we're seeing this explicitly with the women's d3 tourney.
FanLax Forum Poll
Re: FanLax Forum Poll
Caddy Day
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we're seeing this explicitly with the women's d3 tourney. which strikes me as fair in crowning a national champion. less fair when considering who is the #2 through #whatever teams in the nation.
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Re: FanLax Forum Poll
Could it be the pollsters ranked teams that actually played a number of games and tried not to have (NESCAC) bias?UpperCorner wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:42 pm Sorry - can't hold my tongue any more... some of these pols are downright confusing.
Love to see the rest of the country catching up... but they're still catching up. Love to see the new names on the board and love that this sport is growing exponentially... but please be rational when making these rankings.
Re: FanLax Forum Poll
Polls are not just a place to list the likely winner of every conference. They are for ranking the nation's best teams irrespective of conference. Predicting tourney seeds is something completely different.
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ah23: You're a decent fellow and an astute contributor. All these kids are practicing in freezing January and then through their season. When they have an xx - 1 season; win their conference and qualify for the NCAAs, can't at least one self appointed LaxPower pollster give them some a little recognition? A shout out; a Booyah, a ranking?Polls are not just a place to list the likely winner of every conference. They are for ranking the nation's best teams irrespective of conference. Predicting tourney seeds is something completely different.
Re: FanLax Forum Poll
Gotta agree with ah about polls BUT once you get past maybe the top 18 and dig into strong programs with 4 or 5 losses vs teams like Baldwin Wallace, Illinois Wesleyan, Aurora etc are certainly competitive for those rankings.MrLax2U wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:32 pmah23: You're a decent fellow and an astute contributor. All these kids are practicing in freezing January and then through their season. When they have an xx - 1 season; win their conference and qualify for the NCAAs, can't at least one self appointed LaxPower pollster give them some a little recognition? A shout out; a Booyah, a ranking?Polls are not just a place to list the likely winner of every conference. They are for ranking the nation's best teams irrespective of conference. Predicting tourney seeds is something completely different.
This year with some teams playing 2 or 3 games be they NESCAC or some other power conference teams I would not even consider them for a top twenty five. Also there is no complaint here about the number of AQs. Win your conference and you have no issue. Man up.
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Well I doubt those southern kids are practicing in the freezing coldMrLax2U wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:32 pm ah23: You're a decent fellow and an astute contributor. All these kids are practicing in freezing January and then through their season. When they have an xx - 1 season; win their conference and qualify for the NCAAs, can't at least one self appointed LaxPower pollster give them some a little recognition? A shout out; a Booyah, a ranking?
Bad jokes aside, of course these teams deserve recognition. The sticking point is whether it makes sense to do that in the polls. People view polls - even informal ones - as attempts to sift through the national landscape and put the best lacrosse teams in order. In theory, the #21 team in my poll is who I think the 21st best team in the country is. I know you know this, so apologies if it seems like I’m trying to talk down. Just laying things out.
So - when you put teams like Baldwin-Wallace, SUNY Maritime, or others in your poll, people interpret that as you saying those teams are among the best in the country. As you commented above, you don’t actually believe that (no one in their right mind would think that SUNY Maritime is better than Gettysburg or Union). That is where the frustration/pushback comes from.
TL;DR: I don’t think people disagree with recognizing smaller/up and coming programs. I think people disagree with using polls - universally accepted to be a ranking of relative quality - to advocate for non competitive teams who (as you acknowledged) have no merit-based case for being there.
Re: FanLax Forum Poll
+1ah23 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:16 pmWell I doubt those southern kids are practicing in the freezing coldMrLax2U wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:32 pm ah23: You're a decent fellow and an astute contributor. All these kids are practicing in freezing January and then through their season. When they have an xx - 1 season; win their conference and qualify for the NCAAs, can't at least one self appointed LaxPower pollster give them some a little recognition? A shout out; a Booyah, a ranking?
Bad jokes aside, of course these teams deserve recognition. The sticking point is whether it makes sense to do that in the polls. People view polls - even informal ones - as attempts to sift through the national landscape and put the best lacrosse teams in order. In theory, the #21 team in my poll is who I think the 21st best team in the country is. I know you know this, so apologies if it seems like I’m trying to talk down. Just laying things out.
So - when you put teams like Baldwin-Wallace, SUNY Maritime, or others in your poll, people interpret that as you saying those teams are among the best in the country. As you commented above, you don’t actually believe that (no one in their right mind would think that SUNY Maritime is better than Gettysburg or Union). That is where the frustration/pushback comes from.
TL;DR: I don’t think people disagree with recognizing smaller/up and coming programs. I think people disagree with using polls - universally accepted to be a ranking of relative quality - to advocate for non competitive teams who (as you acknowledged) have no merit-based case for being there.
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Another thing MrLax2U: for what it’s worth I think you’re adding value to the forums by taking the time to bring up teams who will never sniff the polls but will show up in the postseason. I probably wouldn’t spend more than one minute thinking about John Carroll or Grove City otherwise, and IMO it’s a good thing that you’ve mentioned them. I 100% disagree with putting them in the polls (see above), but I think discussing them in the forums is value added. That’s the point of these forums!
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I don’t participate in the weekly poll exercise so maybe I’m overextending my place by opining here but that hasn’t stopped me before. So here’s my 2 cents. When the call went out from ADMIN in Jan of 2020 attempting to gauge our collective interest in doing a weekly poll, part of that post offered the following.... “And, of course, all post-ers will have an opportunity to offer support, ask questions, deride and ridicule the Poll Post-ers for their weak choices, etc.”. I read that to mean, have fun with it! Let’s not take ourselves too seriously. So in other words to each his (or her) own. I, being a regular reader and occasional poster have come to learn many fellow posters biases and takes on many things. For instance, I appreciate MrLax using this avenue to bring my attention to up and comers. I never heard of or thought of Grove City until Mr Lax “preposterously” included them in his weekly poll last year! If it weren’t for his poll, I dare say to this day I wouldn’t have clicked on a thread where Grove City were front and center. And really, what’s the harm? Those who are “plugged in” know who the leading programs are. Do we really need another version of that which we can find a half dozen other places if we look.ah23 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:11 pm Another thing MrLax2U: for what it’s worth I think you’re adding value to the forums by taking the time to bring up teams who will never sniff the polls but will show up in the postseason. I probably wouldn’t spend more than one minute thinking about John Carroll or Grove City otherwise, and IMO it’s a good thing that you’ve mentioned them. I 100% disagree with putting them in the polls (see above), but I think discussing them in the forums is value added. That’s the point of these forums!
So I say ... keep it up Mr Lax - post the poll you want. And 23, you too, please keep posting your version. It’s all good. I think we all have come to know who takes the time and energy to try and be “addictive” to the discussion. And we all know what to take as serious, tongue in cheek or someone’s attempt to simply agitated. I put all of you pollsters in the “additive “ category so please keep it up.
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Hear, hear...Nosey Ned wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:48 pm So I say ... keep it up Mr Lax - post the poll you want. And 23, you too, please keep posting your version. It’s all good. I think we all have come to know who takes the time and energy to try and be “addictive” to the discussion. And we all know what to take as serious, tongue in cheek or someone’s attempt to simply agitated. I put all of you pollsters in the “additive “ category so please keep it up.
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Re: FanLax Forum Poll
Well Mr. Lax2U's efforts made me watch a bit of tonight's Grove City-Bethany game. Didn't change my opinion(s), but I watched, so there is that.ah23 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:11 pm Another thing MrLax2U: for what it’s worth I think you’re adding value to the forums by taking the time to bring up teams who will never sniff the polls but will show up in the postseason. I probably wouldn’t spend more than one minute thinking about John Carroll or Grove City otherwise, and IMO it’s a good thing that you’ve mentioned them. I 100% disagree with putting them in the polls (see above), but I think discussing them in the forums is value added. That’s the point of these forums!
Unrelated, but I also watched Eastern-York and Eastern was so, so close .... but the coach missed an oppty to call a TO late and lost a possession oppty, and it was over shortly thereafter more or less (in my opinion)
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Would highly recommend catching a few minutes of Illinois Wesleyan's games if anyone has the time. Permanent ten man ride and shots seemingly every 15 seconds. Third quarter finishing up right now vs. Elmhurst, IWU just was man down and forced a turnover, chucked an outlet pass to midfield, and the longpole who caught it went and took a stepdown shot from 15 yards right past the Elmhurst goalie...with ~30 seconds left on their man down. Super entertaining team to watch.
Re: FanLax Forum Poll
IWU is fun to watch! There's a lot of talent in Illinois. Any thoughts on when IWU might challenge Denison - OWU for midwestern supremacy and any thoughts on when they might vie for Final 4s?
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They are relentless.
Good news is they have beaten OWU 2 straight times and 3 out of 4.
Bad news is, OOC has to continue to get stronger, but some teams may not want to play this team because of their style.
Cant lose to Southwestern and must continue to beat SVU. Maybe replace Depauw with Kenyon/Witt and keep Dickinson (cancelled cause of Covid last year).
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The bad news is ....... they've gotten smoked by Denison the 2x they've played - 25-11 and 25-9.SouthernLaxGenius wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 10:41 pmThey are relentless.
Good news is they have beaten OWU 2 straight times and 3 out of 4.
Bad news is .....
IWU has been playing this exciting, attacking style for several years now. And this is not the 1st time this very question has been asked. However when they get to the tournament and play a disciplined (read well coached), talented team that can take care of the ball and has a good faceoff capability... they get neutered. In '17 and '18 that's exactly what they ran into in Denison and the results (see above) weren't pretty. In '19 they were slated to try their luck with Denison again in the tournament but got derailed and upset by Rhodes 22-9.
A side note... it was in that 2017 game that the current record for goals scored in a single NCAA Tournament game (all levels) was set by Denison's #2, Spencer Butler ... he had 11 that game.
So before we should even consider IWU a Final 4 team, they need to learn to play a brand of lacrosse that translates into success against truly top level programs. To date that hasn't happened. But hey, this is a new year and perhaps they'll get another shot at measuring themselves against the only true current Kings of the Midwest - at least for the last several years - Denison.
That's why we love this time of year! Particularly this year - with so little OOC play. Who really knows what any one out here in the Midwest has until they show it on the field!
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Let’s pump the brakes on final 4 appearance. Yes, they’ve beat OWU a couple of times. They try hard to play the best OOC schedule they can. No cupcake OOC games for IWU. 2021 you schedule what you can get. They had a nice come from behind win to close out the COVID 2020 season against Washington College after the beating Ursinis put on them. They held it together against CNU until the Captains adjusted and ran away with it and Salisbury embarrassed them a couple season ago. It was like big brother playing keep away. Post season- Denison throttled them and Rhodes beat IWU at their own run and gun game.
IWU can get away with the aggressive style of play in the Midwest. Sloppy turnovers and minimal adjustments get them into trouble. As previously mentioned, well coached teams adjust and find a way to break down IWU.
IWU gets a handful of west coast & Colorado kids to complement the midwest kids. Good raw multi sport athletes. IWU attempts to model a portion of their game after Tufts with half the lacrosse IQ, coaching discipline and unwillingness to adjust (slow the pace, 1 extra pass etc) They accept a ton of turnovers, errant shots and will continue to shoot late in the game. It’s the style they play.
The Southwest loss was a fluke. No excuses but having 10 out for disciplinary reasons didn’t help the cause.
Could IWU get past the 1st weekend in 2021....Maybe....Final four....not a chance.
IWU can get away with the aggressive style of play in the Midwest. Sloppy turnovers and minimal adjustments get them into trouble. As previously mentioned, well coached teams adjust and find a way to break down IWU.
IWU gets a handful of west coast & Colorado kids to complement the midwest kids. Good raw multi sport athletes. IWU attempts to model a portion of their game after Tufts with half the lacrosse IQ, coaching discipline and unwillingness to adjust (slow the pace, 1 extra pass etc) They accept a ton of turnovers, errant shots and will continue to shoot late in the game. It’s the style they play.
The Southwest loss was a fluke. No excuses but having 10 out for disciplinary reasons didn’t help the cause.
Could IWU get past the 1st weekend in 2021....Maybe....Final four....not a chance.
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IWU needs to make the tourney first. CCIW tourney winner is the AQ.LaxFan#2019 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 8:06 am Let’s pump the brakes on final 4 appearance. Yes, they’ve beat OWU a couple of times. They try hard to play the best OOC schedule they can. No cupcake OOC games for IWU. 2021 you schedule what you can get. They had a nice come from behind win to close out the COVID 2020 season against Washington College after the beating Ursinis put on them. They held it together against CNU until the Captains adjusted and ran away with it and Salisbury embarrassed them a couple season ago. It was like big brother playing keep away. Post season- Denison throttled them and Rhodes beat IWU at their own run and gun game.
IWU can get away with the aggressive style of play in the Midwest. Sloppy turnovers and minimal adjustments get them into trouble. As previously mentioned, well coached teams adjust and find a way to break down IWU.
IWU gets a handful of west coast & Colorado kids to complement the midwest kids. Good raw multi sport athletes. IWU attempts to model a portion of their game after Tufts with half the lacrosse IQ, coaching discipline and unwillingness to adjust (slow the pace, 1 extra pass etc) They accept a ton of turnovers, errant shots and will continue to shoot late in the game. It’s the style they play.
The Southwest loss was a fluke. No excuses but having 10 out for disciplinary reasons didn’t help the cause.
Could IWU get past the 1st weekend in 2021....Maybe....Final four....not a chance.
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Absolutely correct. Maybe not correct thread to discuss but IMO North Central has a legit shot at their 1st conference title. For all the reasons stated above, North Central could of easily been the 1 seed. With the addition of Coach Sandford, I look for North Central to be the premier Midwest team in the next few years.laxislife wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 8:31 amIWU needs to make the tourney first. CCIW tourney winner is the AQ.LaxFan#2019 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 8:06 am Let’s pump the brakes on final 4 appearance. Yes, they’ve beat OWU a couple of times. They try hard to play the best OOC schedule they can. No cupcake OOC games for IWU. 2021 you schedule what you can get. They had a nice come from behind win to close out the COVID 2020 season against Washington College after the beating Ursinis put on them. They held it together against CNU until the Captains adjusted and ran away with it and Salisbury embarrassed them a couple season ago. It was like big brother playing keep away. Post season- Denison throttled them and Rhodes beat IWU at their own run and gun game.
IWU can get away with the aggressive style of play in the Midwest. Sloppy turnovers and minimal adjustments get them into trouble. As previously mentioned, well coached teams adjust and find a way to break down IWU.
IWU gets a handful of west coast & Colorado kids to complement the midwest kids. Good raw multi sport athletes. IWU attempts to model a portion of their game after Tufts with half the lacrosse IQ, coaching discipline and unwillingness to adjust (slow the pace, 1 extra pass etc) They accept a ton of turnovers, errant shots and will continue to shoot late in the game. It’s the style they play.
The Southwest loss was a fluke. No excuses but having 10 out for disciplinary reasons didn’t help the cause.
Could IWU get past the 1st weekend in 2021....Maybe....Final four....not a chance.