Loyola Greyhounds 2023

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GreyingHound
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by GreyingHound »

Exlaxbro wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:34 am You have to give this up. The Star system is flawed. Your son will either be able to handle it or not. What he has done to get to Loyola is great but he will start all over again in August. I hope he does well but some biggest contributors have no stars. Ask yourself how many stars Poitras, Evans, Hughes, Rezanka, Evans, etc. had coming in. It doesn’t matter. What matters is if they fit the system and if they can compete at that level. Some have argued on here that Toomey plays favorites and stars likely have nothing to do with that.
+1

Please give up this obsession with high school player ratings, if only for your own sanity. These ratings are completely meaningless. As others have said, there are many, many examples of highly-rated players not producing, and of unheralded players becoming legends. And this happens in every sport.

If you are concerned Toomey doesn't know what he is doing, consider this: Toomey has been coaching since LONG before these star rating systems existed. His record speaks for itself - the smallest school ever to win a D1 championship, multiple conference championships, a regular fixture in the NCAA tournament, etc, etc. He doesn't need Inside Lacrosse to tell him who has talent. And don't get blinded by one disappointing season. Take a look at Toomey's record over the last decade plus. Do you understand how many coaches would kill to have this kind of success? Being this good on a consistent basis is not easy. Heck, Duke started the 2022 season ranked #3 and then didn't even make the tournament. This is the same Duke program that people were calling a dynasty a few years ago. Nothing is a given. Let's not be so quick to second-guess recruiting when things don't go our way. As a Loyola fan for 40+ years, there is no one I would rather have at the helm than Coach Toomey and his staff.

Go Hounds!
Olddog
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Olddog »

GreyingHound wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:11 pm
Exlaxbro wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:34 am You have to give this up. The Star system is flawed. Your son will either be able to handle it or not. What he has done to get to Loyola is great but he will start all over again in August. I hope he does well but some biggest contributors have no stars. Ask yourself how many stars Poitras, Evans, Hughes, Rezanka, Evans, etc. had coming in. It doesn’t matter. What matters is if they fit the system and if they can compete at that level. Some have argued on here that Toomey plays favorites and stars likely have nothing to do with that.
+1

Please give up this obsession with high school player ratings, if only for your own sanity. These ratings are completely meaningless. As others have said, there are many, many examples of highly-rated players not producing, and of unheralded players becoming legends. And this happens in every sport.

If you are concerned Toomey doesn't know what he is doing, consider this: Toomey has been coaching since LONG before these star rating systems existed. His record speaks for itself - the smallest school ever to win a D1 championship, multiple conference championships, a regular fixture in the NCAA tournament, etc, etc. He doesn't need Inside Lacrosse to tell him who has talent. And don't get blinded by one disappointing season. Take a look at Toomey's record over the last decade plus. Do you understand how many coaches would kill to have this kind of success? Being this good on a consistent basis is not easy. Heck, Duke started the 2022 season ranked #3 and then didn't even make the tournament. This is the same Duke program that people were calling a dynasty a few years ago. Nothing is a given. Let's not be so quick to second-guess recruiting when things don't go our way. As a Loyola fan for 40+ years, there is no one I would rather have at the helm than Coach Toomey and his staff.

Go Hounds!
+1

Let's focus on the talented kids that want to join the program and not worry about how many stars IL hands out.

I'm very excited to see this guy. I think he's going to surprise people.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/hso ... 2206220005
Laxmaninamillion
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxmaninamillion »

Yes Austin Cote is a very nice player. Incoming class is loaded. Really looking forward to watching these kids develop and lead Greyhounds.
Laxfan01
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxfan01 »

I can’t understand the complete dismissal of recruiting rankings simply because we don’t do as well in that area as other programs. There is clearly a correlation between rankings and success-just look at this year’s Maryland squad. Or Cornell who has had a couple very good classes. Or both Princeton and Yale. Not to say u certainly can’t underperform w better talent (Hopkins, Duke/UNC this year) it’s just that when that’s the case, It’s more about fit and player development. And then we can look at our guys-I think coach has done as well as anyone at getting the “ranked” guys he wants, along with some diamonds in the rough. There’s certainly no best way to do it, whether it’s taking every top ranked guy u can find, or whether it’s the Towson/Albany/richmond approach where you are looking more at fit and other factors aside from rankings. I mean look at the very top guys that we have had-all have been ranked. Wyers, lindley, olmstead, scanlan (somewhat) Stover, Spencer, ect. Now we are seeing it again with guys like Lindsey, Higgins, Poitras (and hopefully more). The best teams always have a really good balance of ranked guys, as well as more underrated guys coming out that have been developed (Maryland this year, us in 2019, ect).
Laxfan01
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxfan01 »

billyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:06 am I know that I will get blow back from what I am about to say, but we need to look at the root problems of this team. And I know that there is an unwritten rule of parents should not post, but I believe the whole picture needs to been seen. My son is one that may or may not come back next year. It is his decision to make. This team under achieved and did not live up to expectations.

My son has given insight of what occurred.

1. One of the major talking points that the coaches was the culture of Loyola, that players do not leave Loyola, players want to come to Loyola. What we are seeing are multiple players entering the portal for a variety of reasons, which I believe will be discussed below. The culture seems to of self satisfaction and gratification., several players leaving team due to outside issues. There was no leadership from the fifth year players. No holding players accountable for their actions. Sometimes you leaders are not the best players on the team

2. Academics, again a talking point of the program was strong academic support. Not so much, very weak at best. Academic advisor was a joke

3. Loyola seems to take any player no matter what baggage they bring to the program. They will have different rules for different players. Hold some accountable for issues and others not. No consistency. And players see this.

4. Players did not play based on skill, many younger players played because the coaches felt these players would leave the program. Dont get me wrong these players have ability, but were they better than a Jr or Sr. So the feeling on the team is that they sacrificed older players play time to make the younger player happy. Plus it was well known on the team that it is who you know or your parents that got you the edge. there was definitely favoritism

5. Coaching, we did the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different outcome. I read on this board, but we only lost by one. That is a BS excuse. We were beating Rutgers, Hopkins, Army going into the fourth and could not complete the game. Coaches did not coach kids up. We had a 5th year attack that had 40 + turnovers, almost as many turnovers as total points. You had SSDMs that would get beat routinely and no change or correction. And they probably cost a couple of games. Players would not practice all week and still play. These decisions by the coaches cost Loyola a chance to play in the post season. Example, second line midfield, if you put others in there, i am confident they could have put up the same numbers as Bateman, Kamish, Wigley and Hueston

6. Lack of development of players, if they show in practice why not give them opportunities in games.

I know it seems like I am complaining, It is not airing dirty laundry, my son saw playtime, but what i worry about is complacency with this team. I want to see this team be playing Memorial day weekend. But it wont happen if Loyola keeps doing what they did last year
As a former player who has strong connections with those on the team, seeing this post just now is a mixed bag. Points 4, 5, and 6 in my view are complete hogwash based on what I’ve seen/heard from this year all the way to when I played. Some kids are people and just make mistakes because they are, you know, kids. From what I know the culture of the current players is quite strong, and they are all great kids who share the same goals. However, Point number 2 is spot on. Loyola is small school that has rather rigorous academic demands compared to say a state school, w many more “required” courses and extra crap that a kid should generally not have to take in college. With that said, the academic support was incredibly mediocre since my time (within the last decade), and that remains the case today based on what I hear. As good as Coach is, this is an aspect that I’ve felt strongly about and wish it could be taken in a different direction. When there is a problem in the classroom, it is always the kids fault, and there seems to be no concern about what is best for him-it is all about convenience and getting things done, as well as what looks better on paper rather than what the kid actually needs. Additionally, I have felt that for a long time that the program needs to do a better job supporting the mental health of these kids. What I mean by this is that some of the expectations and demands put on these kids, particularly in the off season, are ridiculous in my humble opinion. Some of the fall conditioning, (which coming from a scientific background, the way this is done can give an answer for what has been causing these lagging injuries that we hear about, as well as the why we continually choked leads in the 4th quarter) along with the off the field rules and requirements September-December is a bit ridiculous to be frank. It was that way when I was in school, and while the addition of Manning has been great as far as I know, he only has so much influence on the kids-he isn’t able to control what actually happens during practice. As far as this past year, I mean 6 kids left the team/entered the portal, and I know for a fact that over half of them were completely based around mental health reasons, so clearly this is still the case. So obviously there are clearly some problems, but I would caution folks to trust coach Toomey. If these issues are apparent to myself and others who are connected, then I’m confident he realizes all of this too-just need to trust him and the staffs process. Again there are some problems, but if they are fixed then we’re talking about a final four caliber team next year! If a recruit or parent is reading this-don’t become freaked out and stay away from loyola just because of a down year and some drama. Every big program has problems, and a lot of them have much bigger ones than we do..
Exlaxbro
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Exlaxbro »

Although from what I heard the original post seemed spot on, what you bring up about mental health is likely the most important point. Losing 6 players due to mental health is sad. It is still taboo to talk about but to your point they are kids and have been through a lot lately. I cannot imagine losing part of high school because of a pandemic and then altering college with masks, late start, finals online, etc. Mental health needs to be addressed-especially with the current freshman and sophomore classes and to a degree the incoming class and older guys. Clearly the staff has not addressed this.
PulpExposure
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by PulpExposure »

Laxfan#1969 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am What was Kamish ranked? He was easily trending as the best freshman in the 2019 Loyola class, started at attack and had a star trajectory until a bad injury has hurt his path...Injuries happen but I wish he was 100% the last couple years...he would have been special by now

What was Poitras ranked? He’s in that same category as Kamish. Poitras is really good
Poitras was a 4 star. As was Kamish....

But totally agree. Once a kid steps foot on the campus, throw the rankings and stars right out. They don't matter at that point.
houndace1
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by houndace1 »

Laxfan01 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 pm
billyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:06 am I know that I will get blow back from what I am about to say, but we need to look at the root problems of this team. And I know that there is an unwritten rule of parents should not post, but I believe the whole picture needs to been seen. My son is one that may or may not come back next year. It is his decision to make. This team under achieved and did not live up to expectations.

My son has given insight of what occurred.

1. One of the major talking points that the coaches was the culture of Loyola, that players do not leave Loyola, players want to come to Loyola. What we are seeing are multiple players entering the portal for a variety of reasons, which I believe will be discussed below. The culture seems to of self satisfaction and gratification., several players leaving team due to outside issues. There was no leadership from the fifth year players. No holding players accountable for their actions. Sometimes you leaders are not the best players on the team

2. Academics, again a talking point of the program was strong academic support. Not so much, very weak at best. Academic advisor was a joke

3. Loyola seems to take any player no matter what baggage they bring to the program. They will have different rules for different players. Hold some accountable for issues and others not. No consistency. And players see this.

4. Players did not play based on skill, many younger players played because the coaches felt these players would leave the program. Dont get me wrong these players have ability, but were they better than a Jr or Sr. So the feeling on the team is that they sacrificed older players play time to make the younger player happy. Plus it was well known on the team that it is who you know or your parents that got you the edge. there was definitely favoritism

5. Coaching, we did the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different outcome. I read on this board, but we only lost by one. That is a BS excuse. We were beating Rutgers, Hopkins, Army going into the fourth and could not complete the game. Coaches did not coach kids up. We had a 5th year attack that had 40 + turnovers, almost as many turnovers as total points. You had SSDMs that would get beat routinely and no change or correction. And they probably cost a couple of games. Players would not practice all week and still play. These decisions by the coaches cost Loyola a chance to play in the post season. Example, second line midfield, if you put others in there, i am confident they could have put up the same numbers as Bateman, Kamish, Wigley and Hueston

6. Lack of development of players, if they show in practice why not give them opportunities in games.

I know it seems like I am complaining, It is not airing dirty laundry, my son saw playtime, but what i worry about is complacency with this team. I want to see this team be playing Memorial day weekend. But it wont happen if Loyola keeps doing what they did last year
As a former player who has strong connections with those on the team, seeing this post just now is a mixed bag. Points 4, 5, and 6 in my view are complete hogwash based on what I’ve seen/heard from this year all the way to when I played. Some kids are people and just make mistakes because they are, you know, kids. From what I know the culture of the current players is quite strong, and they are all great kids who share the same goals. However, Point number 2 is spot on. Loyola is small school that has rather rigorous academic demands compared to say a state school, w many more “required” courses and extra crap that a kid should generally not have to take in college. With that said, the academic support was incredibly mediocre since my time (within the last decade), and that remains the case today based on what I hear. As good as Coach is, this is an aspect that I’ve felt strongly about and wish it could be taken in a different direction. When there is a problem in the classroom, it is always the kids fault, and there seems to be no concern about what is best for him-it is all about convenience and getting things done, as well as what looks better on paper rather than what the kid actually needs. Additionally, I have felt that for a long time that the program needs to do a better job supporting the mental health of these kids. What I mean by this is that some of the expectations and demands put on these kids, particularly in the off season, are ridiculous in my humble opinion. Some of the fall conditioning, (which coming from a scientific background, the way this is done can give an answer for what has been causing these lagging injuries that we hear about, as well as the why we continually choked leads in the 4th quarter) along with the off the field rules and requirements September-December is a bit ridiculous to be frank. It was that way when I was in school, and while the addition of Manning has been great as far as I know, he only has so much influence on the kids-he isn’t able to control what actually happens during practice. As far as this past year, I mean 6 kids left the team/entered the portal, and I know for a fact that over half of them were completely based around mental health reasons, so clearly this is still the case. So obviously there are clearly some problems, but I would caution folks to trust coach Toomey. If these issues are apparent to myself and others who are connected, then I’m confident he realizes all of this too-just need to trust him and the staffs process. Again there are some problems, but if they are fixed then we’re talking about a final four caliber team next year! If a recruit or parent is reading this-don’t become freaked out and stay away from loyola just because of a down year and some drama. Every big program has problems, and a lot of them have much bigger ones than we do..
As you are a former player, are you able to elaborate what is highlighted in bold? From what I have heard about the fall conditioning, is that it is EXTREMELY tough and no other school in the country runs or does that much conditioning
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kramerica.inc
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by kramerica.inc »

Exlaxbro wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:49 am Although from what I heard the original post seemed spot on, what you bring up about mental health is likely the most important point. Losing 6 players due to mental health is sad. It is still taboo to talk about but to your point they are kids and have been through a lot lately. I cannot imagine losing part of high school because of a pandemic and then altering college with masks, late start, finals online, etc. Mental health needs to be addressed-especially with the current freshman and sophomore classes and to a degree the incoming class and older guys. Clearly the staff has not addressed this.
For clarificaton purposes, he said 3 of 6 kids. Which is still 3 too many. The pandemic has created its own issues in mental health. And then with a back log of fresh and soph players who are living with the constant "exception" and rule changing, on top of not seeing what they believe is enough playing time. The transition from being the absolute hometown stud in hs to the low man on totem pole in college can be very hard for many kids to accept and deal with. Saw it first hand in college with a teammate from LI.

Also, to be fair, prior to the pandemic, "mental health" was also the catch-all reason given for kids entering the portal. And this very often included being "home-sick." It's a way to say you want to go somewhere else for a fresh start, without bashing the staff, or being seen as a team-jumper, or as an explanation as to why your grades aren't what they should be.
Laxmaninamillion
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxmaninamillion »

PulpExposure wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:59 am
Laxfan#1969 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am What was Kamish ranked? He was easily trending as the best freshman in the 2019 Loyola class, started at attack and had a star trajectory until a bad injury has hurt his path...Injuries happen but I wish he was 100% the last couple years...he would have been special by now

What was Poitras ranked? He’s in that same category as Kamish. Poitras is really good
Poitras was a 4 star. As was Kamish....

But totally agree. Once a kid steps foot on the campus, throw the rankings and stars right out. They don't matter at that point.

So James, Kamish, Lindsey, Poitras and Higgins, the five top offensive players from last year’s team were all four star recruits?? And Wyers who is the top defender? And Staut and Tietelbaum who will be competing for the goalie spot were four stars? And Pocheko our FOGO was a four star? Amazing that rankings don’t matter once you are in college. Clearly Loyola’s top players have also been the highest ranked recruits. Me thinks that IL does a pretty good job of ranking kids and Loyola has done a pretty good job of recruiting these same kids. Can’t wait to see this year’s incoming class. By far the highest “ranked” class in years for Charlie and the boys.
houndace1
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by houndace1 »

Laxmaninamillion wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:38 am
PulpExposure wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:59 am
Laxfan#1969 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am What was Kamish ranked? He was easily trending as the best freshman in the 2019 Loyola class, started at attack and had a star trajectory until a bad injury has hurt his path...Injuries happen but I wish he was 100% the last couple years...he would have been special by now

What was Poitras ranked? He’s in that same category as Kamish. Poitras is really good
Poitras was a 4 star. As was Kamish....

But totally agree. Once a kid steps foot on the campus, throw the rankings and stars right out. They don't matter at that point.

So James, Kamish, Lindsey, Poitras and Higgins, the five top offensive players from last year’s team were all four star recruits?? And Wyers who is the top defender? And Staut and Tietelbaum who will be competing for the goalie spot were four stars? And Pocheko our FOGO was a four star? Amazing that rankings don’t matter once you are in college. Clearly Loyola’s top players have also been the highest ranked recruits. Me thinks that IL does a pretty good job of ranking kids and Loyola has done a pretty good job of recruiting these same kids. Can’t wait to see this year’s incoming class. By far the highest “ranked” class in years for Charlie and the boys.
Because rankings TYPICALLY do not directly correlate to on the field success.

The team had 4 star guys in the past who either left, or did not see Playing time. Yes a ton of the remaining players who got significant minutes are 4 stars but there’s been others who were not even ranked by IL’s system that contributed meaningful minutes in years past.

Paul Volante, Ryder Harkins, Zac Davliakos, Zach sirico, Scott Ratliff, Matt Hughes, Dan wigley I think was a 3 star. heck, the entire 2012 national team wasn’t even ranked. The 2016 team had at most 5-10 four star players on the team.

My point is to your argument- just because a class has stars and rankings and the glitz glam, does not mean they will be successful right off the bat. Should some of these new kids get PT with the youth movement? Yes, but to succeed you need to take some lumps
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Laxmaninamillion
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxmaninamillion »

houndace1 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:53 am
Laxmaninamillion wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:38 am
PulpExposure wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:59 am
Laxfan#1969 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am What was Kamish ranked? He was easily trending as the best freshman in the 2019 Loyola class, started at attack and had a star trajectory until a bad injury has hurt his path...Injuries happen but I wish he was 100% the last couple years...he would have been special by now

What was Poitras ranked? He’s in that same category as Kamish. Poitras is really good
Poitras was a 4 star. As was Kamish....

But totally agree. Once a kid steps foot on the campus, throw the rankings and stars right out. They don't matter at that point.

So James, Kamish, Lindsey, Poitras and Higgins, the five top offensive players from last year’s team were all four star recruits?? And Wyers who is the top defender? And Staut and Tietelbaum who will be competing for the goalie spot were four stars? And Pocheko our FOGO was a four star? Amazing that rankings don’t matter once you are in college. Clearly Loyola’s top players have also been the highest ranked recruits. Me thinks that IL does a pretty good job of ranking kids and Loyola has done a pretty good job of recruiting these same kids. Can’t wait to see this year’s incoming class. By far the highest “ranked” class in years for Charlie and the boys.
Because rankings TYPICALLY do not directly correlate to on the field success.

The team had 4 star guys in the past who either left, or did not see Playing time. Yes a ton of the remaining players who got significant minutes are 4 stars but there’s been others who were not even ranked by IL’s system that contributed meaningful minutes in years past.

Paul Volante, Ryder Harkins, Zac Davliakos, Zach sirico, Scott Ratliff, Matt Hughes, Dan wigley I think was a 3 star. heck, the entire 2012 national team wasn’t even ranked. The 2016 team had at most 5-10 four star players on the team.

My point is to your argument- just because a class has stars and rankings and the glitz glam, does not mean they will be successful right off the bat. Should some of these new kids get PT with the youth movement? Yes, but to succeed you need to take some lumps
I agree with you 100%. My point is that the more highly ranked recruits you have the better the chance of being successful. Not all pan out (as I pointed out last week when I commented on the 11 players ranked in top 100). Many of them do. I’m looking forward to seeing the 2021 kids (McGory and Dixon) as well as the highly ranked recruits in my son’s 2022 class next year. Think there is a very good nucleus of veterans and hopefully some of these younger guys can contribute more than they did last year.

That was my complaint all year long (and which I got blasted for here on a regular basis). The older guys, especially the second group of middies, weren’t productive and instead of seeing what some of the young guys could do Loyola stick with the vets and we saw what that got them. Hoping things change and staff sees the error in their ways
PulpExposure
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by PulpExposure »

Laxmaninamillion wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:09 am
houndace1 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:53 am
Laxmaninamillion wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:38 am
PulpExposure wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:59 am
Laxfan#1969 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am What was Kamish ranked? He was easily trending as the best freshman in the 2019 Loyola class, started at attack and had a star trajectory until a bad injury has hurt his path...Injuries happen but I wish he was 100% the last couple years...he would have been special by now

What was Poitras ranked? He’s in that same category as Kamish. Poitras is really good
Poitras was a 4 star. As was Kamish....

But totally agree. Once a kid steps foot on the campus, throw the rankings and stars right out. They don't matter at that point.

So James, Kamish, Lindsey, Poitras and Higgins, the five top offensive players from last year’s team were all four star recruits?? And Wyers who is the top defender? And Staut and Tietelbaum who will be competing for the goalie spot were four stars? And Pocheko our FOGO was a four star? Amazing that rankings don’t matter once you are in college. Clearly Loyola’s top players have also been the highest ranked recruits. Me thinks that IL does a pretty good job of ranking kids and Loyola has done a pretty good job of recruiting these same kids. Can’t wait to see this year’s incoming class. By far the highest “ranked” class in years for Charlie and the boys.
Because rankings TYPICALLY do not directly correlate to on the field success.

The team had 4 star guys in the past who either left, or did not see Playing time. Yes a ton of the remaining players who got significant minutes are 4 stars but there’s been others who were not even ranked by IL’s system that contributed meaningful minutes in years past.

Paul Volante, Ryder Harkins, Zac Davliakos, Zach sirico, Scott Ratliff, Matt Hughes, Dan wigley I think was a 3 star. heck, the entire 2012 national team wasn’t even ranked. The 2016 team had at most 5-10 four star players on the team.

My point is to your argument- just because a class has stars and rankings and the glitz glam, does not mean they will be successful right off the bat. Should some of these new kids get PT with the youth movement? Yes, but to succeed you need to take some lumps
I agree with you 100%. My point is that the more highly ranked recruits you have the better the chance of being successful. Not all pan out (as I pointed out last week when I commented on the 11 players ranked in top 100). Many of them do. I’m looking forward to seeing the 2021 kids (McGory and Dixon) as well as the highly ranked recruits in my son’s 2022 class next year. Think there is a very good nucleus of veterans and hopefully some of these younger guys can contribute more than they did last year.

That was my complaint all year long (and which I got blasted for here on a regular basis). The older guys, especially the second group of middies, weren’t productive and instead of seeing what some of the young guys could do Loyola stick with the vets and we saw what that got them. Hoping things change and staff sees the error in their ways
Yes - that I think we all agree on. You get the most talented kids you can get on campus...and Inside Lacrosse is the only recruiting service to rank kids. Well there's NLF but they're even more of a crapshoot. But once they step foot on campus, the rankings don't really matter - it's all about who is the most talented with the most drive to get better? You play the best kids you have. And yeah, in the situation you're describing, why not play the younger kids and let them see what you're getting?
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

This has been one of the more interesting discussions, I've read, both the weight/non-weight one can put on rankings and the discussion of various challenges kids face, whether Loyola specifically or more generally.

IMO, many of the issues are endemic to D1 athletics more generally, the over training physically and the mental stress of dealing with college, academics, social etc when tired and worn out from the exercise and competition demands.

These are not unique to Loyola, nor is the lack of sufficient attention to support unique to them. Indeed, it exists at many if not all of the schools that believe that academics need to play as important, or more often more important, role than the sport. Whereas the coaches, and usually the players too, are disposed to put the emphasis very much on sport-first, everything else second. That's natural, and I'm not criticizing particular coaches, much less saying that Toomey is the issue...rather, I'm commenting more generally that a lax program at a school at which it can be anticipated that there's academic pressure needs to think hard about how to help their athletes manage those demands, including how to help them realize that they are indeed even more important than the sport. Some of these adjustments may require negotiation with the administration.

I've written, usually in the Ivy threads, how simple improvements in thinking about how conditioning is managed, how practices are scheduled (eg not practicing beyond when the food hall is open...or getting it kept open!), policies enabling players to miss practices for labs, major tests, etc. Schools and programs that address these issues well are more likely to attract athletes that fit the overall demands and enable them to perform at their peak come game days. But it takes attention....and consistent such. Which hasn't been the traditional purview of coaches...

In the recruit rankings, IMO, they are obviously inexact, and they likewise are belied by the many examples of players emerging as top stars who were earlier unnoticed, unranked, and likewise the many examples of ranked and touted players not turning out as predicted. Many variables.

But overall, the rankings generally give a sound sense of probability of solid contribution, imperfect as they may be...on the other hand, they do NOT predict team cohesion.

IMO, Toomey has been a very productive coach and I'd be willing to bet that will continue.
Laxfan#1969
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:23 pm

Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxfan#1969 »

houndace1 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:19 am
Laxfan01 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 pm
billyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:06 am I know that I will get blow back from what I am about to say, but we need to look at the root problems of this team. And I know that there is an unwritten rule of parents should not post, but I believe the whole picture needs to been seen. My son is one that may or may not come back next year. It is his decision to make. This team under achieved and did not live up to expectations.

My son has given insight of what occurred.

1. One of the major talking points that the coaches was the culture of Loyola, that players do not leave Loyola, players want to come to Loyola. What we are seeing are multiple players entering the portal for a variety of reasons, which I believe will be discussed below. The culture seems to of self satisfaction and gratification., several players leaving team due to outside issues. There was no leadership from the fifth year players. No holding players accountable for their actions. Sometimes you leaders are not the best players on the team

2. Academics, again a talking point of the program was strong academic support. Not so much, very weak at best. Academic advisor was a joke

3. Loyola seems to take any player no matter what baggage they bring to the program. They will have different rules for different players. Hold some accountable for issues and others not. No consistency. And players see this.

4. Players did not play based on skill, many younger players played because the coaches felt these players would leave the program. Dont get me wrong these players have ability, but were they better than a Jr or Sr. So the feeling on the team is that they sacrificed older players play time to make the younger player happy. Plus it was well known on the team that it is who you know or your parents that got you the edge. there was definitely favoritism

5. Coaching, we did the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different outcome. I read on this board, but we only lost by one. That is a BS excuse. We were beating Rutgers, Hopkins, Army going into the fourth and could not complete the game. Coaches did not coach kids up. We had a 5th year attack that had 40 + turnovers, almost as many turnovers as total points. You had SSDMs that would get beat routinely and no change or correction. And they probably cost a couple of games. Players would not practice all week and still play. These decisions by the coaches cost Loyola a chance to play in the post season. Example, second line midfield, if you put others in there, i am confident they could have put up the same numbers as Bateman, Kamish, Wigley and Hueston

6. Lack of development of players, if they show in practice why not give them opportunities in games.

I know it seems like I am complaining, It is not airing dirty laundry, my son saw playtime, but what i worry about is complacency with this team. I want to see this team be playing Memorial day weekend. But it wont happen if Loyola keeps doing what they did last year
As a former player who has strong connections with those on the team, seeing this post just now is a mixed bag. Points 4, 5, and 6 in my view are complete hogwash based on what I’ve seen/heard from this year all the way to when I played. Some kids are people and just make mistakes because they are, you know, kids. From what I know the culture of the current players is quite strong, and they are all great kids who share the same goals. However, Point number 2 is spot on. Loyola is small school that has rather rigorous academic demands compared to say a state school, w many more “required” courses and extra crap that a kid should generally not have to take in college. With that said, the academic support was incredibly mediocre since my time (within the last decade), and that remains the case today based on what I hear. As good as Coach is, this is an aspect that I’ve felt strongly about and wish it could be taken in a different direction. When there is a problem in the classroom, it is always the kids fault, and there seems to be no concern about what is best for him-it is all about convenience and getting things done, as well as what looks better on paper rather than what the kid actually needs. Additionally, I have felt that for a long time that the program needs to do a better job supporting the mental health of these kids. What I mean by this is that some of the expectations and demands put on these kids, particularly in the off season, are ridiculous in my humble opinion. Some of the fall conditioning, (which coming from a scientific background, the way this is done can give an answer for what has been causing these lagging injuries that we hear about, as well as the why we continually choked leads in the 4th quarter) along with the off the field rules and requirements September-December is a bit ridiculous to be frank. It was that way when I was in school, and while the addition of Manning has been great as far as I know, he only has so much influence on the kids-he isn’t able to control what actually happens during practice. As far as this past year, I mean 6 kids left the team/entered the portal, and I know for a fact that over half of them were completely based around mental health reasons, so clearly this is still the case. So obviously there are clearly some problems, but I would caution folks to trust coach Toomey. If these issues are apparent to myself and others who are connected, then I’m confident he realizes all of this too-just need to trust him and the staffs process. Again there are some problems, but if they are fixed then we’re talking about a final four caliber team next year! If a recruit or parent is reading this-don’t become freaked out and stay away from loyola just because of a down year and some drama. Every big program has problems, and a lot of them have much bigger ones than we do..
As you are a former player, are you able to elaborate what is highlighted in bold? From what I have heard about the fall conditioning, is that it is EXTREMELY tough and no other school in the country runs or does that much conditioning
Not true. (That Loyola is the toughest) Most schools have the way they like to run fall, but I will say most are very very difficult. Fall sucks. It’s hard and it’s thankless and Loyola is no different than most schools. Big Ten schools are very hard on the athletes and the same goes for ACC schools. They all work their ass off in the fall.

It’s no easy task playing a D1 sport. Loyola is tough, but so are most others.

Ivy’s are the only ones that might be less because they have their own league rules and limits on practice hours
Laxfan#1969
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:23 pm

Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxfan#1969 »

Laxmaninamillion wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:38 am
PulpExposure wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:59 am
Laxfan#1969 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am What was Kamish ranked? He was easily trending as the best freshman in the 2019 Loyola class, started at attack and had a star trajectory until a bad injury has hurt his path...Injuries happen but I wish he was 100% the last couple years...he would have been special by now

What was Poitras ranked? He’s in that same category as Kamish. Poitras is really good
Poitras was a 4 star. As was Kamish....

But totally agree. Once a kid steps foot on the campus, throw the rankings and stars right out. They don't matter at that point.

So James, Kamish, Lindsey, Poitras and Higgins, the five top offensive players from last year’s team were all four star recruits?? And Wyers who is the top defender? And Staut and Tietelbaum who will be competing for the goalie spot were four stars? And Pocheko our FOGO was a four star? Amazing that rankings don’t matter once you are in college. Clearly Loyola’s top players have also been the highest ranked recruits. Me thinks that IL does a pretty good job of ranking kids and Loyola has done a pretty good job of recruiting these same kids. Can’t wait to see this year’s incoming class. By far the highest “ranked” class in years for Charlie and the boys.
James was player of the year in Ohio in 2019
Kamish was player of the year in Michigan in 2019

That’s actually going out and finding the best guys from non hot bed areas and brining them home here to Maryland...and they have both proven they can produce and be very very good at a high level...just need good health

Anyway, I’m bullish on this team and program. Last year was an odd year. It’s over. This team has a great core...you’ve listed them all above. There is room to layer in some young talent...it won’t be all of them playing...but 3-4 guys if ready will have opportunity to get after it and earn time. Last year was a log jam...this year opportunities are there and frankly a few guys need to step up...you need 10 good offensive options...at least...we have 5 locked in...we need at least 5 more

The only other thing I’d say and not directed at anyone...but you take a recruiting class of 10-12 kids...you’re generally only gonna get 5-7 in each class that stick and play. The data in every program will suggest as much...even these kids we think might be studs..1-2 will flair out for different reasons. And this is all programs...not just Loyola. If you can get 50-60% of a class to become contributors...then that’s a really solid class
Laxfan01
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:50 am

Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by Laxfan01 »

Laxfan#1969 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:38 pm
houndace1 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:19 am
Laxfan01 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 pm
billyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:06 am I know that I will get blow back from what I am about to say, but we need to look at the root problems of this team. And I know that there is an unwritten rule of parents should not post, but I believe the whole picture needs to been seen. My son is one that may or may not come back next year. It is his decision to make. This team under achieved and did not live up to expectations.

My son has given insight of what occurred.

1. One of the major talking points that the coaches was the culture of Loyola, that players do not leave Loyola, players want to come to Loyola. What we are seeing are multiple players entering the portal for a variety of reasons, which I believe will be discussed below. The culture seems to of self satisfaction and gratification., several players leaving team due to outside issues. There was no leadership from the fifth year players. No holding players accountable for their actions. Sometimes you leaders are not the best players on the team

2. Academics, again a talking point of the program was strong academic support. Not so much, very weak at best. Academic advisor was a joke

3. Loyola seems to take any player no matter what baggage they bring to the program. They will have different rules for different players. Hold some accountable for issues and others not. No consistency. And players see this.

4. Players did not play based on skill, many younger players played because the coaches felt these players would leave the program. Dont get me wrong these players have ability, but were they better than a Jr or Sr. So the feeling on the team is that they sacrificed older players play time to make the younger player happy. Plus it was well known on the team that it is who you know or your parents that got you the edge. there was definitely favoritism

5. Coaching, we did the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different outcome. I read on this board, but we only lost by one. That is a BS excuse. We were beating Rutgers, Hopkins, Army going into the fourth and could not complete the game. Coaches did not coach kids up. We had a 5th year attack that had 40 + turnovers, almost as many turnovers as total points. You had SSDMs that would get beat routinely and no change or correction. And they probably cost a couple of games. Players would not practice all week and still play. These decisions by the coaches cost Loyola a chance to play in the post season. Example, second line midfield, if you put others in there, i am confident they could have put up the same numbers as Bateman, Kamish, Wigley and Hueston

6. Lack of development of players, if they show in practice why not give them opportunities in games.

I know it seems like I am complaining, It is not airing dirty laundry, my son saw playtime, but what i worry about is complacency with this team. I want to see this team be playing Memorial day weekend. But it wont happen if Loyola keeps doing what they did last year
As a former player who has strong connections with those on the team, seeing this post just now is a mixed bag. Points 4, 5, and 6 in my view are complete hogwash based on what I’ve seen/heard from this year all the way to when I played. Some kids are people and just make mistakes because they are, you know, kids. From what I know the culture of the current players is quite strong, and they are all great kids who share the same goals. However, Point number 2 is spot on. Loyola is small school that has rather rigorous academic demands compared to say a state school, w many more “required” courses and extra crap that a kid should generally not have to take in college. With that said, the academic support was incredibly mediocre since my time (within the last decade), and that remains the case today based on what I hear. As good as Coach is, this is an aspect that I’ve felt strongly about and wish it could be taken in a different direction. When there is a problem in the classroom, it is always the kids fault, and there seems to be no concern about what is best for him-it is all about convenience and getting things done, as well as what looks better on paper rather than what the kid actually needs. Additionally, I have felt that for a long time that the program needs to do a better job supporting the mental health of these kids. What I mean by this is that some of the expectations and demands put on these kids, particularly in the off season, are ridiculous in my humble opinion. Some of the fall conditioning, (which coming from a scientific background, the way this is done can give an answer for what has been causing these lagging injuries that we hear about, as well as the why we continually choked leads in the 4th quarter) along with the off the field rules and requirements September-December is a bit ridiculous to be frank. It was that way when I was in school, and while the addition of Manning has been great as far as I know, he only has so much influence on the kids-he isn’t able to control what actually happens during practice. As far as this past year, I mean 6 kids left the team/entered the portal, and I know for a fact that over half of them were completely based around mental health reasons, so clearly this is still the case. So obviously there are clearly some problems, but I would caution folks to trust coach Toomey. If these issues are apparent to myself and others who are connected, then I’m confident he realizes all of this too-just need to trust him and the staffs process. Again there are some problems, but if they are fixed then we’re talking about a final four caliber team next year! If a recruit or parent is reading this-don’t become freaked out and stay away from loyola just because of a down year and some drama. Every big program has problems, and a lot of them have much bigger ones than we do..
As you are a former player, are you able to elaborate what is highlighted in bold? From what I have heard about the fall conditioning, is that it is EXTREMELY tough and no other school in the country runs or does that much conditioning
Not true. (That Loyola is the toughest) Most schools have the way they like to run fall, but I will say most are very very difficult. Fall sucks. It’s hard and it’s thankless and Loyola is no different than most schools. Big Ten schools are very hard on the athletes and the same goes for ACC schools. They all work their ass off in the fall.

It’s no easy task playing a D1 sport. Loyola is tough, but so are most others.

Ivy’s are the only ones that might be less because they have their own league rules and limits on practice hours
That’s exactly it-I’m likely not as caught up on the rules surrounding the IVY league as others are but I know that like you said, they practice significantly less than ACC/Big ten programs. With that being said, the Ivy League was by far the most successful league in the country this season, as well as arguably the most consistent conference since 2020. This has because of many reasons-great coaching, being ahead of the game in the strength/conditioning department (Yale), and some of the their different policies that allow for the programs to efficiently peak at the right time in May, rather than in February/March. No doubt that loyola shares many of the same problems as the rest of Division 1, but I think it’s important to note some of the ways that I think the program could improve upon based on what I know. No doubt that they have the talent, coaching staff, and in my opinion culture to make a run late in the tournament. Just need to keep cleaning up the little things that become big later on
lorin
Posts: 703
Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 am

Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by lorin »

Laxfan01 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:51 pm
Laxfan#1969 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:38 pm
houndace1 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:19 am
Laxfan01 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 pm
billyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:06 am I know that I will get blow back from what I am about to say, but we need to look at the root problems of this team. And I know that there is an unwritten rule of parents should not post, but I believe the whole picture needs to been seen. My son is one that may or may not come back next year. It is his decision to make. This team under achieved and did not live up to expectations.

My son has given insight of what occurred.

1. One of the major talking points that the coaches was the culture of Loyola, that players do not leave Loyola, players want to come to Loyola. What we are seeing are multiple players entering the portal for a variety of reasons, which I believe will be discussed below. The culture seems to of self satisfaction and gratification., several players leaving team due to outside issues. There was no leadership from the fifth year players. No holding players accountable for their actions. Sometimes you leaders are not the best players on the team

2. Academics, again a talking point of the program was strong academic support. Not so much, very weak at best. Academic advisor was a joke

3. Loyola seems to take any player no matter what baggage they bring to the program. They will have different rules for different players. Hold some accountable for issues and others not. No consistency. And players see this.

4. Players did not play based on skill, many younger players played because the coaches felt these players would leave the program. Dont get me wrong these players have ability, but were they better than a Jr or Sr. So the feeling on the team is that they sacrificed older players play time to make the younger player happy. Plus it was well known on the team that it is who you know or your parents that got you the edge. there was definitely favoritism

5. Coaching, we did the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different outcome. I read on this board, but we only lost by one. That is a BS excuse. We were beating Rutgers, Hopkins, Army going into the fourth and could not complete the game. Coaches did not coach kids up. We had a 5th year attack that had 40 + turnovers, almost as many turnovers as total points. You had SSDMs that would get beat routinely and no change or correction. And they probably cost a couple of games. Players would not practice all week and still play. These decisions by the coaches cost Loyola a chance to play in the post season. Example, second line midfield, if you put others in there, i am confident they could have put up the same numbers as Bateman, Kamish, Wigley and Hueston

6. Lack of development of players, if they show in practice why not give them opportunities in games.

I know it seems like I am complaining, It is not airing dirty laundry, my son saw playtime, but what i worry about is complacency with this team. I want to see this team be playing Memorial day weekend. But it wont happen if Loyola keeps doing what they did last year
As a former player who has strong connections with those on the team, seeing this post just now is a mixed bag. Points 4, 5, and 6 in my view are complete hogwash based on what I’ve seen/heard from this year all the way to when I played. Some kids are people and just make mistakes because they are, you know, kids. From what I know the culture of the current players is quite strong, and they are all great kids who share the same goals. However, Point number 2 is spot on. Loyola is small school that has rather rigorous academic demands compared to say a state school, w many more “required” courses and extra crap that a kid should generally not have to take in college. With that said, the academic support was incredibly mediocre since my time (within the last decade), and that remains the case today based on what I hear. As good as Coach is, this is an aspect that I’ve felt strongly about and wish it could be taken in a different direction. When there is a problem in the classroom, it is always the kids fault, and there seems to be no concern about what is best for him-it is all about convenience and getting things done, as well as what looks better on paper rather than what the kid actually needs. Additionally, I have felt that for a long time that the program needs to do a better job supporting the mental health of these kids. What I mean by this is that some of the expectations and demands put on these kids, particularly in the off season, are ridiculous in my humble opinion. Some of the fall conditioning, (which coming from a scientific background, the way this is done can give an answer for what has been causing these lagging injuries that we hear about, as well as the why we continually choked leads in the 4th quarter) along with the off the field rules and requirements September-December is a bit ridiculous to be frank. It was that way when I was in school, and while the addition of Manning has been great as far as I know, he only has so much influence on the kids-he isn’t able to control what actually happens during practice. As far as this past year, I mean 6 kids left the team/entered the portal, and I know for a fact that over half of them were completely based around mental health reasons, so clearly this is still the case. So obviously there are clearly some problems, but I would caution folks to trust coach Toomey. If these issues are apparent to myself and others who are connected, then I’m confident he realizes all of this too-just need to trust him and the staffs process. Again there are some problems, but if they are fixed then we’re talking about a final four caliber team next year! If a recruit or parent is reading this-don’t become freaked out and stay away from loyola just because of a down year and some drama. Every big program has problems, and a lot of them have much bigger ones than we do..
As you are a former player, are you able to elaborate what is highlighted in bold? From what I have heard about the fall conditioning, is that it is EXTREMELY tough and no other school in the country runs or does that much conditioning
Not true. (That Loyola is the toughest) Most schools have the way they like to run fall, but I will say most are very very difficult. Fall sucks. It’s hard and it’s thankless and Loyola is no different than most schools. Big Ten schools are very hard on the athletes and the same goes for ACC schools. They all work their ass off in the fall.

It’s no easy task playing a D1 sport. Loyola is tough, but so are most others.

Ivy’s are the only ones that might be less because they have their own league rules and limits on practice hours
That’s exactly it-I’m likely not as caught up on the rules surrounding the IVY league as others are but I know that like you said, they practice significantly less than ACC/Big ten programs. With that being said, the Ivy League was by far the most successful league in the country this season, as well as arguably the most consistent conference since 2020. This has because of many reasons-great coaching, being ahead of the game in the strength/conditioning department (Yale), and some of the their different policies that allow for the programs to efficiently peak at the right time in May, rather than in February/March. No doubt that loyola shares many of the same problems as the rest of Division 1, but I think it’s important to note some of the ways that I think the program could improve upon based on what I know. No doubt that they have the talent, coaching staff, and in my opinion culture to make a run late in the tournament. Just need to keep cleaning up the little things that become big later on
This is great stuff, please keep the post coming. Also when it comes to academics Loyola should not even be in the Patriot League. They have a major advantage when it comes recruiting.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Just to be clear, while the Ivies do limit the # of practice hours with coaches, there's a ton of pressure on conditioning and strength work done without the coaches. IMO, they, too, over do it relative to actual benefit. Diminishing returns can turn negative.

But more important than the total amount of work is the efficiency and the effectiveness for the specific athletic demands. There was and may in some cases continue to be, IMO, an over attention to putting on muscle bulk, raw "strength", rather than agility and stability, given natural body size. That can, and IMO, does increase injury rates under the stresses of the actual sport requirements.

Coaches can put too much pressure on certain types of metrics, incentivizing work that ultimately is counterproductive.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Loyola Greyhounds 2023

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

lorin wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:27 am
This is great stuff, please keep the post coming. Also when it comes to academics Loyola should not even be in the Patriot League. They have a major advantage when it comes recruiting.
wink emoji implied... ;)
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