Long time coming…

HS Boys Lacrosse
smoova
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by smoova »

Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
OSVAlacrosse
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:19 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by OSVAlacrosse »

smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
smoova
Posts: 982
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by smoova »

OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
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HooDat
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by HooDat »

smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
None of this is all that new. It has been going on at least since the 2000's. If you were involved in club lacrosse and recruiting for kids graduating high school between 2010 and 2015 - you know it was a total $h!t-show. 8th grade commits, club coaches demanding kids play for them or get "black-balled", Pay to play (eg: high school coach favoring kids who play for his particular club team.

Believe it or not, it is actually a better now.

There was a short attempt to institute age-based clubs/tournaments/rec leagues - the closest it got to acceptance was probably around 2013? The unintended impacts were kids not being able to play with kids in their grade - people clearly cheated, but it is hard to tell esp in middle school where even the same aged boys can be vastly different in size and athleticism. College coaches wanted to see kids who were going to be in the same recruiting class playing together. Since they were committing 8th graders - well, you needed grade based leagues starting in middle school....
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:01 am
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
None of this is all that new. It has been going on at least since the 2000's. If you were involved in club lacrosse and recruiting for kids graduating high school between 2010 and 2015 - you know it was a total $h!t-show. 8th grade commits, club coaches demanding kids play for them or get "black-balled", Pay to play (eg: high school coach favoring kids who play for his particular club team.

Believe it or not, it is actually a better now.

There was a short attempt to institute age-based clubs/tournaments/rec leagues - the closest it got to acceptance was probably around 2013? The unintended impacts were kids not being able to play with kids in their grade - people clearly cheated, but it is hard to tell esp in middle school where even the same aged boys can be vastly different in size and athleticism. College coaches wanted to see kids who were going to be in the same recruiting class playing together. Since they were committing 8th graders - well, you needed grade based leagues starting in middle school....
Perhaps we need to remember that "what college coaches want" should never be what drives proper management of a sport. They "wanted" ER, despite their protestations that they did not. And that was an enormous mistake. It took a major groundswell of public opinion, and the leadership of the women's coaches, to finally address it. It should not have required that, as it was obviously a bad thing for the sport.

I agree that the situation is better without ER...and I think this move to age limit leagues is a great step.

But the nonsense of giving college coaches what they "want" in high school classes is a mistake, again. It's playing into laziness and ripe for manipulation. There should be max ages in various older leagues, tournaments. Kids who want to play 'up' against older players, to push their development, fine...(and the coaches will know from the roster data exactly who is what age). But no playing down, regardless of "class".

Schools, whether private or public, can create their rules that have nothing to do with classes, as is typical, but these recruiting tournaments should have age restrictions, just as other sports enforce.

I agree that mid 2000's and forward, the youth, middle school, high school club scene for profit seemed to be getting progressively out of hand. My guy grew up in that era and we did the rec scene as long as we could through 8th, and battled to keep things reasonably positive for all participants, but the pressure to get involved in a top club program as well and then exclusively, playing with and against, ever tougher competition became a priority in middle school....and that was a grad class of 2012, with the earliest college commitment happening in the winter of sophomore year...it got a heck of a lot worse after that!

The huge advantage of rec ball was that it was low cost, very little travel involved...club was an expensive jump, and though the Baltimore club scene didn't require much travel, few over nights relatively speaking, the club scene around the country involved regular airplane travel...crazy expensive.

And obviously, the expectations about scholarships and recruitment advantages of club ball were oversold to the gullible.

Last point, I think re OSV's comment: I don't see the club programs as actually incentivized to grow the sport. That just allows for more club programs, not much actual benefit to the existing ones...they get more rewarded by being able to charge more, not by having more competitors.
smoova
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by smoova »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:10 pm Perhaps we need to remember that "what college coaches want" should never be what drives proper management of a sport.
Bravo - I wondered if anyone would pick up on that (very careful) word selection. College coaches are depressingly consistent in "wanting" things that ultimately contract lacrosse participation nationwide.
Last edited by smoova on Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OSVAlacrosse
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by OSVAlacrosse »

Last point, I think re OSV's comment: I don't see the club programs as actually incentivized to grow the sport. That just allows for more club programs, not much actual benefit to the existing ones...they get more rewarded by being able to charge more, not by having more competitors.
.

This assumes that the club only takes a finite number of players. In fact they take as many as they can and just make more teams. Even a local club near us added three new teams. There is a True Lacrosse in every city they are like a Subway franchise. However, this is a small window where the growth of the sport is still feeding the club system. The issue is that rec lacrosse is declining this will impact all the clubs in time. I predict the gravy train will end. I would still put much of the blame for this on club lacrosse. I may be an outlier but my son really enjoyed those years and had a great experience with his club team. I would do it all over again in a minute. However I do think it is up to the clubs to work with communities to grow the sport. Why would this task fall to college coaches? As others have mentioned it is not their job. They are only interested in 5-7% of all lacrosse players. If club programs would work with the rec leagues and not destroy them, it would be a win/win. Club Lacrosse is Maryland is the biggest enemy to the sport they all but killed rec lacrosse. At least they showed others what not to do. Northern Virginia still has a chance to grow rec lacrosse but will need to work with the local clubs. HS lacrosse will also benefit so I think it is also up to high school coaches to support rec lacrosse. This is also where I am putting my money where my mouth is and I have donated a lot of my personal time and resources.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

OSVAlacrosse wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:32 pm
Last point, I think re OSV's comment: I don't see the club programs as actually incentivized to grow the sport. That just allows for more club programs, not much actual benefit to the existing ones...they get more rewarded by being able to charge more, not by having more competitors.
.

This assumes that the club only takes a finite number of players. In fact they take as many as they can and just make more teams. Even a local club near us added three new teams. There is a True Lacrosse in every city they are like a Subway franchise. However, this is a small window where the growth of the sport is still feeding the club system. The issue is that rec lacrosse is declining this will impact all the clubs in time. I predict the gravy train will end. I would still put much of the blame for this on club lacrosse. I may be an outlier but my son really enjoyed those years and had a great experience with his club team. I would do it all over again in a minute. However I do think it is up to the clubs to work with communities to grow the sport. Why would this task fall to college coaches? As others have mentioned it is not their job. They are only interested in 5-7% of all lacrosse players. If club programs would work with the rec leagues and not destroy them, it would be a win/win. Club Lacrosse is Maryland is the biggest enemy to the sport they all but killed rec lacrosse. At least they showed others what not to do. Northern Virginia still has a chance to grow rec lacrosse but will need to work with the local clubs. HS lacrosse will also benefit so I think it is also up to high school coaches to support rec lacrosse. This is also where I am putting my money where my mouth is and I have donated a lot of my personal time and resources.
We agree on all this; I just don't think the club folks are going to be any more community/greater good of the sport motivated than college coaches, etc.

We had a great experience with rec (Towsontowne), which I coached with other dads at for six years, then a great experience with the specific Trilogy team that was run by the assistants from Gilman and Calvert Hall with most of the best players from those two schools in a couple of contiguous classes...they played up an age group, so half the the team two years younger than most competition.

My son had a great time at each level, he was the driver as he moved up in levels. Loved playing with his buddies and getting to know the guys from other schools...just last night he was talking with a young 15 yr old defender, mentioned that he loved having Garrett Epple in front of him in net...kid's eyes went wide...
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:01 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:32 pm
Last point, I think re OSV's comment: I don't see the club programs as actually incentivized to grow the sport. That just allows for more club programs, not much actual benefit to the existing ones...they get more rewarded by being able to charge more, not by having more competitors.
.

This assumes that the club only takes a finite number of players. In fact they take as many as they can and just make more teams. Even a local club near us added three new teams. There is a True Lacrosse in every city they are like a Subway franchise. However, this is a small window where the growth of the sport is still feeding the club system. The issue is that rec lacrosse is declining this will impact all the clubs in time. I predict the gravy train will end. I would still put much of the blame for this on club lacrosse. I may be an outlier but my son really enjoyed those years and had a great experience with his club team. I would do it all over again in a minute. However I do think it is up to the clubs to work with communities to grow the sport. Why would this task fall to college coaches? As others have mentioned it is not their job. They are only interested in 5-7% of all lacrosse players. If club programs would work with the rec leagues and not destroy them, it would be a win/win. Club Lacrosse is Maryland is the biggest enemy to the sport they all but killed rec lacrosse. At least they showed others what not to do. Northern Virginia still has a chance to grow rec lacrosse but will need to work with the local clubs. HS lacrosse will also benefit so I think it is also up to high school coaches to support rec lacrosse. This is also where I am putting my money where my mouth is and I have donated a lot of my personal time and resources.
We agree on all this; I just don't think the club folks are going to be any more community/greater good of the sport motivated than college coaches, etc.

We had a great experience with rec (Towsontowne), which I coached with other dads at for six years, then a great experience with the specific Trilogy team that was run by the assistants from Gilman and Calvert Hall with most of the best players from those two schools in a couple of contiguous classes...they played up an age group, so half the the team two years younger than most competition.

My son had a great time at each level, he was the driver as he moved up in levels. Loved playing with his buddies and getting to know the guys from other schools...just last night he was talking with a young 15 yr old defender, mentioned that he loved having Garrett Epple in front of him in net...kid's eyes went wide...
There's a marginal value curve, dilution and the lag affect, we will see becuase the club system being rolled up will push it to the breaking point. It happens in every industry roll ups occur. Then whatever results after that???
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
wgdsr
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by wgdsr »

smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
i am past the point now where i get upset about it any longer. which saddens me. so lacrosse can do what it wants to do to itself. many folks still defend it. i railed from well over a decade ago on lp and to uslax and to any one of the club honchos to not go thru with this (push and push on club 365/24/7), it will eventually be a death knell. lacrosse didn't need to grow hyperspeed forever, but like anything once you start contracting it's a rock rolling downhill.

none of these stakeholders have incentive until they do.
OSVAlacrosse
Posts: 290
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by OSVAlacrosse »

wgdsr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:14 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
i am past the point now where i get upset about it any longer. which saddens me. so lacrosse can do what it wants to do to itself. many folks still defend it. i railed from well over a decade ago on lp and to uslax and to any one of the club honchos to not go thru with this (push and push on club 365/24/7), it will eventually be a death knell. lacrosse didn't need to grow hyperspeed forever, but like anything once you start contracting it's a rock rolling downhill.

none of these stakeholders have incentive until they do.
As others have stated many times, lacrosse is still a niche sport. In this case, this is a good thing as I think the lacrosse world is still small enough to fix itself. I also agree with smoova that nothing anyone posts here will have convince those key people to change. One challenge is that for many parents, by the time we figure this out, we are out. My son will graduate this year and head to the sport's furthest outpost from NOVA which was his choice. I will hope to still give as much time as I can back to those who have helped me along the way. When I fist started Northern Virginia was considered an outpost of lacrosse. Long Island kids referred to us as farm boys. As I reflect back I find it interesting that a group of kids in our area are now considered a hot bed. Our local youth rec team each year has multiple future college players. (Angelus JHU, Young, Richmond, Posey PSU, Youngx2, CNU) plus several soon to grace the fields on Saturdays. I wonder if the same kids would have the same results if they just kept playing together as a rec team and went to HS to play. The answer is most likely not under the current system.

In the spirit of the day the best I can ask of those who follow these posts is to give back your time and energy. Don't give up. I coached a 14U C team and now a lower tier HS team at a newer program as an assistant. Even in our area there are never enough coaches for the players that need the most coaching. I would never coach a top tier HS or club program for one reason-the parents.
wgdsr
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by wgdsr »

OSVAlacrosse wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:23 am
wgdsr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:14 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
i am past the point now where i get upset about it any longer. which saddens me. so lacrosse can do what it wants to do to itself. many folks still defend it. i railed from well over a decade ago on lp and to uslax and to any one of the club honchos to not go thru with this (push and push on club 365/24/7), it will eventually be a death knell. lacrosse didn't need to grow hyperspeed forever, but like anything once you start contracting it's a rock rolling downhill.

none of these stakeholders have incentive until they do.
As others have stated many times, lacrosse is still a niche sport. In this case, this is a good thing as I think the lacrosse world is still small enough to fix itself. I also agree with smoova that nothing anyone posts here will have convince those key people to change. One challenge is that for many parents, by the time we figure this out, we are out. My son will graduate this year and head to the sport's furthest outpost from NOVA which was his choice. I will hope to still give as much time as I can back to those who have helped me along the way. When I fist started Northern Virginia was considered an outpost of lacrosse. Long Island kids referred to us as farm boys. As I reflect back I find it interesting that a group of kids in our area are now considered a hot bed. Our local youth rec team each year has multiple future college players. (Angelus JHU, Young, Richmond, Posey PSU, Youngx2, CNU) plus several soon to grace the fields on Saturdays. I wonder if the same kids would have the same results if they just kept playing together as a rec team and went to HS to play. The answer is most likely not under the current system.

In the spirit of the day the best I can ask of those who follow these posts is to give back your time and energy. Don't give up. I coached a 14U C team and now a lower tier HS team at a newer program as an assistant. Even in our area there are never enough coaches for the players that need the most coaching. I would never coach a top tier HS or club program for one reason-the parents.
it did not have to be either/or. all they had to do was leave the spring to rec. or at a bare minimum, not encroach on it. now, johnny's friends don't come out to play, or if they even do they're frustrated quickly because their level of play isn't raised by more experienced osmosis. so they bail. ipso/facto, numbers decline. and we revert back to the (even smaller) niche sport that it was decades ago.

good for johnny's $$ parents who want their kid rocking lax at school xyz.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
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Re: Long time coming…

Post by Farfromgeneva »

wgdsr wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:54 am
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:23 am
wgdsr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:14 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
i am past the point now where i get upset about it any longer. which saddens me. so lacrosse can do what it wants to do to itself. many folks still defend it. i railed from well over a decade ago on lp and to uslax and to any one of the club honchos to not go thru with this (push and push on club 365/24/7), it will eventually be a death knell. lacrosse didn't need to grow hyperspeed forever, but like anything once you start contracting it's a rock rolling downhill.

none of these stakeholders have incentive until they do.
As others have stated many times, lacrosse is still a niche sport. In this case, this is a good thing as I think the lacrosse world is still small enough to fix itself. I also agree with smoova that nothing anyone posts here will have convince those key people to change. One challenge is that for many parents, by the time we figure this out, we are out. My son will graduate this year and head to the sport's furthest outpost from NOVA which was his choice. I will hope to still give as much time as I can back to those who have helped me along the way. When I fist started Northern Virginia was considered an outpost of lacrosse. Long Island kids referred to us as farm boys. As I reflect back I find it interesting that a group of kids in our area are now considered a hot bed. Our local youth rec team each year has multiple future college players. (Angelus JHU, Young, Richmond, Posey PSU, Youngx2, CNU) plus several soon to grace the fields on Saturdays. I wonder if the same kids would have the same results if they just kept playing together as a rec team and went to HS to play. The answer is most likely not under the current system.

In the spirit of the day the best I can ask of those who follow these posts is to give back your time and energy. Don't give up. I coached a 14U C team and now a lower tier HS team at a newer program as an assistant. Even in our area there are never enough coaches for the players that need the most coaching. I would never coach a top tier HS or club program for one reason-the parents.
it did not have to be either/or. all they had to do was leave the spring to rec. or at a bare minimum, not encroach on it. now, johnny's friends don't come out to play, or if they even do they're frustrated quickly because their level of play isn't raised by more experienced osmosis. so they bail. ipso/facto, numbers decline. and we revert back to the (even smaller) niche sport that it was decades ago.

good for johnny's $$ parents who want their kid rocking lax at school xyz.
That's where hopefully guys like me can help at the 2-5 level.

Had an assistant who four seasons in with his son didn't know what the heck GLE was and kept trying to pair his (very good and active/good listener son with pretty unathletic parents from my eye, though they have size, mom is built like Gronk but they also look as cooridinated as a blind and deaf old dog) with a better player on 6x6 (or 7s if you count goalie) and claim the other new kid who was a "fast learner" and athletic to pair. And have kids only play one position. I had to end that realquick. He just got sucked into some pay for play scheme new league where there were "tryouts' then they asked his son to be goalie.

These kids, IMO, have to play all the positions, pair with everyone and see all parts of the field with good and bad players.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

wgdsr wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:54 am
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:23 am
wgdsr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:14 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
i am past the point now where i get upset about it any longer. which saddens me. so lacrosse can do what it wants to do to itself. many folks still defend it. i railed from well over a decade ago on lp and to uslax and to any one of the club honchos to not go thru with this (push and push on club 365/24/7), it will eventually be a death knell. lacrosse didn't need to grow hyperspeed forever, but like anything once you start contracting it's a rock rolling downhill.

none of these stakeholders have incentive until they do.
As others have stated many times, lacrosse is still a niche sport. In this case, this is a good thing as I think the lacrosse world is still small enough to fix itself. I also agree with smoova that nothing anyone posts here will have convince those key people to change. One challenge is that for many parents, by the time we figure this out, we are out. My son will graduate this year and head to the sport's furthest outpost from NOVA which was his choice. I will hope to still give as much time as I can back to those who have helped me along the way. When I fist started Northern Virginia was considered an outpost of lacrosse. Long Island kids referred to us as farm boys. As I reflect back I find it interesting that a group of kids in our area are now considered a hot bed. Our local youth rec team each year has multiple future college players. (Angelus JHU, Young, Richmond, Posey PSU, Youngx2, CNU) plus several soon to grace the fields on Saturdays. I wonder if the same kids would have the same results if they just kept playing together as a rec team and went to HS to play. The answer is most likely not under the current system.

In the spirit of the day the best I can ask of those who follow these posts is to give back your time and energy. Don't give up. I coached a 14U C team and now a lower tier HS team at a newer program as an assistant. Even in our area there are never enough coaches for the players that need the most coaching. I would never coach a top tier HS or club program for one reason-the parents.
it did not have to be either/or. all they had to do was leave the spring to rec. or at a bare minimum, not encroach on it. now, johnny's friends don't come out to play, or if they even do they're frustrated quickly because their level of play isn't raised by more experienced osmosis. so they bail. ipso/facto, numbers decline. and we revert back to the (even smaller) niche sport that it was decades ago.

good for johnny's $$ parents who want their kid rocking lax at school xyz.
We were battling the same battle at the same time, I think wgdsr...I agree, if rec had been left to spring ball, augmenting whatever amount kids did in elementary and middle school, that would have been great...the clubs were greedy and started telling kids to choose, play year round with us or not at all....and moving ever younger... In rec, we had our intra-league contests and practices during the week, then more select 'travel' teams on the weekend...the push was for more time as 'select' teams, less for the 'everybody plays' teams...and the clubs promised that....yet would end up with too many kids per team, so kids sitting...

My son got lucky, far from the best athlete, but just good enough and serious enough to get selected to the better rec teams, at least most of the time, and the club thing hadn't gobbled up rec; in the intra-league we had all players play all positions, and made sure the least capable got time and felt successful; all of the coaches in 4+ teams at each age group had played DI, most captains, AA, etc..so, guys knew the game...he didn't join a summer club team until 7th grade and continued with rec through 8th. The specific club team was run by guys who were coaching HS in the spring already, so they were just focused on summer ball...and as the guys got older, a couple of tourney's in the fall after fall sports were wrapped up...not too many players, not too many weekends, and not a heck of a lot of travel...the number of top level DI players off that small set of kids is pretty amazing...and a whole bunch of the lesser players ended up playing DIII...some dropped out of the sport for other activities...I still have some of those come up to me to thank me for their experiences, the most gratifying, really.

I salute those continuing to support the game and the kids, in whatever way they can.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32144
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

wgdsr wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:54 am
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:23 am
wgdsr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:14 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:43 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:31 pm
smoova wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:19 pm Soooooo, the club system works because it distills players into a few good teams and gives college coaches exactly what they want. Also, the club system is causing participation to shrink and is about more than college recruiting.

Wild.
Not exactly. The club system worked (past tense future could be anything) for the reasons you stated. Lacrosse participation is shrinking. Why? Is it the club system? demo graphics, cost of entry, could be lots of things but the club system will need to create an environment that will attract more players (customers) in order to survive. It would be wild to expect this to come from USL or college coaches?
If your recent experience with youth coaching and the entire recruiting process has not convinced you that the club system (which, I agree, does a lovely job of giving college coaches exactly what they want) is principally responsibly for declining lacrosse participation, then nothing I hammer out on this board will change your mind.
i am past the point now where i get upset about it any longer. which saddens me. so lacrosse can do what it wants to do to itself. many folks still defend it. i railed from well over a decade ago on lp and to uslax and to any one of the club honchos to not go thru with this (push and push on club 365/24/7), it will eventually be a death knell. lacrosse didn't need to grow hyperspeed forever, but like anything once you start contracting it's a rock rolling downhill.

none of these stakeholders have incentive until they do.
As others have stated many times, lacrosse is still a niche sport. In this case, this is a good thing as I think the lacrosse world is still small enough to fix itself. I also agree with smoova that nothing anyone posts here will have convince those key people to change. One challenge is that for many parents, by the time we figure this out, we are out. My son will graduate this year and head to the sport's furthest outpost from NOVA which was his choice. I will hope to still give as much time as I can back to those who have helped me along the way. When I fist started Northern Virginia was considered an outpost of lacrosse. Long Island kids referred to us as farm boys. As I reflect back I find it interesting that a group of kids in our area are now considered a hot bed. Our local youth rec team each year has multiple future college players. (Angelus JHU, Young, Richmond, Posey PSU, Youngx2, CNU) plus several soon to grace the fields on Saturdays. I wonder if the same kids would have the same results if they just kept playing together as a rec team and went to HS to play. The answer is most likely not under the current system.

In the spirit of the day the best I can ask of those who follow these posts is to give back your time and energy. Don't give up. I coached a 14U C team and now a lower tier HS team at a newer program as an assistant. Even in our area there are never enough coaches for the players that need the most coaching. I would never coach a top tier HS or club program for one reason-the parents.
it did not have to be either/or. all they had to do was leave the spring to rec. or at a bare minimum, not encroach on it. now, johnny's friends don't come out to play, or if they even do they're frustrated quickly because their level of play isn't raised by more experienced osmosis. so they bail. ipso/facto, numbers decline. and we revert back to the (even smaller) niche sport that it was decades ago.

good for johnny's $$ parents who want their kid rocking lax at school xyz.
Very true. I would tell 15 years ago that “premier soccer” would reduce the poll of high caliber talent, not increase it. Lacrosse is the same. Parents without the time, money or willingness to travel, find something else to do for their children. I have been trying to tell a friend with a 2024 that he really has him doing too much but he won’t listen, really. He did cut back on events last Summer and his son landed Patriot League. This is lacrosse….3 month HS season and 9 months of showcasing and recruiting. It’s stupid and is driven by money making. College coaches don’t need to see a kid 7-8 times to know if he can play or not.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
kramerica.inc
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by kramerica.inc »

Correct. 100%.

Showcasing helps the kids who can't play ... get film and muck up the process. I get these kids all have dreams, but when I see some of these kids who don't play for their A-League team get recruited over kids with good game film (not highlights) against A-league teams and starters, it boggles my mind.

Think about it- you have IL recruiting ranks, NLF pushing only their kids, college alums pushing legacies and their players to staffs, and of course social media and highlight reels. None of which is a great, accurate read on a kid's ability.

Unfortunately there is a lot of "noise" out there that muddies the water.
CharlesS
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:51 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by CharlesS »

Having a boy go thru High School at a private school born in June has been eye opening. He was always the youngest boy in his grade bar none. Closet was a boy born in April who promptly reclassed in 8th grade to compete. I think for any lacrosse boys playing in his grade the youngest was born in Feb, frankly most were holdbacks or born Sept-Dec. He was lucky enough to have athletic ability to keep up and play with other MIAA players and was on a top club. We debated holding him back in 8th . The whole system left a sour taste in my mouth . My son got recruited like all the better players but had enough of lacrosse and went to a school where the sun shines and the girls look pretty. MD at many tournaments has a well deserved reputation as being king of holdbacks, the rest of country has caught on and is doing the same. I really doubt it changes much.
steel_hop
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by steel_hop »

cltlax wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:52 pm
Laxxal22 wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:19 pm Makes sense to keep younger players competing against kids who are within a 12-month range of each other (I don't think it matters as much once they reach high school age). The question then becomes what is date starts the cycle? 8/1 or 9/1 would do a better job of keeping kids in the same grade playing with each other than 1/1 imo.
Soccer moved to 1/1 years ago and it seems to have worked out just fine. Somehow, colleges are still able to recruit players...
The move to 1/1 was driven by aligning US Soccer with the international standards. The international standards were basically written by the EUROs for what they wanted and the US had to comply or be excluded or have some weird dichotomy of having teams with ineligible kids play for some tournaments (only US based) and age for others. It also caused problems because some entities took this to mean dividing kids up down in the low end county rec leagues where there is really no need. One of my sons was a December birthday and regularly was the youngest kid at tryouts.

Given the US is basically the sole driver of this 9/1 to 8/30 is probably what should be done. It is what they do in basketball (or there abouts) so not sure why there would be a need to split up kids that are in the same class unless age. You can even have some form of extension on the back end to accommodate a little.
steel_hop
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by steel_hop »

OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:18 pm The real problem is that our youth program (NVYLL) was the largest in all of US lacrosse when I started coaching at the youth level and now it is shrinking fast. It used to be tough to make the A team now they have trouble fielding two teams. We have more clubs and far fewer players trying out for these clubs. The market supply and demand will cause the: True lacrosse, NLF, 3 Step, Madlax, folks ect to re-think the system as they are the only ones that can change the system.
This is more an issue of HOCO than anything else. It crushed MD rec youth lacrosse and now it is doing the same in NoVa. I don't know if there are other HOCO like leagues around (I'm sure there are) but it makes me wonder whether this is happening in other places to the detriment of youth rec leagues. HOCO's ability to put travel/club teams in leagues with higher level of games certainly has caused issues in the rec leagues. Because the 7th and 8th graders play on Saturday and the NVYLL plays boys games on Saturday - rec games at the 14U level are basically true rec games. And that can be alright but it does have an impact on participation.

I won't get into the internal cannibalization that some programs are doing to field "elite" club teams in HOCO

So one other thing about the rec leagues that are generally run by the county or local youth lacrosse club (at least for the NVYLL) is that many of these club teams now are running mini-rec leagues. My inbox is filled with Next Level emails about playing in their "rec" league.
OSVAlacrosse
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:19 pm

Re: Long time coming…

Post by OSVAlacrosse »

steel_hop wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:31 pm
OSVAlacrosse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:18 pm The real problem is that our youth program (NVYLL) was the largest in all of US lacrosse when I started coaching at the youth level and now it is shrinking fast. It used to be tough to make the A team now they have trouble fielding two teams. We have more clubs and far fewer players trying out for these clubs. The market supply and demand will cause the: True lacrosse, NLF, 3 Step, Madlax, folks ect to re-think the system as they are the only ones that can change the system.
This is more an issue of HOCO than anything else. It crushed MD rec youth lacrosse and now it is doing the same in NoVa. I don't know if there are other HOCO like leagues around (I'm sure there are) but it makes me wonder whether this is happening in other places to the detriment of youth rec leagues. HOCO's ability to put travel/club teams in leagues with higher level of games certainly has caused issues in the rec leagues. Because the 7th and 8th graders play on Saturday and the NVYLL plays boys games on Saturday - rec games at the 14U level are basically true rec games. And that can be alright but it does have an impact on participation.

I won't get into the internal cannibalization that some programs are doing to field "elite" club teams in HOCO

So one other thing about the rec leagues that are generally run by the county or local youth lacrosse club (at least for the NVYLL) is that many of these club teams now are running mini-rec leagues. My inbox is filled with Next Level emails about playing in their "rec" league.
HOCO league would be a good test to see if youth lacrosse will ever go age based and enforce it. NVYLL has always been able to manage this. I still do not understand why a club would not work harder to support youth lacrosse when that is where they get their customers.
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