All Things China

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DocBarrister
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Re: All Things China

Post by DocBarrister »

old salt wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:38 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:44 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:22 pm What could Taiwan possibly get, short of nukes, that would keep China from invading with....what's the count, again? Oh, right....2.8 million soldiers?

China could send those troops in with nothing but brass knuckles....and they'd STILL win that battle.

But they haven't. Tell me why, since you have this all figured out.
“But they haven't. ”

They don’t have the troop transports. And do they have the stomach for the losses an invasion would yield? Or do you think they will achieve victory via a governmental change.
What could Taiwan get that would keep China from invading, you ask ?

The HIMARS, Harpoon missile coastal defense batteries, & re-manufactured F-16's for which they have already contracted & (alas) will have to wait years for delivery. The same stuff we are now giving Ukraine to repel the Russian invaders. It's a long swim for 2.8 million Chinese soldiers.
Agree with this. Much of this is part of the porcupine strategy, although fighter jets are a different matter.

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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

DocBarrister wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:33 pm
I’m done arguing with you on this.

You clearly have a disagreement with a couple of dozen governments representing billions of people around the world.

Since you know better, take the argument up with them. I’m sure they will give your opinions the attention they deserve.

DocBarrister
:lol: Appeal to authority, Doc? Can't evaluate ideas on their own. Dude---do you not remember how many countries signed on to invade Kuwait with your man Bush? And you're telling me here that it's stupid to question world leader's decisions? :lol: Yeah, okay. You get that this means you support the 1st Gulf War, right?


I make salient points that you can't refute...and you run away to mommy rather than admit that I have a point?

You have zero understanding of American history, and plainly don't understand the concept of a "self fulfilling prophecy".

If you did? You'd tell me that yes, it's a concern that these countries provoke war with China, simply because they change their behaviors because they are PREDICTING that China will invade Taiwan.

But by all means, keep arming Taiwan and actively practicing GroupThink, Doc. You're all set.
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Brooklyn
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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

DocBarrister wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:36 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:04 pm The entire world should demand that Taiwan take a vote to join with China once again. It had no right to secede in the first place. As I've mentioned before, the world stood by and made this demand of Catalonia in its secession bid from Falangist Spain. It should do the same here. There simply is no excuse for pretending that they are two different countries.
You don’t know your history and you clearly do not understand the current political trend in Taiwan.

As a matter of history, Taiwan never “seceded” from China. Taiwan was forcibly annexed by the Qing Empire centuries ago. Mainland Chinese started to populate the island, facilitated to some extent by European colonies (e.g., the Dutch). The Communist regime on the mainland has never controlled Taiwan. NEVER.

As for the present day, the population on Taiwan that view themselves as primarily “Chinese” is the older population who may have sought refuge after fleeing the island seven decades ago. Many younger Taiwanese simply view themselves as Taiwanese. Their ties to the mainland, if any, may be generations (or even centuries) old … a fading attachment.

Indeed, since Taiwan is a democracy, they have essentially held a referendum on whether they wanted closer ties with China. The Democratic Progressive Party, which favors maintaining Taiwan as a separate political entity, has controlled the presidency for 16 of the past 24 years, including the last six. Younger generations do not favor unifying with China, especially after they have seen the oppression of Hong Kong.

By a nearly two-to-one margin, people in Taiwan rate the U.S. more favorably than mainland China. There is widespread support for increased economic and political ties with Washington; enthusiasm for similar relations with mainland China is much more muted. Still, even as people are skeptical about closer political relations, half would embrace closer economic ties with mainland China. Younger people are particularly likely to support closer relations with the U.S., and they are less likely to embrace closer relations with China.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020 ... -negative/

A national referendum on unifying with China would almost certainly fail, and it’s only going to get worse as older (more pro-China) generations pass away and younger (more pro-Taiwanese) generations take their place. Indeed, this generational change is seen in the gradual decline of the once dominant Kuomintang Party and the rise of the Democratic Progressives.

The United States should not side with the cruel and dangerous authoritarian regime in Beijing over the flourishing democracy on Taiwan.

I would think everyone had learned that appeasement of dangerous authoritarian regimes does not ensure “peace in our time,” but I guess that’s expecting too much.

DocBarrister :?


''You don’t know your history '' --- Horseshttt, buddy.

The colonialist Dutch invaded Taiwan but were forced out by the mainland Chinese government who occupied the island for centuries. In 1949 dictator Chiang Kai Chek invaded and proclaimed the island for himself. 97% of the population is Han Chinese which means there is no ethnic difference between them and the people of Beijing. The island belongs to China which has every right to take back what is theirs.

By contrast, Catalonia was an independent country for centuries before it was invaded by both France and Spain. Spain won out in the end. Catalonians practice democracy and want their freedom. Yet the world refuses to recognize it and sides with Falangist Madrid. Double standards much?

As for appeasement of dangerous authoritarian regimes, yes the world still has a few lessons to learn about that. Its refusal to take corrective actions against the imperialistic terrorists of Republican controlled Washington DC during the Bush regimes is proof of that.
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Re: All Things China

Post by DocBarrister »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:10 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:33 pm
I’m done arguing with you on this.

You clearly have a disagreement with a couple of dozen governments representing billions of people around the world.

Since you know better, take the argument up with them. I’m sure they will give your opinions the attention they deserve.

DocBarrister
:lol: Appeal to authority, Doc? Can't evaluate ideas on their own. Dude---do you not remember how many countries signed on to invade Kuwait with your man Bush? And you're telling me here that it's stupid to question world leader's decisions? :lol: Yeah, okay. You get that this means you support the 1st Gulf War, right?


I make salient points that you can't refute...and you run away to mommy rather than admit that I have a point?

You have zero understanding of American history, and plainly don't understand the concept of a "self fulfilling prophecy".

If you did? You'd tell me that yes, it's a concern that these countries provoke war with China, simply because they change their behaviors because they are PREDICTING that China will invade Taiwan.

But by all means, keep arming Taiwan and actively practicing GroupThink, Doc. You're all set.
You have lost all credibility on this issue.

If you want to study up on the subject and reassess, I would recommend that.

If you want to continue spewing your own personal BS, that’s fine, too.

Just not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks he knows better than an entire region of nations.

Almost Trumpian in the level of delusion.

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Re: All Things China

Post by DocBarrister »

Brooklyn wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:54 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:36 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:04 pm The entire world should demand that Taiwan take a vote to join with China once again. It had no right to secede in the first place. As I've mentioned before, the world stood by and made this demand of Catalonia in its secession bid from Falangist Spain. It should do the same here. There simply is no excuse for pretending that they are two different countries.
You don’t know your history and you clearly do not understand the current political trend in Taiwan.

As a matter of history, Taiwan never “seceded” from China. Taiwan was forcibly annexed by the Qing Empire centuries ago. Mainland Chinese started to populate the island, facilitated to some extent by European colonies (e.g., the Dutch). The Communist regime on the mainland has never controlled Taiwan. NEVER.

As for the present day, the population on Taiwan that view themselves as primarily “Chinese” is the older population who may have sought refuge after fleeing the island seven decades ago. Many younger Taiwanese simply view themselves as Taiwanese. Their ties to the mainland, if any, may be generations (or even centuries) old … a fading attachment.

Indeed, since Taiwan is a democracy, they have essentially held a referendum on whether they wanted closer ties with China. The Democratic Progressive Party, which favors maintaining Taiwan as a separate political entity, has controlled the presidency for 16 of the past 24 years, including the last six. Younger generations do not favor unifying with China, especially after they have seen the oppression of Hong Kong.

By a nearly two-to-one margin, people in Taiwan rate the U.S. more favorably than mainland China. There is widespread support for increased economic and political ties with Washington; enthusiasm for similar relations with mainland China is much more muted. Still, even as people are skeptical about closer political relations, half would embrace closer economic ties with mainland China. Younger people are particularly likely to support closer relations with the U.S., and they are less likely to embrace closer relations with China.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020 ... -negative/

A national referendum on unifying with China would almost certainly fail, and it’s only going to get worse as older (more pro-China) generations pass away and younger (more pro-Taiwanese) generations take their place. Indeed, this generational change is seen in the gradual decline of the once dominant Kuomintang Party and the rise of the Democratic Progressives.

The United States should not side with the cruel and dangerous authoritarian regime in Beijing over the flourishing democracy on Taiwan.

I would think everyone had learned that appeasement of dangerous authoritarian regimes does not ensure “peace in our time,” but I guess that’s expecting too much.

DocBarrister :?


''You don’t know your history '' --- Horseshttt, buddy.

The colonialist Dutch invaded Taiwan but were forced out by the mainland Chinese government who occupied the island for centuries. In 1949 dictator Chiang Kai Chek invaded and proclaimed the island for himself. 97% of the population is Han Chinese which means there is no ethnic difference between them and the people of Beijing. The island belongs to China which has every right to take back what is theirs.

By contrast, Catalonia was an independent country for centuries before it was invaded by both France and Spain. Spain won out in the end. Catalonians practice democracy and want their freedom. Yet the world refuses to recognize it and sides with Falangist Madrid. Double standards much?

As for appeasement of dangerous authoritarian regimes, yes the world still has a few lessons to learn about that. Its refusal to take corrective actions against the imperialistic terrorists of Republican controlled Washington DC during the Bush regimes is proof of that.
Except nearly 90% of the island’s population identifies as “Taiwanese” and the vast majority are willing to fight to maintain their independence from China.

Nearly 90 percent of the public identify themselves as Taiwanese and about two-thirds said they are willing to fight for the country in case of war, a survey released yesterday by the Taiwan New Constitution Foundation showed.

The question about national identity showed that 89.9 percent identify themselves as Taiwanese and 4.6 percent as Chinese, while 1 percent consider themselves to be both, the poll showed.


https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/ ... 2003762406

Or … do your views matter more than theirs?

I see that patronizing colonial attitudes remain strong on this forum.

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Re: All Things China

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DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:14 am Just not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks he knows better than an entire region of nations.
:lol: DocB......agrees with Bush's Coalition of the willing and the First Gulf War. Who would have thought?

Awesome.

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Boy Doc, that's quite a list of countries who agreed to go to war in Kuwait and pulverized Saddam's army, leaving a massive power void in the region (gee, who could have seen that coming?), which led to even more instability in the region. How's Syria doin' these days, Doc? Or how about Iran and Iraq while we're at it? Whoops.

But sure Doc, It's simply not possible that a long list of countries signing on for policies could possibly be wrong, or make bad choices. :lol:

Have a great week, Doc. You're all set. :lol: ;)
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Re: All Things China

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:10 pm :lol: Appeal to authority, Doc? Can't evaluate ideas on their own. Dude---do you not remember how many countries signed on to invade Kuwait with your man Bush? And you're telling me here that it's stupid to question world leader's decisions? :lol: Yeah, okay. You get that this means you support the 1st Gulf War, right?
No it does not. The master of the false analogy strikes again.
Helping Taiwan defend themselves against China is an entirely different situation than Desert Storm.
Tell him more about what he thinks. This really is impossible.
a fan wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:08 am
DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:14 am Just not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks he knows better than an entire region of nations.
:lol: DocB......agrees with Bush's Coalition of the willing and the First Gulf War. Who would have thought?

Awesome.

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Boy Doc, that's quite a list of countries who agreed to go to war in Kuwait and pulverized Saddam's army, leaving a massive power void in the region (gee, who could have seen that coming?), which led to even more instability in the region. How's Syria doin' these days, Doc? Or how about Iran and Iraq while we're at it? Whoops.

But sure Doc, It's simply not possible that a long list of countries signing on for policies could possibly be wrong, or make bad choices. :lol:

Have a great week, Doc. You're all set. :lol: ;)
Global strategy for toddlers.
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Re: All Things China

Post by PizzaSnake »

old salt wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:38 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:44 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:22 pm What could Taiwan possibly get, short of nukes, that would keep China from invading with....what's the count, again? Oh, right....2.8 million soldiers?

China could send those troops in with nothing but brass knuckles....and they'd STILL win that battle.

But they haven't. Tell me why, since you have this all figured out.
“But they haven't. ”

They don’t have the troop transports. And do they have the stomach for the losses an invasion would yield? Or do you think they will achieve victory via a governmental change.
What could Taiwan get that would keep China from invading, you ask ?

The HIMARS, Harpoon missile coastal defense batteries, & re-manufactured F-16's for which they have already contracted & (alas) will have to wait years for delivery. The same stuff we are now giving Ukraine to repel the Russian invaders. It's a long swim for 2.8 million Chinese soldiers.
Thanks, but I didn’t ask. Times are changing and surface vessels will not “rule the waves”, ala Britannia, Spain, Dutch, etc.

As a former naval aviator you must know that projection of force is airborne, be it manned or unmanned. Next logical developments are autonomous kill platforms and low Earth orbital platforms. Won’t need explosives, just “nudge” some interstellar flotsam into a intercept and let gravity do the work. Now that would be shock and awe…
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:21 am
Except nearly 90% of the island’s population identifies as “Taiwanese” and the vast majority are willing to fight to maintain their independence from China.

Nearly 90 percent of the public identify themselves as Taiwanese and about two-thirds said they are willing to fight for the country in case of war, a survey released yesterday by the Taiwan New Constitution Foundation showed.

The question about national identity showed that 89.9 percent identify themselves as Taiwanese and 4.6 percent as Chinese, while 1 percent consider themselves to be both, the poll showed.


https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/ ... 2003762406

Or … do your views matter more than theirs?

I see that patronizing colonial attitudes remain strong on this forum.

DocBarrister :?

Those same people who conveniently identify themselves as Taiwanese are Han and they speak Mandarin just like the mainlanders. This because there is no ethnic distinction between them. By contrast, the people of Catalonia are a distinct ethnicity and have their own language which is closer to the Occitan language of southern France than to the language spoken in Falangist Madrid. No surprise that certain forum right wingers are so sympathetic towards Falangists since its ideals correspond with those of their Republican party.
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Re: All Things China

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:08 am
DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:14 am Just not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks he knows better than an entire region of nations.
:lol: DocB......agrees with Bush's Coalition of the willing and the First Gulf War. Who would have thought?

Awesome.

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Boy Doc, that's quite a list of countries who agreed to go to war in Kuwait and pulverized Saddam's army, leaving a massive power void in the region (gee, who could have seen that coming?), which led to even more instability in the region. How's Syria doin' these days, Doc? Or how about Iran and Iraq while we're at it? Whoops.

But sure Doc, It's simply not possible that a long list of countries signing on for policies could possibly be wrong, or make bad choices. :lol:

Have a great week, Doc. You're all set. :lol: ;)
Don’t forget the key member of the coalition being Stankonia dropping Bombs over Baghdad!

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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

a fan wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:08 am
DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:14 am Just not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks he knows better than an entire region of nations.
:lol: DocB......agrees with Bush's Coalition of the willing and the First Gulf War. Who would have thought?

Awesome.

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Boy Doc, that's quite a list of countries who agreed to go to war in Kuwait and pulverized Saddam's army, leaving a massive power void in the region (gee, who could have seen that coming?), which led to even more instability in the region. How's Syria doin' these days, Doc? Or how about Iran and Iraq while we're at it? Whoops.

But sure Doc, It's simply not possible that a long list of countries signing on for policies could possibly be wrong, or make bad choices. :lol:

Have a great week, Doc. You're all set. :lol: ;)


So, our Doc bought into Bush's war of imperialistic terrorist colonialism in the Middle East? And what an impressive list of supporters on that roster of do gooders:

✱ Falangist Spain whose leadership supported Hitler and Mussolini and which occupies Catalonia.
✱ Eritrea-Ethiopia whose border battles have killed far more people than the Russia-Ukraine border conflict
✱ Turkey whose racist government killed far more Kurds than did Saddam
✱ and then there's pathetic Afghanistan


Yeah it sure was a brilliant move to destabilize the entire Middle East. Of course, stock owners in Halliburton and Bechtel among others happily approve since the war didn't cost them anything while it gave them billions in profits.
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Re: All Things China

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Brooklyn wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:35 am
DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:21 am
Except nearly 90% of the island’s population identifies as “Taiwanese” and the vast majority are willing to fight to maintain their independence from China.

Nearly 90 percent of the public identify themselves as Taiwanese and about two-thirds said they are willing to fight for the country in case of war, a survey released yesterday by the Taiwan New Constitution Foundation showed.

The question about national identity showed that 89.9 percent identify themselves as Taiwanese and 4.6 percent as Chinese, while 1 percent consider themselves to be both, the poll showed.


https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/ ... 2003762406

Or … do your views matter more than theirs?

I see that patronizing colonial attitudes remain strong on this forum.

DocBarrister :?

Those same people who conveniently identify themselves as Taiwanese are Han and they speak Mandarin just like the mainlanders. This because there is no ethnic distinction between them. By contrast, the people of Catalonia are a distinct ethnicity and have their own language which is closer to the Occitan language of southern France than to the language spoken in Falangist Madrid. No surprise that certain forum right wingers are so sympathetic towards Falangists since its ideals correspond with those of their Republican party.
"conveniently"???

China has never fully occupied Taiwan (though was de facto controlled by the Qing dynasty for over a hundred years pre 1800), has zero legal claim to it, and the implications of your argument is solely that because its inhabitants speak a language spoken elsewhere (among many languages in China) and have common ethnic roots as some Chinese, China should be able to militarily invade and take Taiwan for its own...

Want to argue about Catalonia?
Different argument, different fact pattern.

Should be a different thread.

Back to Taiwan: it is an independent, now democratic country and has been recognized as such for many decades....modern era. Its history is complicated, but the principle of maintaining support for democracies in contrast to authoritarianism is an important one (and one which we have a poor history of maintaining!).
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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:07 am
"conveniently"???

China has never fully occupied Taiwan (though was de facto controlled by the Qing dynasty for over a hundred years pre 1800), has zero legal claim to it, and the implications of your argument is solely that because its inhabitants speak a language spoken elsewhere (among many languages in China) and have common ethnic roots as some Chinese, China should be able to militarily invade and take Taiwan for its own...

Want to argue about Catalonia?
Different argument, different fact pattern.

Should be a different thread.

Back to Taiwan: it is an independent, now democratic country and has been recognized as such for many decades....modern era. Its history is complicated, but the principle of maintaining support for democracies in contrast to authoritarianism is an important one (and one which we have a poor history of maintaining!).

Convenient, indeed. There is no ethnic difference between Taiwanese and those from Beijing. Taiwan was administered by China's Qing dynasty from 1683 to 1895. The only reason why its rule ended was because of Japanese imperialism. At no point did Beijing ever consider that island as "independent" nor recognize its right to secede. Just because Western imperialists found Chiang Kai Chek to be a useful idiot doesn't give them license to walk away. China saved Taiwan from complete decimation at the hands of the Japanese imperialist fascists during WW II. The people of Taiwan today owe their lives to Beijing for saving their sorry butts from the invaders. It's time for them to give thanks and to return to their rightful government. If the people of Catalonia (a separate and distinct ethnicity who speak their own language) are held to this standard, then do the same for Taiwanese.
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Re: All Things China

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Fascinating how left wing you get on how to understand history.
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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:52 am
a fan wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:10 pm :lol: Appeal to authority, Doc? Can't evaluate ideas on their own. Dude---do you not remember how many countries signed on to invade Kuwait with your man Bush? And you're telling me here that it's stupid to question world leader's decisions? :lol: Yeah, okay. You get that this means you support the 1st Gulf War, right?
No it does not. The master of the false analogy strikes again.
Helping Taiwan defend themselves against China is an entirely different situation than Desert Storm.
Tell him more about what he thinks. This really is impossible.
Sigh. Yeah, I get that.

I was mocking Doc's assertion that all the countries that think China is an immediate threat to invade Taiwan can't possibly all be wrong.

I gave him a much longer list of countries that were CLEARLY wrong when it came to Kuwait and Saddam.

...his claim is obviously speculation, and nothing more.
old salt wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:52 am Global strategy for toddlers.
Want my strategy if I'm Xi, and I really want control of Taiwan?

You've forgotten that China is Taiwan's biggest trading partner, and Chinese citizens come and go to Taiwan as they please. And get resident permits every day.

-send a few thousand Chinese Intel/soldiers to Taiwan to start businesses. This has already happened, obviously, because: espionage.
-start killing judges and political leaders.
-install puppets in positions of power using said fake businesses that "just happen" to have sweet trade deals with Mainland China.

Basically, run the CIA playbook.

No invasion needed. US armaments are now owned by Xi puppets.
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Re: All Things China

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

I'm clearly confused...did not Saddam invade Kuwait?
Prompting the wide response.
They invaded Aug 2nd 1990, US-led coalition attacked in response Jan 17 1991.

Did not Desert Storm end swiftly, 5 weeks later, with the decimation of much of Iraq's military and removal from Kuwait?

Exactly what did the coalition of 35 nations "get wrong"?

I understand the critique of the later conflict, but not sure what is being criticized on this one.
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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm I'm clearly confused...did not Saddam invade Kuwait?
Prompting the wide response.
They invaded Aug 2nd 1990, US-led coalition attacked in response Jan 17 1991.

Did not Desert Storm end swiftly, 5 weeks later, with the decimation of much of Iraq's military and removal from Kuwait?

Exactly what did the coalition of 35 nations "get wrong"?

I understand the critique of the later conflict, but not sure what is being criticized on this one.


It's the oil. While Kuwait's elites were seen dancing in Cairo discos the West spent billions in that invasion in order to preserve its access to oil. Meantime when Indonesia invaded East Timor and killed far more people the world looked the other way. Why? No oil there.
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Re: All Things China

Post by Brooklyn »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:23 pm Fascinating how left wing you get on how to understand history.

There is no left wing or right wing in the word history. Just the truth.
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Re: All Things China

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm I'm clearly confused...did not Saddam invade Kuwait?
Prompting the wide response.
They invaded Aug 2nd 1990, US-led coalition attacked in response Jan 17 1991.

Did not Desert Storm end swiftly, 5 weeks later, with the decimation of much of Iraq's military and removal from Kuwait?

Exactly what did the coalition of 35 nations "get wrong"?
You left out a ton of details

-We didn't have a treaty with Kuwait. Not our problem
-We are actually the idiots who funded and armed, and trained Saddam in the first place, yet another idiotic move
- If all the countries were aligned? They could have all simply embargoed Iraq and Kuwait.

This decision was followed by the moronic decision to play cop to the entirety of the Middle East. We put bases all over the region.

And we CHOSE to play referee in this region, trying to manage 1000 year old conflicts, with ZERO understanding about any of them.

Do I REALLY have to go over everything that followed this choice? 9/11? Iraq War. Afghanistan war. Blowing Trillions on pointless wars. All the US casualties. All the casualties from other countries. Bankrolling despots. And on and on and on. FFS, our bases are still open in this region.

All because we're Americans, so we have this massive army leftover from the Cold War (a hammer), and so we treat every single problem---imagined or not----as a nail. And send in troops/arms/money/etc. without thinking for even one second about the long term consequences of our decisions.
DocBarrister
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Re: All Things China

Post by DocBarrister »

Brooklyn wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:35 am
DocBarrister wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:21 am
Except nearly 90% of the island’s population identifies as “Taiwanese” and the vast majority are willing to fight to maintain their independence from China.

Nearly 90 percent of the public identify themselves as Taiwanese and about two-thirds said they are willing to fight for the country in case of war, a survey released yesterday by the Taiwan New Constitution Foundation showed.

The question about national identity showed that 89.9 percent identify themselves as Taiwanese and 4.6 percent as Chinese, while 1 percent consider themselves to be both, the poll showed.


https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/ ... 2003762406

Or … do your views matter more than theirs?

I see that patronizing colonial attitudes remain strong on this forum.

DocBarrister :?

Those same people who conveniently identify themselves as Taiwanese are Han and they speak Mandarin just like the mainlanders. This because there is no ethnic distinction between them. By contrast, the people of Catalonia are a distinct ethnicity and have their own language which is closer to the Occitan language of southern France than to the language spoken in Falangist Madrid. No surprise that certain forum right wingers are so sympathetic towards Falangists since its ideals correspond with those of their Republican party.
More colonial-type attitude … you obviously know what’s best for the Taiwanese, although the vast majority of Taiwanese disagree with you.

Wow. :? :roll:

Respectfully, your comments say more about you than the Taiwanese.

Why not leave this choice up to the good folks of Taiwan?

DocBarrister :?
@DocBarrister
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