) and community (exile or house arrest).

Not excising and cauterizing this wound on the body politic will lead to cultural sepsis which will kill the American experiment.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:39 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:53 am It is or should be pretty clear that the brains (what is left of them) in the republiCON ecosphere know it is time to wrap this up. The longer it goes on the worse November will be for the republiCONs.

MAGA!
I don't know whether this is even possible, but the smartest play the GOP could have would be to call for a new impeachment vote in the Senate and get it done quickly. McConnell whipping the GOP to vote to convict.

End that suspense, clear that deck...the process of the Committee will be ongoing, the final report devastating for posterity, and various players will be indicted, but politically, the GOP should turn its back hard on Trump and the worst of his enablers.

The smartest play for any of those who think they have liability for what went down would be to testify truthfully and fully about what they saw, heard and knew, AND as best they can, argue they didn't want the violence, simply wanted to support Trump. Give truthful evidence against Trump and anyone else driving this fiasco. Their lawyers will likely tell them to do so with DOJ directly, with some sort of proffer agreement.

Some will be incapable of making that argument and they should be fried for it.

It'll be painful, but the GOP overall can only separate themselves from the craziness this way, and get back to their culture war BS as unrelated to Trump. The sooner they do so, the better for them at the ballot box.

And it has the benefit of being the "right" thing to do.

From only a crass political perspective, the Dems would prefer that this builds and builds, but doesn't end with a clean slate for the remaining GOP, but rather that it weighs very heavily, as Trump continues to be a force of great discord. Let the GOP eat itself.

But the "right" thing would be to impeach/convict Trump again and be done with that political aspect. At that point, but only at that point, I think Biden's smartest play, and best for the nation move, would be to actually pardon Trump for the specific crimes of "Jan 6", in a "heal the nation" moment. But not pardon others, let the seditious conspiracy charges play out with the "indicted co-conspirator" being ever present in those trials. Some will plea out, others won't and should be convicted.

Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.
“Some may disagree about the pardon Trump play, but I think the trauma of putting a former President in jail would be very damaging, and not worth the squeeze.”

Nope. Nixon’s pardon begat Reagan and Oliver North, which begat Trump. This pattern has to end with Trump’s conviction and, at a minimum, removal from public sphere( no public platform from which he can foment further rebellion) and community (exile or house arrest).

Not excising and cauterizing this wound on the body politic will lead to cultural sepsis which will kill the American experiment.
Like I said, "some may disagree" ;)

This only makes sense if the GOP convicts in the Senate and does so overwhelmingly. That's unlikely, for the reasons ggait suggests.

The more probable situation is that the GOP continues to try to cover for Trump.

I see ggait's point that it only takes one MAGA on the jury to fail to convict Trump in court. And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.

I think convictions are far more possible for Eastman, Clark, Rudy, Stone, Bannon, etc, etc.

Thus my preference for a scenario where Trump is thoroughly rebuked by the GOP, can't run for office again, and yet the country is spared the calamity of a failed trial...or no trial...

I'm not betting on my preference happening, though.
(and yes, my ideal preference would be Trump in jail...I just don't see it happening)
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by ggait »

And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

ggait wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:07 pm
And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

ggait wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:07 pm
And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
Voir dire would be pretty important.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:18 pm
ggait wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:07 pm
And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
Voir dire would be pretty important.
:)

The case would likely be in DC, not The Villages, so at least the starting point of the group responding to jury summons would not be so skewed as to not be able to avoid a cult member no matter the obviousness of such. Jury nullification would at least be harder to achieve, though it only takes one.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by SCLaxAttack »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:16 pm
ggait wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:07 pm
And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
cult
Yes, a cult. But Trump isn't handing out laced Kool-Aid so the cult will live on.

Trumpnista aren't buying any of this. I happened to look at last night's FoxNews home page. The Hutchinson testimony was story #6. Right now the story is #20 and here's the headline: "Bombshell claims in Jan. 6 testimony disputed by ex_Trump officials, sources say."

They live in an alternative universe.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

mmm, good comparison of his public words and what he was saying privately, just more overtly.

Classic, the "hundreds of thousands of people back there"...
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:18 pm
ggait wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:07 pm
And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
Voir dire would be pretty important.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Matnum PI »

Today's Hearing did not help Donald Trump. Just listening to The Daily and... Not good.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/29/podc ... trump.html
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

Regarding prosecution of Trump, or anyone else, what is the crime in encouraging members of Congress not to certify the election results ?

Maybe unethical, unpatriotic but illegal ?
Last edited by old salt on Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Peter Brown »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:16 pm
ggait wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:07 pm
And that it will certainly be a circus, and a disaster if they fail.
Yup. If you come for the king, best not miss.

Which means 12-0, beyond a reasonable doubt. Even with videotape of the 5th Avenue shooting, hard to get that.
cult
Yes, a cult. But Trump isn't handing out laced Kool-Aid so the cult will live on.

Trumpnista aren't buying any of this. I happened to look at last night's FoxNews home page. The Hutchinson testimony was story #6. Right now the story is #20 and here's the headline: "Bombshell claims in Jan. 6 testimony disputed by ex_Trump officials, sources say."

They live in an alternative universe.



You don’t think that Democrats who hyperventilate about every ultimately-disproven Trump allegation don’t also live in an alternative universe?
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:38 pm Regarding prosecution of Trump, or anyone else, what is the crime in encouraging members of Congress not to certify the election results ?

Maybe unethical, unpatriotic but illegal ?

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Matnum PI »

old salt wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:38 pm ...what is the crime in encouraging members of Congress not to certify the election results ?...
Trump (and others) did much more than encouraging members of Congress not to certify the election results. And this hearing is far from over.
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