NCAC 2021

D3 Mens Lacrosse
OldWU
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by OldWU »

So....new coach at Denison. It appears Planholt is staying at OWU. Kenyon got to the NCAC final and placed more players on the All-NCAC squad than anyone else. Oberlin and Wabash have new coaches. Allegheny will have another season under their belt....what does the Post-COVID NCAC look like?
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2022

Post by Nosey Ned »

OldWU wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:44 pm So....new coach at Denison. It appears Planholt is staying at OWU. Kenyon got to the NCAC final and placed more players on the All-NCAC squad than anyone else. Oberlin and Wabash have new coaches. Allegheny will have another season under their belt....what does the Post-COVID NCAC look like?
In 2022? It will mirror the Pre-Covid NCAC. Meaning the schedule returns to normal and once again we see OWU vs Denison in the Conference Tournament Final. And it will remain so until one of the other pretenders can actually do more than perhaps "capture lightning in a bottle" every 10 years or so unfortunately.
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Nosey Ned »

Over on the Coach Carousel thread there's a lot a reference's to coaches, new or old, needing the support of their Administration to be successful. But what exactly does that mean? How can you quantify the level of support any particular coach might get. Is roster size a good place to start? I think it is because obviously the greater the number of players, the bigger the budget needs to be to support the larger teams ... everything from equipment to meal and hotel rooms on the road are that much bigger for a 40+ roster.

Can a look at roster sizes for each team (in 2020 to take out Covid anomalies) give an accurate gauge of the success of the program and level of support the coach is receiving?
Allegheny 26 (new program so this # is misleading - mostly FYs)
Denison 47
Depauw 26
Hiram 22
Kenyon 46
Oberlin 36
OWU 40
Wabash 22
Wittenberg 35
Wooster 41
Is it a coincidence that the teams with 40+ players are year in and year out the top 4 teams in the conference?

Heck if you only have 20 odd players, how can you even have a proper inter squad scrimmage? Never mind run a somewhat useful scout team? You need competition on the team to push players to work hard for playing time. Everyone gets better with solid intra team competition. I think it's one of the keys to DU and OWU long running success in conference.

Is it a matter of chicken or the egg? Do the new coaches need to get more players willing to commit to their program to grow or do the Administrations need to give the new coaches the helmets to fill?

I know this is very simplistic, but I do think it's at the heart of the question regarding "support for a program" and whether the school simply wants to field a team or rather wants to be relevant locally and nationally.
Cheeseandcrackers
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Cheeseandcrackers »

Whenever I have talked to D3 coaches, they say one of their marching orders is "put heads in beds". D3 athletics are a tool to recruit students to the college. I expect every coach in the NCAC wants a big roster. Getting there is the problem.
River Donkey
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by River Donkey »

Cheeseandcrackers wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:29 am Whenever I have talked to D3 coaches, they say one of their marching orders is "put heads in beds". D3 athletics are a tool to recruit students to the college. I expect every coach in the NCAC wants a big roster. Getting there is the problem.
That’s not just a D3 thing, it’s D1, D2, and D3 thing. Heads who pay full tuition in beds would be more accurate. The more the better. This is especially true in D2 and mid to low D1. A lot of D2 schools are on “merit based scholarship” system. For example every 20 guys would generate a 1 full scholarship. Very popular in southern D2 schools. So if coaches want more administrative support they need to recruit above and beyond needs.
boredatwork
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by boredatwork »

I think that is a very interesting question and using the term “support” vaguely can seem a bit lazy but I think it is extremely important especially in a profession like coaching. The three things I would put as the basis of support is funding (as you mentioned), staffing, and an element of institutional involvement (not sure of a better term)

-Funding: Obviously lacrosse is an expensive sport to play so having a budget that can equip your players not only helps keep people safe, but it also allows a sense of legitimacy if you will when you are wearing up to date gear and not having to buy or do much fundraising. Obviously a program like Denison and OWU probably has the alumni base to offset any extreme costs (see OWU’s charter jets a few years back to long Island) and you can see how that can help a program.

-Staffing: If you look at the top 3 teams in the conference (I would consider that Denison, OWU, and a gap before Kenyon at 3) multiple full time assistants that can obviously be beneficial for on field practice and preparation, but also a huge benefit when you start thinking of recruiting. Not that the head coaches of those programs don’t go to events all over the country, but when you can send assistant coaches to different events coast to coast (another benefit of financial backing) you as a head coach are able to stay around school and handle any visits that may be scheduled and spend time with your family through the summer. The staffing also goes into other areas of strength and condition coaches, equipment/laundry personnel, etc. things that will allow a coach to focus as solely on lacrosse as possible. You can imaging a coach that has one graduate assistant (which means it will turn over every few years) having to try and train an assistant to do things the way the head coach would like, only to lose that assistant after a couple years and have to start the process over again not being able to have the same flexibility as other coaches with more support.

-institutional involvement: May be a bad phrase for what I mean but didn’t have a better word. Coaches who have open lines of communication with departments around campus, most notably admissions. A lot of schools who have had success are higher end academic schools so admissions can be their best ally’s or enemies depending on the structure of the school. Lacrosse is a fast, early recruiting sport and if your admissions isn’t willing to put in work during the summer, you are going to miss out on a lot of players who can help your program. It seems insane but there is still schools and programs out there that don’t give the athletic department any type of leeway or assistance, and you can probably see with where their program sits in standings. My guess is Kenyon and Denison (who already have commits in the class of 2022) are getting information from their admissions department before these commitments are made.

Those are some major factors in the umbrella of “support” in my opinion. If you are a coach that has a budget to run your program comfortably both on the field and in recruiting, have the staffing that you don’t have to do everything by yourself, and a school administration that is willing to work with you and adapt the evolving world of Division III athletics, you probably have a pretty good situation that you would be hesitant to part from. If you work at a school where half your budget has to be fundraised every year, you have no staffing and have to be on the road all summer, designing and conducting lifting programs, doing your teams laundry every day, etc. and your school doesn’t provide much help from other areas, I can see how coaches would get burnt out quick.

I think whether it's a "heads in beds" situation or just trying to compete nationally, the school has to be bought in as a whole most times.

*I spent some time in college athletics and I have seen both sides of this equation*
Can Opener
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Can Opener »

Very thoughtful post. Thank you!
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Nosey Ned »

Thanks Bored ... very thoughtful and succinct definition of "support". I'm not sure everyone is aware of the hardships an "unsupported" coach faces as described above! NO THANK YOU. No matter your qualifications, your doomed to mediocrity AT BEST.
WhiteCarrera
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by WhiteCarrera »

Ned, I can only speak for one, so take this FWIW. Small roster size is definitely part of a problem, but for Wabash a lack of support has not been the cause of that. The cause has been the lack of recruiting efficacy by the past two head coaches. Both were in over their heads (Not really their fault. They threw their hats in the ring, and got hired by a process that didn't know any better -- more power to them). Knowing the people involved though, the last three years at Wabash were 100% predictable - and that's too bad. For a school that demands more, that's a tough place to start.

Any way you look at it, DU and OWU have had all the lacrosse parts in place for a long time, and no one else in the conference can say that. If you want to predict the future of NCAC lacrosse, look at each program and ask, "Is this an outlier, compared to what's typical?" Unless you can argue that lacrosse gets special treatment (good or bad), then here's some food for thought:

NCAC Men's Championships since 2010
Wabash - 23 (5 sports)
Denison - 22 (6 sports, 10 in swimming)
OWU - 20 (6 sports)
Witt - 23 (4 sports, 10 in golf)
Kenyon - 16 (3 sports, 10 in tennis)
Wooster 13 (2 sports)
DePauw - 4 (2 sports)(For every men's team championship, DPU has 20 women's titles.)
Allegheny - 4 (all in cross country)
Oberlin - 1 (baseball)
Hiram - 0

My conclusions:
Denison - new coach will sustain the success (a good hire)
Oberlin - (right or wrong) will always have trouble overcoming it's reputation/perception,
DePauw - may never consistently win championships in men's team sports, and I've always said it's a great place for girls,
Kenyon, Wooster and Witt - consistently looking to get the mix right,
Wabash (Here's the outlier) - lacrosse at Wabash will start to resemble Wabash in general; not the other way around. It took too long, but the right people are now solidly on the same page.
It's either a thoughtful comment or smartass sarcasm. Learn to recognize the difference.
WhiteCarrera
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by WhiteCarrera »

Thanks Bored -- I didn't read your post until after I posted mine, but I think we're addressing a lot of the same things.
I too, have been on both sides of the "support" equation, and the difference is immense!
It's either a thoughtful comment or smartass sarcasm. Learn to recognize the difference.
WhiteCarrera
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by WhiteCarrera »

Kinda surprised to see that Plantholt interviewed at Amherst!
It's either a thoughtful comment or smartass sarcasm. Learn to recognize the difference.
OldWU
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by OldWU »

I'm a big supporter of OWU and I like Mike Plantholt a lot. The Bishops job is better than many others in D3, but he certainly should go after a job like Amherst if he feels that it is right for his family and himself.
Switzerland
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Switzerland »

OldWU wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:42 pm I'm a big supporter of OWU and I like Mike Plantholt a lot. The Bishops job is better than many others in D3, but he certainly should go after a job like Amherst if he feels that it is right for his family and himself.
So you’re the one?
OldWU
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by OldWU »

Switzerland wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:27 pm
OldWU wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:42 pm I'm a big supporter of OWU and I like Mike Plantholt a lot. The Bishops job is better than many others in D3, but he certainly should go after a job like Amherst if he feels that it is right for his family and himself.
So you’re the one?
No, I'm not the one.
Dehuntshigwa’es
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Location: Old Dominion

Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Dehuntshigwa’es »

Unless you get a transformative coach like at CNU or York that comes to mind Denison and OWU will continue to dominate the conference. Even with that it will be an up hill struggle.
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Nosey Ned »

https://denisonbigred.com/news/2021/8/1 ... staff.aspx

Coach Koch announces two new hires to his staff. They sound like very solid additions and I’m sure both will do a great job for the Big Red. I assume this also means Coach Zalesky will be moving on. If true that’s a shame. He is a very, very good Coach and offensive coordinator and I’m sure I speak for many Denison faithful when I thank him for his service and wish him nothing but continued success. He will make an excellent head coach and any number of the D3 programs still looking to fill an opening, will do well to consider him for the roll.
Last edited by Nosey Ned on Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nosey Ned
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Nosey Ned »

WhiteCarrera wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:05 pm Ned, I can only speak for one, so take this FWIW. Small roster size is definitely part of a problem, but for Wabash a lack of support has not been the cause of that. The cause has been the lack of recruiting efficacy by the past two head coaches. Both were in over their heads (Not really their fault. They threw their hats in the ring, and got hired by a process that didn't know any better -- more power to them). Knowing the people involved though, the last three years at Wabash were 100% predictable - and that's too bad. For a school that demands more, that's a tough place to start.

Any way you look at it, DU and OWU have had all the lacrosse parts in place for a long time, and no one else in the conference can say that. If you want to predict the future of NCAC lacrosse, look at each program and ask, "Is this an outlier, compared to what's typical?" Unless you can argue that lacrosse gets special treatment (good or bad), then here's some food for thought:

NCAC Men's Championships since 2010
Wabash - 23 (5 sports)
Denison - 22 (6 sports, 10 in swimming)
OWU - 20 (6 sports)
Witt - 23 (4 sports, 10 in golf)
Kenyon - 16 (3 sports, 10 in tennis)
Wooster 13 (2 sports)
DePauw - 4 (2 sports)(For every men's team championship, DPU has 20 women's titles.)
Allegheny - 4 (all in cross country)
Oberlin - 1 (baseball)
Hiram - 0

My conclusions:
Denison - new coach will sustain the success (a good hire)
Oberlin - (right or wrong) will always have trouble overcoming it's reputation/perception,
DePauw - may never consistently win championships in men's team sports, and I've always said it's a great place for girls,
Kenyon, Wooster and Witt - consistently looking to get the mix right,
Wabash (Here's the outlier) - lacrosse at Wabash will start to resemble Wabash in general; not the other way around. It took too long, but the right people are now solidly on the same page.
Hey White …. You posted this a while ago and I appreciate the info. I wish the new Coach at Wabash much success and I truly hope he makes that program at least competitive in the very near term. Rising water raises all boats and we need more than 2 horses in this race.

But I do have one question about your post. You chose to add a schools success in a particular sport I assume to minimize or call into question the overall athletic accomplishments of that school. So my question is why did you neglect to mention 15 of Wabash’s 23 championships came in Track and Field (indoor and outdoor)? And if you throw in the 3 Championships in Cross Country, that’s 18 of 23 Championships are in a particular concentration. When looked under that lens, I’m not sure there is the given “standard of excellence” in Wabash athletics… certainly not one that would suggest Wabash lacrosse will be gunning for the top spot any time soon.

I’m not picking a fight but I did think it was important enough to point out this inconsistency in your delivery of the facts. Also by my count Denison has 23 Championships and OWU only 19. That’s important….just because! Haha

Also worth noting that Denison is the current Conference Championship holder in 4 of the 5 men’s Spring sports (baseball, tennis, golf and lacrosse) while Wabash is in, wait for it ….. outdoor track and field!
WhiteCarrera
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:11 pm

Re: NCAC 2021

Post by WhiteCarrera »

Ned - I'm still coming up with 20 championships for OWU, but I agree with you on Denison's 23 (my mistake).

Concerning the sidenotes, no real agenda there -- I think I was just trying to point out how widely a schools success was (or wasn't) spread among sports, or where there was some dominance in a single sport. I think the number "10" jumped out at me, but as I totaled things I never thought to combine indoor/outdoor T&F. Anyway winning 10 of 12 seems a lot more impressive than 15 of 24.

TBH, I was trying to be as objective as possible and not put any opinion into that post. From an NCAC point of view, I can only go by the sports that are sponsored, and that's what I did. If you want, I could point out Wabash's 26 Wrestling All-Americans since 2010, and three straight Top-5 rankings (wink, wink).
It's either a thoughtful comment or smartass sarcasm. Learn to recognize the difference.
Nosey Ned
Posts: 459
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Re: NCAC 2021

Post by Nosey Ned »

Nosey Ned wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:42 pm https://denisonbigred.com/news/2021/8/1 ... staff.aspx

Coach Koch announces two new hires to his staff. They sound like very solid additions and I’m sure both will do a great job for the Big Red. I assume this also means Coach Zalesky will be moving on. If true that’s a shame. He is a very, very good Coach and offensive coordinator and I’m sure I speak for many Denison faithful when I thank him for his service and wish him nothing but continued success. He will make an excellent head coach and any number of the D3 programs still looking to fill an opening, will do well to consider him for the roll.
Well here’s hoping Wabash is able to immediately recruit a full compliment of student athletes for their lacrosse program and start making the climb up the conference rankings. That would be good for all.

I’m afraid my sidetrack post might deflect attention from the more important lacrosse centric post I sent earlier - so I have reposted here in the hope it gets attention. Would love to hear some feedback on Koch’s hires and comments on Zalesky if anyone wants to weigh in.
MrLax2U
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:09 pm

Re: NCAC 2021

Post by MrLax2U »

Greetings Ned,
Good to see you posting and hope all is well with you and yours. Very impressive additions to the men's lax coaching staff. Both coaches look like they could assume head coaching positions. Would appreciate some inside color. The Salisbury team which included Coach Rohde is legendary.
Do we know what roles Coach Bartlett will assume?
Expecting big things from Big Red 2022 and hopefully see you in May.
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