All Things China

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Brooklyn
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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

LaxFan2000 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:15 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:07 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:10 pm
Some of the most conservative people I have ever met are Mexicans - actual Mexican citizens. To take that step further, some of the most right wing people I have ever met are Mexicans as well.

Here in St Paul's West Side (officially called Riverview and known as Rio Vista by locals) the vast majority of Mexican-Americans are liberal Democrats. No CONservatives here. 👍
You live in one of the bluest states in the US. Nothing more needed to be said.

Minnesota is "purple". Just about as many Repukes as Democrats. State Senate majority is Puke.
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HooDat
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Re: All Things China

Post by HooDat »

LaxFan2000 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:15 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:07 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:10 pm
Some of the most conservative people I have ever met are Mexicans - actual Mexican citizens. To take that step further, some of the most right wing people I have ever met are Mexicans as well.

Here in St Paul's West Side (officially called Riverview and known as Rio Vista by locals) the vast majority of Mexican-Americans are liberal Democrats. No CONservatives here. 👍
You live in one of the bluest states in the US. Nothing more needed to be said.
:lol: exactly! I know several Mexican Americans who's level of "conservatism" (as Brooklyn would use the word in all its potential derogatory interpretations) makes me more than a little uncomfortable......
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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Farfromgeneva
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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:00 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:26 pm but you’ve lost focus of what the MAGA movement believes in and wants. Not a political party.
Americans of Mexican decent obviously come in all shapes and flavors. I am not sure MAGA has "matured" enough to have a very firm definition in anyone's mind. For some, MAGA is anything Trump says. For others it is a pseudonym for racist or fascist. I think there is a growing part of the GOP that wants to see MAGA come to represent a globalism suspicious, state's rights, fundamental interpretation of the Constitution, small business and family focused movement. I would venture to say (in the spirit of my opening line) that Mexican Americans fall into all three categories, but I was focused on the last.
These parts were core to the Kemp/Buckley Republicans of 25yrs ago.

MAGAs been around like a decade now. It’s evolved out of the tea party: we know what it is at this point .

Is suspicious the right word you want on globalism? I’d think “empirically skeptical” is a better way to describe it, but suspicious may be the attitude despite it implying a starting baseline position of distrust.

And of course “family” is strictly defined by this when saying family focused. All my sisters theatre and non profit friends in the Bay Area or one of my beat friend’s USAid and NGO crowd all know as many or more families comprised to two female or male parents than otherwise which they would view as a family as much as mom, dad and capex absorbing kids.

So the only major change from before is really in suspicion of globalism. But you think most of them evaluate globalism like you do, or they look at different looking people and then look at their jobless community and household and go “f**k those [ insert term of choose to slander ace/origin of choice ]?

And Trumps words were intentionally feeding into the xenophobic crowd that you surely agree so those two are basically the same regardless of original thought or intent.
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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:00 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:26 pm but you’ve lost focus of what the MAGA movement believes in and wants. Not a political party.
Americans of Mexican decent obviously come in all shapes and flavors. I am not sure MAGA has "matured" enough to have a very firm definition in anyone's mind. For some, MAGA is anything Trump says. For others it is a pseudonym for racist or fascist. I think there is a growing part of the GOP that wants to see MAGA come to represent a globalism suspicious, state's rights, fundamental interpretation of the Constitution, small business and family focused movement. I would venture to say (in the spirit of my opening line) that Mexican Americans fall into all three categories, but I was focused on the last.
I understand that many of Mexican heritage are conservative but that still doesn’t make them part of the team as well.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
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HooDat
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Re: All Things China

Post by HooDat »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:43 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:00 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:26 pm but you’ve lost focus of what the MAGA movement believes in and wants. Not a political party.
Americans of Mexican decent obviously come in all shapes and flavors. I am not sure MAGA has "matured" enough to have a very firm definition in anyone's mind. For some, MAGA is anything Trump says. For others it is a pseudonym for racist or fascist. I think there is a growing part of the GOP that wants to see MAGA come to represent a globalism suspicious, state's rights, fundamental interpretation of the Constitution, small business and family focused movement. I would venture to say (in the spirit of my opening line) that Mexican Americans fall into all three categories, but I was focused on the last.
I understand that many of Mexican heritage are conservative but that still doesn’t make them part of the team as well.
You must see the world through a far more race based lens than I do.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:58 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:43 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:00 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:26 pm but you’ve lost focus of what the MAGA movement believes in and wants. Not a political party.
Americans of Mexican decent obviously come in all shapes and flavors. I am not sure MAGA has "matured" enough to have a very firm definition in anyone's mind. For some, MAGA is anything Trump says. For others it is a pseudonym for racist or fascist. I think there is a growing part of the GOP that wants to see MAGA come to represent a globalism suspicious, state's rights, fundamental interpretation of the Constitution, small business and family focused movement. I would venture to say (in the spirit of my opening line) that Mexican Americans fall into all three categories, but I was focused on the last.
I understand that many of Mexican heritage are conservative but that still doesn’t make them part of the team as well.
You must see the world through a far more race based lens than I do.
How so? What makes you conclude that? I’m talking about the behavior fo a cohort towards Mexican Americans. Not myself, that isn’t my view but it’s the view I’ve heard and seen projected and stated in primary source many many times. I would include large chunks of my paternal family in that group, all in WNY or SE PA basically.

Kind of feels like a cheap shot too but I’m not going to be a biyach about it like some because I’m actually comfortable with myself unlike some folks running around here (not you). Comes across as a cheap heuristic.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
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Re: All Things China

Post by HooDat »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:02 pmKind of feels like a cheap shot too but I’m not going to be a biyach about it like some because I’m actually comfortable with myself unlike some folks running around here (not you). Comes across as a cheap heuristic.
Not trying to ruffle your feathers. You just seem to keep bringing everything down to a perception that race and/or racism is what is driving people's politics. In my life I see little to none of that.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:02 pmKind of feels like a cheap shot too but I’m not going to be a biyach about it like some because I’m actually comfortable with myself unlike some folks running around here (not you). Comes across as a cheap heuristic.
Not trying to ruffle your feathers. You just seem to keep bringing everything down to a perception that race and/or racism is what is driving people's politics. In my life I see little to none of that.

Fair enough but I do see others motivated by that. Sometimes rather explicitly. Race has only driven political views for the entirety of human history so it’s hard to believe we’ve solved that.

But I think you’ll find that my views are much more driven by economics than anything else. Heck I represent the posts on the financial thread almost as much as fatty owned that the taats thread.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
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Re: All Things China

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:54 pm
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm Given the size of China, was it really a good idea by the American politicians while in a head-lock by American business interests to build such a country into one of the strongest economies and therefore allowing it to become the most menacing?
Without question, given the other options available.

What path would you have chosen? Cold War and isolation?
I think you may have missed the much larger question ardilla was asking, which TLD (supposedly my alter ego main account) responded with a sarcastic yet appropriate response.

We gave China a golden goose decades ago . Our manufacturing capacity and other supply chain infrastructure to save a few bucks and improve profits. They had a billion people in 1980. They did things cheaper and we didn't care how. Made us a few bucks at the expense of national security and independence.

This was long before we had to choose a Cold War and isolation.

Now we're shifting manufacturing to India and other countries India plenty of issues, but you only need 2-3 decades of government centralization to turn it into a global superpower.
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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:38 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:54 pm
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm Given the size of China, was it really a good idea by the American politicians while in a head-lock by American business interests to build such a country into one of the strongest economies and therefore allowing it to become the most menacing?
Without question, given the other options available.

What path would you have chosen? Cold War and isolation?
I think you may have missed the much larger question ardilla was asking, which TLD (supposedly my alter ego main account) responded with a sarcastic yet appropriate response.

We gave China a golden goose decades ago . Our manufacturing capacity and other supply chain infrastructure to save a few bucks and improve profits. They had a billion people in 1980. They did things cheaper and we didn't care how. Made us a few bucks at the expense of national security and independence.
Yes. But this was not a governmental choice. This was a free market choice. Our companies can make chips and components domestically. They CHOSE not to do that for the last 30 or so years, in the absence of government intervention.

So the obvious question is: what's was (and now is) the alternative? And the obvious answer is: Government intervention to somehow steer production and trade away from China in the name of military security. A Cold War.

That's it. That's the option.
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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:38 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:54 pm
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm Given the size of China, was it really a good idea by the American politicians while in a head-lock by American business interests to build such a country into one of the strongest economies and therefore allowing it to become the most menacing?
Without question, given the other options available.

What path would you have chosen? Cold War and isolation?
I think you may have missed the much larger question ardilla was asking, which TLD (supposedly my alter ego main account) responded with a sarcastic yet appropriate response.

We gave China a golden goose decades ago . Our manufacturing capacity and other supply chain infrastructure to save a few bucks and improve profits. They had a billion people in 1980. They did things cheaper and we didn't care how. Made us a few bucks at the expense of national security and independence.

This was long before we had to choose a Cold War and isolation.

Now we're shifting manufacturing to India and other countries India plenty of issues, but you only need 2-3 decades of government centralization to turn it into a global superpower.
https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/04/02/c ... /id=56088/
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:38 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:38 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:54 pm
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm Given the size of China, was it really a good idea by the American politicians while in a head-lock by American business interests to build such a country into one of the strongest economies and therefore allowing it to become the most menacing?
Without question, given the other options available.

What path would you have chosen? Cold War and isolation?
I think you may have missed the much larger question ardilla was asking, which TLD (supposedly my alter ego main account) responded with a sarcastic yet appropriate response.

We gave China a golden goose decades ago . Our manufacturing capacity and other supply chain infrastructure to save a few bucks and improve profits. They had a billion people in 1980. They did things cheaper and we didn't care how. Made us a few bucks at the expense of national security and independence.
Yes. But this was not a governmental choice. This was a free market choice. Our companies can make chips and components domestically. They CHOSE not to do that for the last 30 or so years, in the absence of government intervention.

So the obvious question is: what's was (and now is) the alternative? And the obvious answer is: Government intervention to somehow steer production and trade away from China in the name of military security. A Cold War.

That's it. That's the option.
“Insourcing” (such a dumb term) has been going on for close to a decade now. Companies like Delta have pulled back call centers Etc. So it can happen organically.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:28 am “Insourcing” (such a dumb term) has been going on for close to a decade now. Companies like Delta have pulled back call centers Etc. So it can happen organically.
It absolutely CAN happen, I agree. It's a choice made by overpaid CEO's who are unable to think long term, and don't have even a shred of patriotism.
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Re: All Things China

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

a fan wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:40 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:28 am “Insourcing” (such a dumb term) has been going on for close to a decade now. Companies like Delta have pulled back call centers Etc. So it can happen organically.
It absolutely CAN happen, I agree. It's a choice made by overpaid CEO's who are unable to think long term, and don't have even a shred of patriotism.
or...have considered their duty to be to maximize returns to shareholders...it's only recently that CEO's have been getting the message that there are many more stakeholders than simply shareholders.

Not that surprisingly, the (supposedly conservative) hypocrites among us decry this more holistic consideration, saying that CEO's should solely focus on shareholder returns. And then are upset when CEO's do so...because those more holistic concerns include caring about what customers, employees, government, etc consider to be priorities...and those don't always fit "conservative" "social" values.

As an actual conservative, small c, I don't think there needs to be any such conflict when considered through a longer term prism...but that's where we need to challenge our various measurement and incentives...
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Re: All Things China

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:48 pm Pardon me if I don't believe that America----or you----are behaving as if China is our enemy. Looks to me like they are our best trading and educational partner, Doc.

Do we issue more Student Visas to any other Nation than China, Doc? Nope. Now why would we do that if China was our enemy?

And why don't YOU care that we're educating Chinese students at Hopkins, Doc? Putting Chinese students in front of American students, Doc? Now why would you support that if you thought China was our enemy, Doc?

Wake me up when you and your fellow Pentagon wonks get serious about this so called "enemy" of yours.....
From my perspective, the Pentagon wonks are very serious about this.

I don't want to get drawn down one of your rabbit holes, but I just want to clarify what you (afan) believe.

(1) Do you doubt that China is threatening to invade Taiwan militarily if they cannot gain control economically & politically, as they have in Hong Kong ?

(2) ...or do you just not care enough about that probability to structure & deploy our military in a way that creates a strategic ambiguity about whether or not we will help defend Taiwan militarily if invaded ?

(3) Do you believe that we can continue trade, tech sharing & shared development with China, as we have, regardless of their actions vis-a-vis Taiwan, the South China Sea, the WPac region, our Asis-Pacific allies & their imperialism, both military & economic ?
Last edited by old salt on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Things China

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:38 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:38 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:54 pm
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm Given the size of China, was it really a good idea by the American politicians while in a head-lock by American business interests to build such a country into one of the strongest economies and therefore allowing it to become the most menacing?
Without question, given the other options available.

What path would you have chosen? Cold War and isolation?
I think you may have missed the much larger question ardilla was asking, which TLD (supposedly my alter ego main account) responded with a sarcastic yet appropriate response.

We gave China a golden goose decades ago . Our manufacturing capacity and other supply chain infrastructure to save a few bucks and improve profits. They had a billion people in 1980. They did things cheaper and we didn't care how. Made us a few bucks at the expense of national security and independence.
Yes. But this was not a governmental choice. This was a free market choice. Our companies can make chips and components domestically. They CHOSE not to do that for the last 30 or so years, in the absence of government intervention.

So the obvious question is: what's was (and now is) the alternative? And the obvious answer is: Government intervention to somehow steer production and trade away from China in the name of military security. A Cold War.

That's it. That's the option.
afan -- which option do you choose ?
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things China

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

I don't think this is actually a binary situation.

There are benefits to the US and to the world of an ongoing economic and cultural relationship with China, even as they move more or less towards to aggressiveness, as their internal politics evolve (they have evolved very positively over the last 4 decades, but have recently backslid alarmingly). We can hope that they evolve in ways that are more congruent or at least compatible with our own values, but that's definitely not a sure thing...though at least more likely through ongoing cultural and economic exchange than without.

Whether that relationship will ultimately be sufficient deterrent to hot conflict with China, it is also clearly prudent to take various steps to deter such with hard power, not just the soft power referenced above.

Calibrating these is a major challenge, but I think the rhetoric of binary choice gets in the way of the most effective policy posture.

On the particular economic question that was posed, I don't think we need to go to a "Cold War" rhetoric to recognize that certain industries have such strategic importance in extreme (hot war) situations that we should be especially careful with them, given that the history of the world to date suggests that such extreme situations are likely to occur again...that doesn't mean cutting off trade, it means being more deliberate as a government, not entirely laissez faire.

Thus, the CHIPS act should have had very strong bipartisan support.
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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:12 am I don't think this is actually a binary situation.

There are benefits to the US and to the world of an ongoing economic and cultural relationship with China, even as they move more or less towards to aggressiveness, as their internal politics evolve (they have evolved very positively over the last 4 decades, but have recently backslid alarmingly). We can hope that they evolve in ways that are more congruent or at least compatible with our own values, but that's definitely not a sure thing...though at least more likely through ongoing cultural and economic exchange than without.

Whether that relationship will ultimately be sufficient deterrent to hot conflict with China, it is also clearly prudent to take various steps to deter such with hard power, not just the soft power referenced above.

Calibrating these is a major challenge, but I think the rhetoric of binary choice gets in the way of the most effective policy posture.

On the particular economic question that was posed, I don't think we need to go to a "Cold War" rhetoric to recognize that certain industries have such strategic importance in extreme (hot war) situations that we should be especially careful with them, given that the history of the world to date suggests that such extreme situations are likely to occur again...that doesn't mean cutting off trade, it means being more deliberate as a government, not entirely laissez faire.

Thus, the CHIPS act should have had very strong bipartisan support.
Rarely is.

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Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
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See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 am From my perspective, the Pentagon wonks are very serious about this.
Then why is China our third largest Trading Partner? That's your idea of a 'serious'? issue. It sure isn't mine.
old salt wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 am I don't want to get drawn down one of your rabbit holes
You mean where we actually discuss an idea or issue thoroughly? Perish the thought.
old salt wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 am (1) Do you doubt that China is threatening to invade Taiwan militarily if they cannot gain control economically & politically, as they have in Hong Kong ?
Yep. I also believe that Taiwan is a huge trading partner for China, and a cash register they'd rather not ruin. They know that if they invade, it will cost them long term money. It's the ONLY reason they don't invade.
old salt wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 am (2) ...or do you just not care enough about that probability to structure & deploy our military in a way that creates a strategic ambiguity about whether or not we will help defend Taiwan militarily if invaded ?
I asked you months ago if the US is responsible for Taiwan. You said no. Did you change your mind?
old salt wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 am (3) Do you believe that we can continue trade, tech sharing & shared development with China, as we have, regardless of their actions vis-a-vis Taiwan, the South China Sea, the WPac region, our Asis-Pacific allies & their imperialism, both military & economic ?
I believe that you and your fellow Republicans are full of sh(t, and are the party that has been pushing for OPEN trade with China (and everyone else) since Reagan arrived. This policy, coupled with union busting and deregulation has eviscerated the US middle class, and destroyed our nation. So when I hear lame, pathetical calls about "standing up to China", I know a bunch of lies are soon to follow.

I already told you what I'd do about China when Trump announced his fake trade war.

1. I'd blow a few billion on US trade groups, sending them all over the globe, looking for new trading partners
2. I'd put the UK at the top of the list....Brexit. All sorts of opportunities there.
3. I'd move to free tuition/training for US workers in key areas like programming, engineering, medicine, etc.
4. I'd work to return unions to their prominence
5. I'd move to single payer government health care.
6. I'd add restrictions to the amount of importations of goods...the mild protectionism that the EU uses. It ain't perfect, but most EU companies haven't gutted their middle class using the above, so.....worth a try, at the very least.

#3&5 would FINALLY put us workers and businesses on a level playing field with all other 1st world nations.

And this is just the short list items.
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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:12 am I don't think this is actually a binary situation.
Sure it is. You either have the government step in to curtail trade with China BASED on the belief that they are our enemy, or you don't.

The part that isn't binary is----how much does the Government step in? I agree with you and FFG here.
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