NCAA reorg imminent

D1 Mens Lacrosse
Post Reply
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:33 am
44WeWantMore wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:42 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:39 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:31 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 pm I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.
Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 pm And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.
Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?
If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.
But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.
EXACTLY my point! They pay cash tuition and room and board. They stop playing for the "team" and they can figure out another way to pay.... Not saying its something I think is "right" - just saying it is the logical conclusion of the path we are on.
Who pays for the academic advisors? do they get separate housing from the rest of campus as is commonplace now? Is their split admissions to allow these folks as students since they don’t mostly qualify under typical admissions? What about board which is often unique and separate?

This makes some sense as separation but I think executing a formal split that’s truly clean and leaves no fingerprints on the institution is far more difficult in execution and I would expect a college administration cohort to execute it well in general which would leave chasms for potential narrowly observed conflicts or overlaps.

Who determines fair market value of stadium and facility leases? That would be open to challenges. The transfer pricing and college accounting is such a joke that I don’t think folks appreciate the difficulty in unwinding it would be. You’ve got municipal finance, SEC and MSRB looking at it potentially.

What about tax breaks to non profit higher Ed institutions? Any event edit that flows through ties then back to the institution including the tax exemption in the bond funding.

I don’t know but the idea that colleges can hive it off clean and still have the economic incentive to support these monstrosities without any oversight, control or accountability seems specious. The answer I see that it’ll be easy or whatever sound like my banker colleagues (I’m out now myself from that racket) who model and pitch M&A deals on excel and ppt but the outcomes never seem to look anything like the model. It’s lacking any respect for operations and execution which we know in general these institutions are often not very good at.
Last edited by Farfromgeneva on Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:38 am
wgdsr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:03 pm
ggait wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:26 pm A lot of the above discussion is quite random and wrong. Let me set a few things straight:

1. The players are ALWAYS going to be students. ALWAYS. The schools have spent the last 10 years furiously and expensively litigating primarily to establish this principle. And they have been completely successful in establishing that principle. Having won on that principle, they will NEVER abandon that. NEVER.

Athletes being students, per the schools in sworn testimony to federal judges, is THE CORE CONCEPT of college sports. It fundamentally defines the college sports business (and all now agree/admit that it is a business) as a product (under anti-trust law principles) distinct from the pro sports business. The schools have ZERO interest in operating the Tuscaloosa Crimson football team and NEVER will do that.

Back in the olden days, schools like Yale and Chicago did operate commercial teams that featured non-students. The NCAA came into existence over 100 years ago to get rid of that. That concept is, and will remain, dead dead dead dead dead.

The only real proposal for a pro/college sports league was the HBCU-oriented Professional Collegiate League. The PCL concept, which makes a lot of sense on a whiteboard, has been really struggling. So no evidence that such concept would ever catch on more broadly.

2. Title IX has NOTHING to do with NIL. NOTHING. The whole concept of NIL, after all, is that it is separate from the schools and personal. Title IX has NOTHING to do with regulating what a college athlete makes in his side hussle as a waiter, Uber driver or Instagram influencer. Because non-athlete students are also free and unregulated to have side hussles too.

Kids can make money on side hussles, get their earnings reported to the IRS, and then pay taxes. Doesn't matter if you are an athlete or not. Doesn't matter if the job is working at Starbucks or doing TV commercials for the local car dealer.

In fact, the whole NIL being separate is the key thing that will maintain the current system and allow it to continue to evolve. T9 would be strongly implicated if schools started paying actual salaries and then adjusted the salaries to reflect actual market value. Instead, the schools stay removed from all that. If star QB makes more on the side than the XC runner, so what? That's the market, not the school, making that happen.
holy sh**te batman! i agree with ggait on something! and some title 9 @ that!
my nit would be never. think we have this system in various forms for 5 or 10 years. then all bets are off. never's a long time. tho that may be what the proposals are for.
ggait - you are talking inertia. If the students are "working" for a team that happens to license a name and either acquired or leases field space aren't they protected from worker's comp claims? Which is my main understanding of the importance of (insert Cartmann voice) "student athletes"...?

As for the rest of the student athlete farse - does anyone think that the BOV at Alabama gives a rat's behind about purity tests? But in my made up scenario, they would be students - the exact same kind of students there are today, some will take advantage some won't....
I believe it’s “Student Ath-A-lete”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61TMtH3Qw4s
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:54 am
HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:33 am
44WeWantMore wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:42 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:39 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:31 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 pm I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.
Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 pm And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.
Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?
If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.
But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.
EXACTLY my point! They pay cash tuition and room and board. They stop playing for the "team" and they can figure out another way to pay.... Not saying its something I think is "right" - just saying it is the logical conclusion of the path we are on.
Make them pay tuition room and board. Make all of the athletes pay tuition room and board. I believe schools should go the D3 model and let the farm teams become just that.
Would they be eligible for stafford?
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32144
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:54 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:54 am
HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:33 am
44WeWantMore wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:42 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:39 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:31 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 pm I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.
Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?
Farfromgeneva wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 pm And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.
Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?
If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.
But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.
EXACTLY my point! They pay cash tuition and room and board. They stop playing for the "team" and they can figure out another way to pay.... Not saying its something I think is "right" - just saying it is the logical conclusion of the path we are on.
Make them pay tuition room and board. Make all of the athletes pay tuition room and board. I believe schools should go the D3 model and let the farm teams become just that.
Would they be eligible for stafford?
Some would be. I would let the air out of college sports. Let the pro's invest in a farm system. I would do it with kids that want to go to college. People will still watch. We watched scab football and these ghosts NBA teams suffering from COVID. If 20 programs want to do there own thing, let them. Nobody is forcing anyone to go and play a college sport. I would take the model down. You don't need all of these people working in an athletic department. Take the revenue down and reduce the expenses. It's not what comes in, its what is left over.

https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/staff-directory/
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

I was told I was crazy by a close colleague a decade ago when I suggested the NCAA Hs outlasted it’s usefulness for the largest 60-80 university athletics programs. NBA already got ahead a little w g league but meanwhile MLB has been trying to trim its from system for years, almost cut like 40 teams up through AAA like 2yrs ago.

So I agree but I think a much cleaner break will ultimately happen between real student athletes and the rest than these bastardized hybrid systems folks seem to suggest will work out. Maybe in the next 2-3yrs but not over 5-10. And I think that’s good. The quality fo college basketball has declined so precipitously going back to the Duke - Butler final and even before due to a bunch of 18yr olds running around iso and kicking. The reason the Butlers and mid majors have excelled, IMO, is having even if less talented, many more 2-4yr teammates on a court at the same time. Fred Van Vleet was the only top 100 recruit on those Wichita teams that performed well. You can mix in a stud FR like Zaga did w Suggs last year but you still have 2-4 Jr/Srs on the court vs the Kentucky all FR teams.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
User avatar
HooDat
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by HooDat »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:48 pm Who pays for the academic advisors? do they get separate housing from the rest of campus as is commonplace now? Is their split admissions to allow these folks as students since they don’t mostly qualify under typical admissions? What about board which is often unique and separate?

This makes some sense as separation but I think executing a formal split that’s truly clean and leaves no fingerprints on the institution is far more difficult in execution and I would expect a college administration cohort to execute it well in general which would leave chasms for potential narrowly observed conflicts or overlaps.

Who determines fair market value of stadium and facility leases? That would be open to challenges. The transfer pricing and college accounting is such a joke that I don’t think folks appreciate the difficulty in unwinding it would be. You’ve got municipal finance, SEC and MSRB looking at it potentially.

What about tax breaks to non profit higher Ed institutions? Any event edit that flows through ties then back to the institution including the tax exemption in the bond funding.

I don’t know but the idea that colleges can hive it off clean and still have the economic incentive to support these monstrosities without any oversight, control or accountability seems specious.
My assumption is that the dystopian path I am laying out is not followed by all the schools. Ultimately it breaks the schools into two groups: 1) those that don't care about appearances or anything else, they just want to maximize "college" football - I am looking squarely at the SEC here; and 2) those that want student athletes.

This would lead to a complete re-shuffling of the deck, and let the football "have's" take all their marbles and leave. A few programs would be in a very tough spot - ND, Michigan, Stanford. A lot of other schools may be relieved to be done with the facade (the Ivy's, UVA, Duke, Vandy, the Service Academies).

The tax stuff - you got me there. Not sure how all these stadiums were financed; but i am guessing there are plenty of guys in Wall St who would be happy to figure it out for this new league.

re: your question re: Stafford - just like any other student who is working their way through school. Some people tend bar, others play football...
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32144
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:20 pm I was told I was crazy by a close colleague a decade ago when I suggested the NCAA Hs outlasted it’s usefulness for the largest 60-80 university athletics programs. NBA already got ahead a little w g league but meanwhile MLB has been trying to trim its from system for years, almost cut like 40 teams up through AAA like 2yrs ago.

So I agree but I think a much cleaner break will ultimately happen between real student athletes and the rest than these bastardized hybrid systems folks seem to suggest will work out. Maybe in the next 2-3yrs but not over 5-10. And I think that’s good. The quality fo college basketball has declined so precipitously going back to the Duke - Butler final and even before due to a bunch of 18yr olds running around iso and kicking. The reason the Butlers and mid majors have excelled, IMO, is having even if less talented, many more 2-4yr teammates on a court at the same time. Fred Van Vleet was the only top 100 recruit on those Wichita teams that performed well. You can mix in a stud FR like Zaga did w Suggs last year but you still have 2-4 Jr/Srs on the court vs the Kentucky all FR teams.
Yep. Overtime Elite is another pro ball track. If a kid doesn’t value the education, go the pro route. Happens in soccer all the time.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
44WeWantMore
Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:11 pm
Location: Too far from 21218

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by 44WeWantMore »

HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:02 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:48 pm Who pays for the academic advisors? do they get separate housing from the rest of campus as is commonplace now? Is their split admissions to allow these folks as students since they don’t mostly qualify under typical admissions? What about board which is often unique and separate?

This makes some sense as separation but I think executing a formal split that’s truly clean and leaves no fingerprints on the institution is far more difficult in execution and I would expect a college administration cohort to execute it well in general which would leave chasms for potential narrowly observed conflicts or overlaps.

Who determines fair market value of stadium and facility leases? That would be open to challenges. The transfer pricing and college accounting is such a joke that I don’t think folks appreciate the difficulty in unwinding it would be. You’ve got municipal finance, SEC and MSRB looking at it potentially.

What about tax breaks to non profit higher Ed institutions? Any event edit that flows through ties then back to the institution including the tax exemption in the bond funding.

I don’t know but the idea that colleges can hive it off clean and still have the economic incentive to support these monstrosities without any oversight, control or accountability seems specious.
My assumption is that the dystopian path I am laying out is not followed by all the schools. Ultimately it breaks the schools into two groups: 1) those that don't care about appearances or anything else, they just want to maximize "college" football - I am looking squarely at the SEC here; and 2) those that want student athletes.

This would lead to a complete re-shuffling of the deck, and let the football "have's" take all their marbles and leave. A few programs would be in a very tough spot - ND, Michigan, Stanford. A lot of other schools may be relieved to be done with the facade (the Ivy's, UVA, Duke, Vandy, the Service Academies).

The tax stuff - you got me there. Not sure how all these stadiums were financed; but i am guessing there are plenty of guys in Wall St who would be happy to figure it out for this new league.

re: your question re: Stafford - just like any other student who is working their way through school. Some people tend bar, others play football...
I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
User avatar
HooDat
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by HooDat »

44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:05 pm I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Frankly I don't see how a Stanford or a Duke maintain their brands if they elected to go the route of the "SEC". I agree that ND would not decide to go "pro", but in some ways I think it would be harder for them given the importance of football there. With that said - if ND can become the king of true student athlete football, i think that works for their alumni base.I put Michigan in a similar position.

If this kind of melt-down means the rest of "us" can go back to regional conferences against teams that make sense to the student rather than to tv programers - that's a win in my book.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

What’s the economics look like in such a split? Obviously no one knows but you take out the sec alone and I think FBS for everything else is worth far less. This whole free for all right now doesn’t indicate to me a growing pie but at best a fixed pie that isnt going to be evenly distributed.

I agree to your last point HD. The conference hopping for two decades to me has made conferences pointless. Shell companies for tv purposes with less in common than the macroeconomic and geopolitical interests of OPEC countries. Appreciate national events but it’s not worth all this to get a handful of early season OOC games cross country like Oregon-OSU when they FBS playoff has eliminated most interest in 90% of the bowl games such that kids skip them if they think they’ll be drafted anywhere above Mr Irrelevant.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
User avatar
44WeWantMore
Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:11 pm
Location: Too far from 21218

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by 44WeWantMore »

HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:14 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:05 pm I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Frankly I don't see how a Stanford or a Duke maintain their brands if they elected to go the route of the "SEC". I agree that ND would not decide to go "pro", but in some ways I think it would be harder for them given the importance of football there. With that said - if ND can become the king of true student athlete football, i think that works for their alumni base.I put Michigan in a similar position.

If this kind of melt-down means the rest of "us" can go back to regional conferences against teams that make sense to the student rather than to tv programers - that's a win in my book.
Exactly. The question would be who is left. Assuming the all-in pro model is restricted to the SEC (maybe minus Vandy), plus (say) Miami, FSU, Clemson, and Oklahoma, then ND will not bolt to join that group. It gets harder if traditional rivals like Wisconsin, Purdue, UMich, MSU, OSU, GT, USC, and Texas bolt. Obviously Navy could not bolt. But of that list, I would look to UMich as the bell-weather. If they stay, ND stays and contents itself by saying they play "real" college football.
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
a fan
Posts: 17723
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by a fan »

44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:49 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:14 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:05 pm I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Frankly I don't see how a Stanford or a Duke maintain their brands if they elected to go the route of the "SEC". I agree that ND would not decide to go "pro", but in some ways I think it would be harder for them given the importance of football there. With that said - if ND can become the king of true student athlete football, i think that works for their alumni base.I put Michigan in a similar position.

If this kind of melt-down means the rest of "us" can go back to regional conferences against teams that make sense to the student rather than to tv programers - that's a win in my book.
Exactly. The question would be who is left. Assuming the all-in pro model is restricted to the SEC (maybe minus Vandy), plus (say) Miami, FSU, Clemson, and Oklahoma, then ND will not bolt to join that group. It gets harder if traditional rivals like Wisconsin, Purdue, UMich, MSU, OSU, GT, USC, and Texas bolt. Obviously Navy could not bolt. But of that list, I would look to UMich as the bell-weather. If they stay, ND stays and contents itself by saying they play "real" college football.
I don't understand. Do you guys think that SEC Schools will start paying salaries to football players?
User avatar
HooDat
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:49 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:14 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:05 pm I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Frankly I don't see how a Stanford or a Duke maintain their brands if they elected to go the route of the "SEC". I agree that ND would not decide to go "pro", but in some ways I think it would be harder for them given the importance of football there. With that said - if ND can become the king of true student athlete football, i think that works for their alumni base.I put Michigan in a similar position.

If this kind of melt-down means the rest of "us" can go back to regional conferences against teams that make sense to the student rather than to tv programers - that's a win in my book.
Exactly. The question would be who is left. Assuming the all-in pro model is restricted to the SEC (maybe minus Vandy), plus (say) Miami, FSU, Clemson, and Oklahoma, then ND will not bolt to join that group. It gets harder if traditional rivals like Wisconsin, Purdue, UMich, MSU, OSU, GT, USC, and Texas bolt. Obviously Navy could not bolt. But of that list, I would look to UMich as the bell-weather. If they stay, ND stays and contents itself by saying they play "real" college football.
I don't understand. Do you guys think that SEC Schools will start paying salaries to football players?
It's my fault 8-)

I threw out a potential logical conclusion to the tensions surrounding college football is that a set of schools - using Alabama and the SEC as the strawman(men?) whereby these hyper-competitive schools would eliminate college football as a varsity sport, while their alumni associations would simultaneously start a professional league that licenses logos and uniform styles from their schools, and leases or buys their football stadiums. Since everyone would know that this is a sham to get around Title IX and keep more of the college football money for the "haves", they would retain the same fan bases etc... In this no-holds-barred utopia, they would no longer be bound by concerns re: employment liabilities, workmen's comp, insurance etc....
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:49 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:14 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:05 pm I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Frankly I don't see how a Stanford or a Duke maintain their brands if they elected to go the route of the "SEC". I agree that ND would not decide to go "pro", but in some ways I think it would be harder for them given the importance of football there. With that said - if ND can become the king of true student athlete football, i think that works for their alumni base.I put Michigan in a similar position.

If this kind of melt-down means the rest of "us" can go back to regional conferences against teams that make sense to the student rather than to tv programers - that's a win in my book.
Exactly. The question would be who is left. Assuming the all-in pro model is restricted to the SEC (maybe minus Vandy), plus (say) Miami, FSU, Clemson, and Oklahoma, then ND will not bolt to join that group. It gets harder if traditional rivals like Wisconsin, Purdue, UMich, MSU, OSU, GT, USC, and Texas bolt. Obviously Navy could not bolt. But of that list, I would look to UMich as the bell-weather. If they stay, ND stays and contents itself by saying they play "real" college football.
USC, UT, OSU & MSU will bolt. The latter needs the cheddar to make up for Nasser. I think you’d see Ga Tech go pro model as well, many alums including big donors like to point out how they used to be a old SEC member. Probably UNC goes too. They have had two sets of rules and books going back to when Dean Smith was hired.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
a fan
Posts: 17723
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by a fan »

HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:17 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:49 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:14 pm
44WeWantMore wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:05 pm I have a son who is a senior, and am getting carefully curated messages from colleges seeking to distinguish themselves. Based on everything I have heard, if the SEC went all-out professional, and something resembling NCAA FBS remained with Michigan, Stanford, Navy, Duke, Northwestern, Cal, etc. ND would not go all-out professional.
Frankly I don't see how a Stanford or a Duke maintain their brands if they elected to go the route of the "SEC". I agree that ND would not decide to go "pro", but in some ways I think it would be harder for them given the importance of football there. With that said - if ND can become the king of true student athlete football, i think that works for their alumni base.I put Michigan in a similar position.

If this kind of melt-down means the rest of "us" can go back to regional conferences against teams that make sense to the student rather than to tv programers - that's a win in my book.
Exactly. The question would be who is left. Assuming the all-in pro model is restricted to the SEC (maybe minus Vandy), plus (say) Miami, FSU, Clemson, and Oklahoma, then ND will not bolt to join that group. It gets harder if traditional rivals like Wisconsin, Purdue, UMich, MSU, OSU, GT, USC, and Texas bolt. Obviously Navy could not bolt. But of that list, I would look to UMich as the bell-weather. If they stay, ND stays and contents itself by saying they play "real" college football.
I don't understand. Do you guys think that SEC Schools will start paying salaries to football players?
It's my fault 8-)

I threw out the idea that one potential logical conclusion to the tensions surrounding college football is that a set of schools - using Alabama and the SEC as the strawman(men?). These hyper-competitive schools would eliminate college football as a varsity sport, while their alumni associations would simultaneously start a professional league that licenses logos and uniform styles from their schools, and leases or buys their football stadiums. Since everyone would know that this is a sham to get around Title IX and keep more of the college football money for the "haves", they would retain the same fan bases etc... In this no-holds-barred utopia, they would no longer be bound by concerns re: employment liabilities, workmen's comp, insurance etc....
oooooh. Got it. I gotta say, I have NO IDEA how the Schools sort all this out. Only thing that makes sense to me: do nothing. Let the NIL do its thing, and go right about with their business. Status quo is quite lucrative for everyone involved, as far as I can see.

Anything other that is too complicated for this guy to envision. :lol: ;)
User avatar
44WeWantMore
Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:11 pm
Location: Too far from 21218

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by 44WeWantMore »

Come on; don't tell me that HooDat's thought experiment was not fun.
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Change is a coming that’s all we really know.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:02 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:00 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:03 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:43 am NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.
I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.
Yeah they’ve appealed numerous times since the change in 1995 and been denied
I can't believe I didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this.

This is a big deal for Hobart! Congratulations!
Afan,

This is the release our athletics dept out out a couple of days ago about this topic

NCAA votes to allow Hobart lacrosse to give athletic scholarships
1/22/2022 12:05:00 PM

By: Ken DeBolt
Story Links
INDIANAPOLIS—Since Hobart lacrosse moved to Division I in 1995, the Statesmen have been prohibited from offering athletic scholarships by NCAA legislation. This morning, at the NCAA Convention, that changed.

The Liberty League proposal to permit multidivisional institutions to award athletics aid to their Division I student-athletes passed by an overwhelming majority, 388-18. Prior to today's vote, Hobart lacrosse was required to follow all Division I rules except those regarding financial aid. In that case, the program had to follow the stricter, Division III rules which prohibit scholarships based on athletic ability.

"One of the fundamental lessons delivered through sports is the concept of fair play; today's vote puts Hobart lacrosse on even ground when it comes to recruiting," says Hobart and William Smith Colleges President Joyce Jacobsen. "We know the Colleges offer amazing educational opportunities, an elite faculty, top-notch facilities, and dedicated coaches and now we will also be able to offer Division I athletes the same financial aid opportunities that other Division I programs can."

Through closely coordinated efforts by the coaching staff, NCAA compliance staff and financial aid staff, Hobart and William Smith will immediately begin working on implementation and timing of awarding its first athletic scholarship.

"We are excited for the opportunity to offer athletic scholarships to our Division I student-athletes," says Brian Miller, HWS associate vice president and director of athletics and recreation. "We were supportive of this proposal, and today's vote by the Division III membership will help level the playing field for Hobart lacrosse."




There are 10 institutions which compete primarily in Division III, but also sponsor at least one Division I sport. In men's lacrosse, there are two, Hobart and Johns Hopkins University. The Blue Jays remained in Division I even after the creation of Division III men's lacrosse in 1980, and are able to give athletic scholarships under a grandfather clause. Hobart, which reclassified to Division I in 1995 after winning 13 of the first 15 Division III national championships, was not covered under that clause.

In addition to Hobart lacrosse, the legislative change also impacts Franklin & Marshall College (wrestling), Massachusetts Institute of Technology (rowing), Rochester Institute of Technology (men's and women's hockey) and Union College (men's and women's hockey).

In 22 seasons in Division I, Hobart lacrosse has posted a record of 164-193. The Statesmen are 56-50 over the past eight seasons under the leadership of Head Coach Greg Raymond. In the program's Division I era, he has led Hobart to five of the program's seven winning seasons.

The 120th Hobart lacrosse season officially begins Feb. 12, when the Statesmen host Canisius. The Statesmen begin their preseason scrimmage schedule this afternoon with a scrimmage against Michigan. The scrimmage will be played in the Poole Family Sports Dome and spectators will be limited to those already on the teams' pass list.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32144
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:16 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:02 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:00 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:03 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:43 am NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.
I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.
Yeah they’ve appealed numerous times since the change in 1995 and been denied
I can't believe I didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this.

This is a big deal for Hobart! Congratulations!
Afan,

This is the release our athletics dept out out a couple of days ago about this topic

NCAA votes to allow Hobart lacrosse to give athletic scholarships
1/22/2022 12:05:00 PM

By: Ken DeBolt
Story Links
INDIANAPOLIS—Since Hobart lacrosse moved to Division I in 1995, the Statesmen have been prohibited from offering athletic scholarships by NCAA legislation. This morning, at the NCAA Convention, that changed.

The Liberty League proposal to permit multidivisional institutions to award athletics aid to their Division I student-athletes passed by an overwhelming majority, 388-18. Prior to today's vote, Hobart lacrosse was required to follow all Division I rules except those regarding financial aid. In that case, the program had to follow the stricter, Division III rules which prohibit scholarships based on athletic ability.

"One of the fundamental lessons delivered through sports is the concept of fair play; today's vote puts Hobart lacrosse on even ground when it comes to recruiting," says Hobart and William Smith Colleges President Joyce Jacobsen. "We know the Colleges offer amazing educational opportunities, an elite faculty, top-notch facilities, and dedicated coaches and now we will also be able to offer Division I athletes the same financial aid opportunities that other Division I programs can."

Through closely coordinated efforts by the coaching staff, NCAA compliance staff and financial aid staff, Hobart and William Smith will immediately begin working on implementation and timing of awarding its first athletic scholarship.

"We are excited for the opportunity to offer athletic scholarships to our Division I student-athletes," says Brian Miller, HWS associate vice president and director of athletics and recreation. "We were supportive of this proposal, and today's vote by the Division III membership will help level the playing field for Hobart lacrosse."




There are 10 institutions which compete primarily in Division III, but also sponsor at least one Division I sport. In men's lacrosse, there are two, Hobart and Johns Hopkins University. The Blue Jays remained in Division I even after the creation of Division III men's lacrosse in 1980, and are able to give athletic scholarships under a grandfather clause. Hobart, which reclassified to Division I in 1995 after winning 13 of the first 15 Division III national championships, was not covered under that clause.

In addition to Hobart lacrosse, the legislative change also impacts Franklin & Marshall College (wrestling), Massachusetts Institute of Technology (rowing), Rochester Institute of Technology (men's and women's hockey) and Union College (men's and women's hockey).

In 22 seasons in Division I, Hobart lacrosse has posted a record of 164-193. The Statesmen are 56-50 over the past eight seasons under the leadership of Head Coach Greg Raymond. In the program's Division I era, he has led Hobart to five of the program's seven winning seasons.

The 120th Hobart lacrosse season officially begins Feb. 12, when the Statesmen host Canisius. The Statesmen begin their preseason scrimmage schedule this afternoon with a scrimmage against Michigan. The scrimmage will be played in the Poole Family Sports Dome and spectators will be limited to those already on the teams' pass list.
Limited spectators??!! When did Hobart join the Ivy League?! Draconian….
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: NCAA reorg imminent

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:25 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:16 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:02 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:00 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:03 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:43 am NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.
I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.
Yeah they’ve appealed numerous times since the change in 1995 and been denied
I can't believe I didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this.

This is a big deal for Hobart! Congratulations!
Afan,

This is the release our athletics dept out out a couple of days ago about this topic

NCAA votes to allow Hobart lacrosse to give athletic scholarships
1/22/2022 12:05:00 PM

By: Ken DeBolt
Story Links
INDIANAPOLIS—Since Hobart lacrosse moved to Division I in 1995, the Statesmen have been prohibited from offering athletic scholarships by NCAA legislation. This morning, at the NCAA Convention, that changed.

The Liberty League proposal to permit multidivisional institutions to award athletics aid to their Division I student-athletes passed by an overwhelming majority, 388-18. Prior to today's vote, Hobart lacrosse was required to follow all Division I rules except those regarding financial aid. In that case, the program had to follow the stricter, Division III rules which prohibit scholarships based on athletic ability.

"One of the fundamental lessons delivered through sports is the concept of fair play; today's vote puts Hobart lacrosse on even ground when it comes to recruiting," says Hobart and William Smith Colleges President Joyce Jacobsen. "We know the Colleges offer amazing educational opportunities, an elite faculty, top-notch facilities, and dedicated coaches and now we will also be able to offer Division I athletes the same financial aid opportunities that other Division I programs can."

Through closely coordinated efforts by the coaching staff, NCAA compliance staff and financial aid staff, Hobart and William Smith will immediately begin working on implementation and timing of awarding its first athletic scholarship.

"We are excited for the opportunity to offer athletic scholarships to our Division I student-athletes," says Brian Miller, HWS associate vice president and director of athletics and recreation. "We were supportive of this proposal, and today's vote by the Division III membership will help level the playing field for Hobart lacrosse."




There are 10 institutions which compete primarily in Division III, but also sponsor at least one Division I sport. In men's lacrosse, there are two, Hobart and Johns Hopkins University. The Blue Jays remained in Division I even after the creation of Division III men's lacrosse in 1980, and are able to give athletic scholarships under a grandfather clause. Hobart, which reclassified to Division I in 1995 after winning 13 of the first 15 Division III national championships, was not covered under that clause.

In addition to Hobart lacrosse, the legislative change also impacts Franklin & Marshall College (wrestling), Massachusetts Institute of Technology (rowing), Rochester Institute of Technology (men's and women's hockey) and Union College (men's and women's hockey).

In 22 seasons in Division I, Hobart lacrosse has posted a record of 164-193. The Statesmen are 56-50 over the past eight seasons under the leadership of Head Coach Greg Raymond. In the program's Division I era, he has led Hobart to five of the program's seven winning seasons.

The 120th Hobart lacrosse season officially begins Feb. 12, when the Statesmen host Canisius. The Statesmen begin their preseason scrimmage schedule this afternoon with a scrimmage against Michigan. The scrimmage will be played in the Poole Family Sports Dome and spectators will be limited to those already on the teams' pass list.
Limited spectators??!! When did Hobart join the Ivy League?! Draconian….
Oh yeah! Our prior president worked for the diet clinton White House then ran the peace corps before coming to Geneva. They hired a alum from UT to replace him and the professors ran the guy out within a year because he had like professional expectations and standards and wanted to hold faculty accountable and stuff.

Seriously though, the Dome/bubble doesn’t really have seating. It’s used for preseason and maybe first 1-3 games since it was erected a couple of years ago (and the roof collapsed a year after built because we selected the lowest cost GC). More bummed they got rid of the grass at Boswell/Urick field which used to get watered down nicely before lacrosse games-maybe you recall from way back to how slow that grass could be. Balls stayed in bounds a lot that would roll out elsewhere.

But don’t you worry, we all are well practiced in the art of throwing trout at opponents. Don’t need many with that skill set to effectively host opponents.

Email came out today to start fundraising as I guess this dough won’t come from the general endowment but a new athletics fund being set up which was never needed prior to this ruling. Basically need to get around $10-$15mm to endow the 12.5x using the 5% expenditure rule.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Post Reply

Return to “D1 MENS LACROSSE”