Education post HS: College, Trade School, Military, ???

[youthathletics]

Thread to chat or share stories about post HS decisions for students and parents.


'Signing Day' recognizes high school seniors starting jobs, not college

"This is a celebration of students who are entering the workforce or post-secondary training with a plan," said Mac Beaton, director of Henrico Schools’ Department of Career and Technical Education, in a Facebook post. "They’ve chosen to maximize their high school opportunities for career training and industry certifications, with an eye on becoming successful and financially secure much earlier in life."

[Typical Lax Dad]

Thread to chat or share stories about post HS decisions for students and parents.


'Signing Day' recognizes high school seniors starting jobs, not college

"This is a celebration of students who are entering the workforce or post-secondary training with a plan," said Mac Beaton, director of Henrico Schools’ Department of Career and Technical Education, in a Facebook post. "They’ve chosen to maximize their high school opportunities for career training and industry certifications, with an eye on becoming successful and financially secure much earlier in life."

You have to be very careful with this. I have not looked but my guess is ALEC is behind getting this sort of messaging out (not from you). I am a big believer in college not being for everyone and there are different paths. Congratulations to these kids. My admin assistant's son has taken the same path. He may save for college down the road.

[HooDat]

Don't know who/what "ALEC" is, but

The understanding that it might not make sense to generate $100,000 in college debt to get a cubical jockey job that caps out at $50k a year is a winner with me!

[youthathletics]

TLD - help me understand why there is anything remotely worrisome about the message, regardless of who promotes it? And if it is ALEC or a local Democrat Rep. pro-union/tradesman group....is there a difference? Maybe I don't know enough about ALEC as you do?

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD - help me understand why there is anything remotely worrisome about the message, regardless of who promotes it? And if it is ALEC or a local Democrat Rep. pro-union/tradesman group....is there a difference? Maybe I don't know enough about ALEC as you do?

It's a good story. Nothing wrong with it. I am just leery of ALEC's mission. This story seems to be unaffiliated and is a good example of good people trying to do the right thing by promoting an alternative path. The German system is much that way. I would be leery of a blanket message targeted at a group.. this doesn't appear to be the case.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Don't know who/what "ALEC" is, but

The understanding that it might not make sense to generate $100,000 in college debt to get a cubical jockey job that caps out at $50k a year is a winner with me!

Nothing wrong with going to trade school of the military. I believe a national service program at 18 would be a wise investment in this country. Generally speaking, a four year college investment results in above market returns. College isn't for everyone but I would not discourage young people from pursuing a college degree.

http://thedataface.com/2017/12/education/college-roi

[frmanfan]

Here is the problem with college.

Not everyone is college material. In fact, most are not.

Approximately 80% of kids graduate from high school. So 8 in 10.

Recent numbers show about 62% of high school graduates go on to college. So 62% of 8 is about 50% of the original number, so 5 in 10 of the original kids go to college.

Of those who go to college, about half get a degree in six years. So 2.5 of the original 10 get a degree.

Not all get degrees in fields that are employable. (Insert your favorite joke line here, like "women's studies".)

We would better use our time and tax dollars fixing K-10 education, teaching reading/writing/'rithmatic, in other words, those skills that teach critical thinking and analyzing skills. Then, IMO, test kids to see which ones qualify to go on to grades 11-12, likely losing 1/4 to 1/3 of them, who could then go out and join the workforce instead of being forced to finish two years of school that doesn't interest them anyway. Beef up trade schools if you want to. Many jobs require people who can think and do, not college grads.

And focus especially on inner city schools, which are falling further behind every year as we focus on "college for all".

[Typical Lax Dad]

Here is the problem with college.

Not everyone is college material. In fact, most are not.

Approximately 80% of kids graduate from high school. So 8 in 10.

Recent numbers show about 62% of high school graduates go on to college. So 62% of 8 is about 50% of the original number, so 5 in 10 of the original kids go to college.

Of those who go to college, about half get a degree in six years. So 2.5 of the original 10 get a degree.

Not all get degrees in fields that are employable. (Insert your favorite joke line here, like "women's studies".)

We would better use our time and tax dollars fixing K-10 education, teaching reading/writing/'rithmatic, in other words, those skills that teach critical thinking and analyzing skills. Then, IMO, test kids to see which ones qualify to go on to grades 11-12, likely losing 1/4 to 1/3 of them, who could then go out and join the workforce instead of being forced to finish two years of school that doesn't interest them anyway. Beef up trade schools if you want to. Many jobs require people who can think and do, not college grads.

And focus especially on inner city schools, which are falling further behind every year as we focus on "college for all".

Before I got through your post I was going to add that we need to improve the input to get a better output. College isn’t for everyone but we should do a better job of preparing more kids for college because on average a four year college degree leads to better life results. College isn’t for everyone. My father did not have a college degree but he was much smarter than me and I have an advanced degree. He even taught himself how to read and write Sanskrit, for example.

[a fan]

We would better use our time and tax dollars fixing K-10 education, teaching reading/writing/'rithmatic, in other words, those skills that teach critical thinking and analyzing skills. Then, IMO, test kids to see which ones qualify to go on to grades 11-12, likely losing 1/4 to 1/3 of them, who could then go out and join the workforce instead of being forced to finish two years of school that doesn't interest them anyway. Beef up trade schools if you want to. Many jobs require people who can think and do, not college grads.

And focus especially on inner city schools, which are falling further behind every year as we focus on "college for all".

The German system, essentially. Parents on the right and left would fight it.

But I'd be all for it!

[frmanfan]

Parents and the teachers unions would all fight it. If 1/3 of the kids opted out of grades 11-12 lots of teachers would be out of work.

[HooDat]

Parents and the teachers unions would all fight it. If 1/3 of the kids opted out of grades 11-12 lots of teachers would be out of work.

not the shop teachers!

[Typical Lax Dad]

Parents and the teachers unions would all fight it. If 1/3 of the kids opted out of grades 11-12 lots of teachers would be out of work.

not the shop teachers!

We had a lot of kids that took "shop" in the middle of the country..... you could get a job right out of high school, buy a car and move out of your parents house..... then all the jobs left..... look at Flint....

Remembering when GM employed half of Flint, Michigan

In General Motors' heyday, Chevrolet and Buick were there, of course, but Flint (where GM was founded in 1908) also had other lesser-known GM "plants" that included AC Spark Plug, Fisher Body and Ternstedt, which employed my father for 40 years. At its peak in the 1970s when Flint's population was 190,000, GM employed 80,000 people in Flint alone. Now, the city has around 110,000 people. More than a third of them live in poverty, and, more shockingly, 18 percent have incomes of less than 50 percent of the poverty level. Fewer than 5,000 workers are desperately clinging to GM jobs in a couple of factories in Flint, according to The New York Times.

At family gatherings, talk among the men, to my disinterest, was invariably about "the shop," "the line" and "tool-and-die makers," a trade which I never understood. One brother-in-law, Art, had gotten a college degree and was white-collar at Buick. Another, Stan, worked for Oldsmobile in Lansing. My brother Jacques chose Ford in Detroit for his lifelong employment, but no one seemed to hold that against him.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Those damned democrats ruined Flint:

A hollow frame of a once affluent city

[frmanfan]

If the argument came from a position of strength it would be one thing. But it can't be.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... h-science/

One of the biggest cross-national tests is the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), which every three years measures reading ability, math and science literacy and other key skills among 15-year-olds in dozens of developed and developing countries. The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.

[Typical Lax Dad]

If the argument came from a position of strength it would be one thing. But it can't be.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... h-science/

One of the biggest cross-national tests is the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), which every three years measures reading ability, math and science literacy and other key skills among 15-year-olds in dozens of developed and developing countries. The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.

Absolutely. We are falling behind.

[youthathletics]

If the argument came from a position of strength it would be one thing. But it can't be.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... h-science/

One of the biggest cross-national tests is the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), which every three years measures reading ability, math and science literacy and other key skills among 15-year-olds in dozens of developed and developing countries. The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.

The margin of error is not too far off in those statistics.

I honestly believe we are over valuing reading, writing, and arithmetic. Please do not misunderstand that statement, that stuff matters....to a certain degree.

For instance, I have two kids, both now in college, both are exceptional at math, my oldest is dang near like Will in "Good Will Hunting", kid hardly ever studied, ever had homework, and only had one B his entire schooling and that was 89%. The youngest, can write a paper in no time flat and has had teachers ask us if they could submit his work to higher education for evaluation. Funny thing, when it comes to common sense, like changing a tire, putting oil in the lawnmower, something other than pushing a button or loading an app......hysterical just watching it. In sports they were both in the top tier of players. But the underlying piece that k-12 education misses out on is EI (Emotional Intelligence). For example, my youngest will challenge you at every turn, always questioning what you say, playing devils advocate, not being a conformist......and sadly, in school this is seldom, IF EVER tolerated. Finally, one teacher pulled him aside and asked him to come to her class during lunch where they could cut deeper into topics.

You do not need to know algebra to own a business, how to diagram a sentence to write a book, or even memorize the periodic table to be successful.

IMO - the parents are the key to success and people like Bill Gates, Lebron James, Deon Sanders, etc....that realize this and have started their own schools due in part to bad and/or absent parents, coupled with trying financial issues, are passing on this stress.

Not sure what the German School profile is like, but if afan likes it.....it must be pretty darned solid.

[a fan]

The basic premise behind German Education is: everyone's good at something. Let's find what that is, and get you a job doing that.

I had a German friend who said, paraphrasing: "the problem with American Education is that you act like everyone is going to be a doctor or lawyer. Someone needs to clean the streets."

The "present a rainbow of choices" path hasn't worked well for America as of late. But IMHO, the schools aren't the problem. The problem is parents/guardians/lack thereof.

And I don't know how to fix that problem, outside of sending kids away to school on a proper campus, and keep them away from their parents while they are learning.

Parents would never go for that.

[HooDat]

We had a lot of kids that took "shop" in the middle of the country..... you could get a job right out of high school, buy a car and move out of your parents house.....

I myself took a lot of shop in high school. I know I was the first and may have been the last kid in my high school who took both auto-mechanics II and AP History and AP English!

Had friends who went right to work, the mechanics I lost track of (maybe they own their own shops?) but the guys who learned how to run a printing press - many of them went straight to work and made very good money - including owning their own shops.

I have told my own kids - I would rather see them in a trade that leaves open the potential for entrepreneurship than a life consigned to perpetual middle-management. Mechanic, plumber, printer, carpenter, exterminator. They can all make a great life for themselves if they can own their own business.

I even hear that distillers can do ok...

[HooDat]

.... then all the jobs left..... look at Flint....

the loss of all those blue collar corporate jobs are what got us Trump (and almost got us the choice between Trump and Sanders. Your average blue collar worker looks at globalism and thinks they are getting the shaft. ... because they are. Consumers do great. Capital holders do great. Folks stuck in the "job transition" not so much....

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

Here is the problem with college.

Not everyone is college material. In fact, most are not.

Approximately 80% of kids graduate from high school. So 8 in 10.

Recent numbers show about 62% of high school graduates go on to college. So 62% of 8 is about 50% of the original number, so 5 in 10 of the original kids go to college.

Of those who go to college, about half get a degree in six years. So 2.5 of the original 10 get a degree.

Not all get degrees in fields that are employable. (Insert your favorite joke line here, like "women's studies".)

We would better use our time and tax dollars fixing K-10 education, teaching reading/writing/'rithmatic, in other words, those skills that teach critical thinking and analyzing skills. Then, IMO, test kids to see which ones qualify to go on to grades 11-12, likely losing 1/4 to 1/3 of them, who could then go out and join the workforce instead of being forced to finish two years of school that doesn't interest them anyway. Beef up trade schools if you want to. Many jobs require people who can think and do, not college grads.

And focus especially on inner city schools, which are falling further behind every year as we focus on "college for all".

Before I got through your post I was going to add that we need to improve the input to get a better output. College isn’t for everyone but we should do a better job of preparing more kids for college because on average a four year college degree leads to better life results. College isn’t for everyone. My father did not have a college degree but he was much smarter than me and I have an advanced degree. He even taught himself how to read and write Sanskrit, for example.

agreed.

personal story- i skipped core subjects like physics and anatomy to take... auto shop. in hindsight, sure, a terrible decision. i stunk of petrol each day in school and afterwards at practice. the students werent as savory. but i loved it and i use those skills today. just like hoodat (youre not alone!).

and also agreed with frmfan's comment about where are focus is. wont more college degrees just flood the market with unhappy overqualified 22 year olds, and entice colleges to raise tuition even higher, and then have the govt service the loans and grace periods, and then eventually pay for it all.

i like the idea of critical thinking. id rather teach someone how to analyze, how to think, how to teach themselves, rather than to merely regurgitate on a periodic examination. but that requires much effort and thought.