NCAC 2022

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Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Nosey Ned »

ReturnOfTheWAC wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:25 pm
OldWU wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:31 pm Fan -- That somebody with that "shallow understanding" is US Lacrosse and I agree with them that they can't rank a bunch of NESCAC schools that really haven't played in two years. John Carroll, IWU and Centre all won NCAA tournament games last year. Centre beat that traditional power, Denison, in a game that was no fluke. Centre lead the Big Red the entire game and was up 12-7 in the 4Q before Denison scored four in a row to make it close.
Im not sure we know enough about how you are rewarded for "Out of region" Wins vs "In Region Wins" I look at it more as OWU taking care of business in Region and essentially saying "we are not going to leave anything to speculation and are going to play teams finished ahead of us in last years Region 4 rankings". Beating the top Region 5 team from last year maybe gives them an argument(in my opinion a poor one) that they beat a top team. Maybe this is an unintended consequence of creating more regions(something I thought was a terrible idea).
I’m not sure I follow WAC …. OWU is in Region 4 and if I’m not mistaken, only playing 1 in Region OOC team, John Carrol. I’ll admit I don’t know who North Central is and too lazy to look up…. so maybe 2. Denison on the other hand is loaded with in Region 4 OOCs, Lynchburg, W&L, Baldwin Wallace, Grove City. They seem to fit the bill better of “taking care of business in Region” if that’s what your saying. Am I missing something?

If that is what you’re saying, great observation. I’ll admit I hadn’t looked at the OOC schedule through this lens - 2 years of Covid schedules disruptions has impaired my vision apparently and I continue to forget we aren’t North South anymore.
ReturnOfTheWAC
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by ReturnOfTheWAC »

Nosey Ned wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:00 pm
ReturnOfTheWAC wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:25 pm
OldWU wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:31 pm Fan -- That somebody with that "shallow understanding" is US Lacrosse and I agree with them that they can't rank a bunch of NESCAC schools that really haven't played in two years. John Carroll, IWU and Centre all won NCAA tournament games last year. Centre beat that traditional power, Denison, in a game that was no fluke. Centre lead the Big Red the entire game and was up 12-7 in the 4Q before Denison scored four in a row to make it close.
Im not sure we know enough about how you are rewarded for "Out of region" Wins vs "In Region Wins" I look at it more as OWU taking care of business in Region and essentially saying "we are not going to leave anything to speculation and are going to play teams finished ahead of us in last years Region 4 rankings". Beating the top Region 5 team from last year maybe gives them an argument(in my opinion a poor one) that they beat a top team. Maybe this is an unintended consequence of creating more regions(something I thought was a terrible idea).
I’m not sure I follow WAC …. OWU is in Region 4 and if I’m not mistaken, only playing 1 in Region OOC team, John Carrol. I’ll admit I don’t know who North Central is and too lazy to look up…. so maybe 2. Denison on the other hand is loaded with in Region 4 OOCs, Lynchburg, W&L, Baldwin Wallace, Grove City. They seem to fit the bill better of “taking care of business in Region” if that’s what your saying. Am I missing something?

If that is what you’re saying, great observation. I’ll admit I hadn’t looked at the OOC schedule through this lens - Covid has ruined my vision apparently and continue to forget we aren’t North South anymore.
Correct. JC finished above OWU last year. Nothing against JC but if I’m OWU I like my chances in that game . That leaves you with LBurg(I think LBurg would win going away), BW(Again I think OWU is better(not playing tho),and Denison(a team you will most likely play twice) Additionally OWU has to atleast like it’s chances of beating clearly the weakest Regiona(5) #1 ranked team(I have no idea with the added regions if all regional wins are created equal. Example a win vs Tufts #1 regionally ranked vs IWU #1 regionally ranked. It shouldn’t, but then again we saw last year with the brackets a team get beat nearly by 30 in the quarterfinals while other great programs sat at home. It will be interesting to see how the regional rankings affect the bracket
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Nosey Ned »

ReturnOfTheWAC wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:49 pm
Nosey Ned wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:00 pm
ReturnOfTheWAC wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:25 pm
OldWU wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:31 pm Fan -- That somebody with that "shallow understanding" is US Lacrosse and I agree with them that they can't rank a bunch of NESCAC schools that really haven't played in two years. John Carroll, IWU and Centre all won NCAA tournament games last year. Centre beat that traditional power, Denison, in a game that was no fluke. Centre lead the Big Red the entire game and was up 12-7 in the 4Q before Denison scored four in a row to make it close.
Im not sure we know enough about how you are rewarded for "Out of region" Wins vs "In Region Wins" I look at it more as OWU taking care of business in Region and essentially saying "we are not going to leave anything to speculation and are going to play teams finished ahead of us in last years Region 4 rankings". Beating the top Region 5 team from last year maybe gives them an argument(in my opinion a poor one) that they beat a top team. Maybe this is an unintended consequence of creating more regions(something I thought was a terrible idea).
I’m not sure I follow WAC …. OWU is in Region 4 and if I’m not mistaken, only playing 1 in Region OOC team, John Carrol. I’ll admit I don’t know who North Central is and too lazy to look up…. so maybe 2. Denison on the other hand is loaded with in Region 4 OOCs, Lynchburg, W&L, Baldwin Wallace, Grove City. They seem to fit the bill better of “taking care of business in Region” if that’s what your saying. Am I missing something?

If that is what you’re saying, great observation. I’ll admit I hadn’t looked at the OOC schedule through this lens - Covid has ruined my vision apparently and continue to forget we aren’t North South anymore.
Correct. JC finished above OWU last year. Nothing against JC but if I’m OWU I like my chances in that game . That leaves you with LBurg(I think LBurg would win going away), BW(Again I think OWU is better(not playing tho),and Denison(a team you will most likely play twice) Additionally OWU has to atleast like it’s chances of beating clearly the weakest Regiona(5) #1 ranked team(I have no idea with the added regions if all regional wins are created equal. Example a win vs Tufts #1 regionally ranked vs IWU #1 regionally ranked. It shouldn’t, but then again we saw last year with the brackets a team get beat nearly by 30 in the quarterfinals while other great programs sat at home. It will be interesting to see how the regional rankings affect the bracket
Still don’t see how scheduling just 1 in Region OOC game helps OWU “take care of business in Region”.

Regardless, I’m not sure all this really even matters to be honest since Denison’s and OWU’s reality, since the implementation of the NCAC AQ, has been win that Conference Championship game or sit out the NCAA Tournament. Prior to that AQ, there were a number of years both schools got invited. The exception of course is having an OOC record like OWU had in 2018 when they beat Salisbury in OT and played both RIT and Cabrini (a 1 goal loss) tough and earned a much deserved At Large bid. A great year as it saw Denison play OWU 3 times - all great games - and hats off to OWU for winning twice.

Incidentally, since Denison has owned the NCAC Tournament for the last 6 years, that’s the only NCAA Tournament OWU has played in since 2015. A pretty dry spell for such a storied program. And so IMHO, I still think a quality win regardless of Region will be a quality win so this OOC schedule for the Bishops, other than RIT of course, means quality win opportunities are scarce. It therefore kind of insures OWU will need to win the NCAC Championship game to go dancing. And so back to my original question, do we really think this is smart scheduling like Old had labeled it?
FannOLax
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by FannOLax »

Okay, here is OWU's 2022 schedule: https://battlingbishops.com/sports/mens ... e/schedule

OldOWU's posting covered everything but away to Roanoke and home against Albion. No Southern Virginia. Roanoke is a nice addition.

2/19 @ Illinois Wesleyan (Away)
2/26 Centre (Home)
3/5 North Central (Home)
3/8 @ Roanoke (Away)
3/12 @ John Carroll (Away)
3/19 RIT (Home)
3/23 Albion (Home)
3/26 DePauw (Home)
4/2 Wittenberg (Home)
4/9 @ Allegheny (Away)
4/12 @ Wooster (Away)
4/15 Denison (Home)
4/20 @ Hiram (Away)
4/23 @ Oberlin (Away)
4/26 @ Wabash (Away)
4/30 Kenyon (Home)
OldWU
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by OldWU »

Ned....you said the following "Incidentally, since Denison has owned the NCAC Tournament for the last 6 years, that’s the only NCAA Tournament OWU has played in since 2015. A pretty dry spell for such a storied program"

Perhaps you forgot 2018 when OWU beat Denison two of the three times they met, including in the second round of the NCAAs? The Bishops got to the quarters that year, losing a close one to Gettysburg.
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Nosey Ned »

OldWU wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:18 pm Ned....you said the following "Incidentally, since Denison has owned the NCAC Tournament for the last 6 years, that’s the only NCAA Tournament OWU has played in since 2015. A pretty dry spell for such a storied program"

Perhaps you forgot 2018 when OWU beat Denison two of the three times they met, including in the second round of the NCAAs? The Bishops got to the quarters that year, losing a close one to Gettysburg.
Old …. What don’t you get? I mentioned precisely what you claim I “forgot” in the paragraph above the line of mine you quoted - and even tipped my hat to OWU for their success in 2018! Nothing I said was incorrect. OWU has participated in only 1 NCAA National Tournament since 2015 and that was the one granted from an At Large Bid in 2018 because OWU lost the NCAC Championship Tournament game in 2018 to Denison. Just as they did in 2016; 2017 and would again in 2019. There was no game in 2020 of course and Denison beat Kenyon in the 2021 Conference Championship game…so yes, Denison has owned the NCAC Tournament since 2015 … again a factually correct statement.
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Nosey Ned »

FannOLax wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:33 am Okay, here is OWU's 2022 schedule: https://battlingbishops.com/sports/mens ... e/schedule

OldOWU's posting covered everything but away to Roanoke and home against Albion. No Southern Virginia. Roanoke is a nice addition.

3/8 @ Roanoke (Away)
Fann, thanks for sharing OWUs schedule. I find the addition of Roanoke a particularly interesting one as Roanoke is not on Denison’s slate this year for the first time since 2013 (last year not withstanding of course). Denison had played Roanoke every year since 2014 - they even played each other in 2020 before the season got canceled. Like OWU this year, the Big Red had to travel to Roanoke the first 4 times in this string and it wasn’t until 2018 that Maroons finally were the ones to hop on their bus and make the trip to Granville. I mention this because I find the OOC scheduling interesting and would love to know what transpired to end this annual matchup. Who dropped who? Denison went 5-2 in the 7 games, winning the last 4 in a row. Was it travel budget, no open dates, new competition wanted ? Anyway, good luck to the Bishops in this matchup … keep the NCAC light burning here!
River Donkey
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by River Donkey »

Has OWU filled the assistant position they were having trouble filling?
OldWU
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by OldWU »

Ned...Sorry, I read your post on my phone and I skimmed past the previous paragraph and mistook the meaning of your post, which was very clear. Old eyes on OldWU! You are correct, the AQ and failure to win the NCAC tournament has prevented OWU and others (Kenyon) from getting in the tournament, as in the previous decade before the AQ in 2013. The whole topic of the AQ has been beaten to death on this NCAC forum and it isn't worth re-visiting.

That's why it's pretty obvious that Coach Plantholt has changed his scheduling strategy to try to get wins against what are the top teams in other regions. If you look at last year's regional rankings (see link below), Illinois Wesleyan, Centre, Albion and North Central were all ranked in Region 5 and John Carroll in Region 4. Will this give OWU a potential back door to the NCAAs? Who knows, but a win against these teams counts just as much wins against the top teams in the eastern regions. Certainly, playing well against RIT and Roanoke would be a big boost too!

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/lacrosse- ... l-rankings
FannOLax
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by FannOLax »

OldWU wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:04 am ... it's pretty obvious that Coach Plantholt has changed his scheduling strategy to try to get wins against what are the top teams in other regions. If you look at last year's regional rankings (see link below), Illinois Wesleyan, Centre, Albion and North Central were all ranked in Region 5 and John Carroll in Region 4. Will this give OWU a potential back door to the NCAAs? Who knows, but a win against these teams counts just as much wins against the top teams in the eastern regions. Certainly, playing well against RIT and Roanoke would be a big boost too!

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/lacrosse- ... l-rankings
Thank you for posting the Regions link, OldWU. Interesting that there isn't a distinct "Regions" discussion thread here on Fanlax. Why five regions instead of four (or six or 8 or 12 or 16)? Why are there regions at all (they don't have any in D1)? And what bearing do regional rankings have on NCAA tournament selection?
OldWU
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by OldWU »

I am guessing the primary (and maybe sole) motivation for five regions is to cut down of travel during the first rounds of the tournament and to save money on travel expenses for the NCAA. I can't really think of any other reason.
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DeepPocket
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by DeepPocket »

FannOLax wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:56 am Thank you for posting the Regions link, OldWU. Interesting that there isn't a distinct "Regions" discussion thread here on Fanlax. Why five regions instead of four (or six or 8 or 12 or 16)? Why are there regions at all (they don't have any in D1)? And what bearing do regional rankings have on NCAA tournament selection?
It was discussed here-

viewtopic.php?f=292&t=2778&p=250851&hil ... ns#p250851

I think the overall consensus was tournament travel costs for the regions (less of a factor in DI).
MAC - The SEC of DIII lacrosse.
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Nosey Ned »

Dehuntshigwa posted this recently on another thread ….
“Many are expecting a drop off in Denison’s production with the coaching change. I believe Koch is going to do a great job, especially on the defensive half. Denison made a great choice.”

I’ve moved my follow up here for obvious reasons….

I am hoping Koch of course turns out to be a “great choice” and has what it takes to take the step up to HC. I hope his Denison team continues the positive trajectory Caravana’s teams had solidified over the last many years. So I’m also hoping he understands the program was by no means broken and wholesale changes to the way “things are done” aren’t in order. I hope he can check any natural desire to put his stamp on the program and thusly doesn’t go too far too soon. Caravana was a legendary coach and it won’t be easy following that but he was left with a very solid program and he just needs to fine tune it to start perhaps. To be clear …. I have no knowledge of what has taken place in the fall so please don’t read anymore in to this then one fans hand wringing! Haha

As for this year, despite last year’s disappointment I’m encouraged by the amount of quality minutes underclassmen got throughout the season last year. A look at the stats will show that for the first time in many many years the production in 2021 didn’t come from seniors and juniors. No knock intended on last years leadership as they had to navigate unprecedented times, or no disrespect to Coach Z and Centre, but last years 1st round loss in the tournament was the worst loss the Big Red has experienced in many many years. Inexcusable really … and I put that on senior leadership. However, I am encouraged by what the young guys showed last year in those many moments and I expect them to show even greater growth from that experience than typically displayed after a year of experience. I therefore do expect them to win the AQ again this year. As for the National picture, they’ll be disadvantaged by the lack of 5th and 6th years so let’s see how this young team navigates the OOC and grows from those games before arguing they deserve a Top 10ish ranking the guys before them had earned every year recently.

Time for talking is almost over …. Go Big Red
InsiderRoll
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by InsiderRoll »

Nosey Ned wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:51 pm Dehuntshigwa posted this recently on another thread ….
“Many are expecting a drop off in Denison’s production with the coaching change. I believe Koch is going to do a great job, especially on the defensive half. Denison made a great choice.”

Time for talking is almost over …. Go Big Red
Hearing news that he banned Greek life for the program. I’m sure more context would help, probably a great long term move but in the meantime I’m sure he’s not the most popular with some of the players.
Dehuntshigwa’es
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Dehuntshigwa’es »

InsiderRoll wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:08 pm
Nosey Ned wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:51 pm Dehuntshigwa posted this recently on another thread ….
“Many are expecting a drop off in Denison’s production with the coaching change. I believe Koch is going to do a great job, especially on the defensive half. Denison made a great choice.”

Time for talking is almost over …. Go Big Red
Hearing news that he banned Greek life for the program. I’m sure more context would help, probably a great long term move but in the meantime I’m sure he’s not the most popular with some of the players.
Great move, while not popular perhaps, I believe frats are a distraction. They certainly are at W&L, long term it’s a great move. Your team is your frat
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DeepPocket
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by DeepPocket »

Couple in party related COVID concerns and this is a no brainer.
MAC - The SEC of DIII lacrosse.
FannOLax
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by FannOLax »

Denison's fraternities were especially, um, distracting. In the 1990's all fraternities got kicked off campus; the faculty pretty much hated what fraternities had become at Denison starting in the 1970s.
I certainly wouldn't fault Coach Koch for that move.
River Donkey
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by River Donkey »

Smart move.
BIGDAWG
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by BIGDAWG »

Not a fan of this move for the Big Red, may be the downfall of a once proud program. After Caravana's forced resignation due to some shady off the field actions and now this, it will be hard to recover. Looks like teams like Wooster and Wittenberg will have their chance to fill the gap.
WhiteCarrera
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by WhiteCarrera »

Wow - I think it's a terrible move any time a coach says, "If you want to be a part of my program, then you have to give up certain other things this college has to offer!" How does he feel about off-campus study in the fall semester, or two-sport athletes? How does he feel about the theater program, or any other thing that might be a part of a kid's college experience.

If those prohibitions are made clear in the recruiting process, then I guess a kid has the chance to make that decision with open eyes, but it sends a really bad message when a coach tries to control the non-sport related parts of the college experience. And it's an equally bad move when a college identifies a segment of its students, based upon their athletic participation (Amherst, anyone?).
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