TOPTM?

[Badlands]

Wlaxnut, thanks for posting these clips. It’s really convenient to be able to click on them and watch a controversial play and draw our own conclusions about it. Beats the heck out of wading through 3,600 seconds of film to find a play. I know most people on here appreciate your efforts even if, heaven forbid, you post a clip of a team they support.

[wlaxnut]

Wlaxnut, thanks for posting these clips. It’s really convenient to be able to click on them and watch a controversial play and draw our own conclusions about it. Beats the heck out of wading through 3,600 seconds of film to find a play. I know most people on here appreciate your efforts even if, heaven forbid, you post a clip of a team they support.

Thanks, Badlands—I’m obliged for your kind words. I enjoy putting them together.

[BigRedMachine]

Wlaxnut, thanks for posting these clips. It’s really convenient to be able to click on them and watch a controversial play and draw our own conclusions about it. Beats the heck out of wading through 3,600 seconds of film to find a play.t

Bingo! you're getting the view selected for you. Look at these incidents of head contact and what's perceived as diving. How good is the camera angle? How far away is the camera? Can one really tell if contact is made (not that it matters as any swinging of a stick within close proximity of anothers head results in an automatic yellow card). Furthermore isn't it instinctive for somebody to duck when they sense an object coming within range of their head? Call it a silly notion but I'm of the opinion that If you're going to be calling out people by name you better err on the side of caution

Or take, for instance, the plight of poor Jerry Seinfeld, sitting in his car at a stoplight innocently scratching his nose and turns to see the horrified look on his girlfriend who just happens to be sitting in a cab next to him. He gets dumped because she can't tolerate going out with an uncouth boob who picks his nose in public.

Or consider the Syracuse/Maryland game. A clip has been circulated of a call that some believe resulted in Syracuse being deprived of a win. Just as easily, a number of them could have been displayed showing Maryland on the losing end of some dubious calls close to the end of the game. The point being a person can be influenced just as much by what's not shown as what is. A person sees these videos, without seeing the game and draws his or her conclusions but what's the reality?

And last, call me a homer if you must, but I didn't know it was in bad form to take issue with something presented on these boards because it involve a team I favor. Maybe I'm just not attuned to the new rules.

[Dr. Tact]

As for the players who routinely grab at their heads to draw to draw a card when they know the defenders stick didn't contact their heads, that's really getting on my nerves especially when replay clearly shows that the stick didn't make contact. Unfortunately it's tough for refs to determine for sure that the stick didn't hit the head and the player is faking so it seems there isn't much that can be done about it. Maybe when replay clearly shows the player is faking, people with nothing better to do who like to visit lacrosse message boards should call out the shenanigans.

I think a player who fakes she was hit in the head with a stick should get one warning ("do it again and you get a card") and then, if she does it again, a card for unsportsmanlike conduct. The player is not only trying to draw a foul when she wasn't fouled, but she is trying to get her opponent kicked out of the game for two minutes. Bad bad bad.

Had to break my self-imposed hiatus, as this is one of my pet-peeves.......I would say, don't even give a warning. You get caught faking a head shot, you get a yellow card. That would cut down the excessive bobbing alot...

Watched the Virginia Tech/Denver game...there were at least 3 women on the VT team that every time they got bumped, they bobbed their heads or dove to the ground. While none of these got a yellow for head contact, it was obvious that it was intentional and each time they got a foul.....this is from a VT alumnus. It is coached and, I guess, effective.

[njbill]

BRM, always respect your views, and am glad you have joined the party.

You make several very valid points. Sometimes it is hard or impossible to tell what happened from a replay. But sometimes it is pretty clear. I am not talking about a specific play, but just in general.

I agree with your comment about the human tendency to flinch when an object comes close to one’s head. If Muhammad Ali threw a punch at my face intending (with his exquisite control) to stop his fist an inch from my nose, I sure as heck would flinch. But I wouldn’t grab my nose and roll around on the ground, writhing in apparent pain, pretending I'd been hit.

To my thinking, a player who flinches when her opponent swings a stick near her head may well not be guilty of any nefarious conduct. It's simply a reflexive response as you note. But once you get into head grabbing and rolling on the ground, I get pretty suspicious.

I certainly agree that if one is going to accuse a player of faking that she was hit in the head, you better be right. But we have all watched enough games to know this kind of behavior does occur. As I said upthread, I think it is really bad and should be carded after one warning. Might it be tough for refs to make such a call? Sure. I would agree they shouldn't card a player for such conduct unless they were sure the player feigned being hit. But a lot of calls in the game require split-second judgment calls. That’s why they get paid the big bucks. (Intentionally trying to draw a rebuke from LL.)

[wlaxnut]

Not sure where they’ll all end up in the polls today but USC, Michigan, Notre Dame and Virginia Tech will be getting bumped up, with USC and Michigan perhaps cracking the top 10.

[wlaxnut]

Wlaxnut, thanks for posting these clips. It’s really convenient to be able to click on them and watch a controversial play and draw our own conclusions about it. Beats the heck out of wading through 3,600 seconds of film to find a play.t

consider the Syracuse/Maryland game. A clip has been circulated of a call that some believe resulted in Syracuse being deprived of a win.

I think if you go back and read my comments regarding this topic, my main point was that Syracuse was deprived of shooting space which could have resulted in a win. No one can say whether Hawryschuk would have scored, or whether she would have passed it off to a teammate and they would have scored, or any one of a number of different "could have" scenarios would have taken place. No way a person can say logically that Syracuse was deprived of the win, only of the opportunity to perhaps have won if a FPS had been awarded.

[DMac]

I also respect your opinions, BRM, but have to agree with others here. No one said Cuse was "deprived" of a win but they might well have been deprived of the opportunity to win it in regulation. I get all the camera angle stuff, but regardless of the angle, the defender flinches and I'd bet for the exact reason you discuss when you think something is coming at your head. No biggie all in all, just part of a season and I'd rather be the team coming in with a little chip on their shoulder if they hap[pen to meet again in the post season.
As for the flopping/drama on the wlax field, it absolutely happens. Think it's part of the drama gene inherent in women. As a relatively newcomer to the wlax game, this was one of the first things I commented on when I began watching wlax. These tough, talented athletes sure get knocked to the ground mighty easily at even a hint of contact. I don't see how anyone can deny that drawing the penalty/card with a bit of acting isn't part of the strategy of the game. Some of these girls are worthy of Oscars.

[wlaxnut]

My experience watching women’s lacrosse has been that there are very few women who dive or flop. More often than not, you have multiple displays during any given game as to just how tough these young ladies are. I have great respect for them.

https://youtu.be/Cf8WaCuQwAU

https://youtu.be/N1ItvEs0vlo

Also, I don’t think there is an exclusive drama gene for women. Anyone who has ever watched the Montréal Canadiens hockey team knows that the drama gene is alive and well in the male of the species.

[shenandoahslammer]

Drama gene? That was a throw away comment I might have left out. And have you watched much men's soccer? I can't help but be embarrassed for those guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC-H2wXK4T4

[cltlax]

There is much more contact in women's lacrosse than you give them credit for. My high school daughter has bruises all up and down her arms.

I agree that the head bobbing/faking is ridiculous, but I feel like a lot of the falls are legitimately a result of hard contact.

[Dr. Tact]

There is much more contact in women's lacrosse than you give them credit for. My high school daughter has bruises all up and down her arms.

I agree that the head bobbing/faking is ridiculous, but I feel like a lot of the falls are legitimately a result of hard contact.

I would argue that there are body checks that deflect/stop a player, and that could whiplash a head....but, what I see in watching a fair amount of WLAX and GLAX is that a forceful check on some programs' players seems to be an automatic noodle head....are some hits close enough to the head to have an unconscious head movement? Certainly....but when it happens every single time body contact is made with certain players it is a bit too much. Now, I may have suggested that these players are coached that way...that may not be the case, it may be just a learned behavior....when you get a foul 90% of the time because it looks like you were hit hard enough to move you head when it was not contacted, or, to flop on the ground..that is gaming the system and the rules....I stand by this, if there was a way to judge a fake "flop/head bob/etc"- card them....Just my opinion.

Yea the bruises are not pretty...especially when it takes the whole season to heal them completely...

[DMac]

Drama gene? That was a throw away comment I might have left out. And have you watched much men's soccer? I can't help but be embarrassed for those guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC-H2wXK4T4

I put it in there knowing full well (was pretty darn certain anyway) it would get a rise out of a wlaxer fan (or player). Women and drama...nah, nevah happen.
Watch men's soccer? Not a chance, when they change the rules so you can give and go, set picks, and break to the goal without being off sides, I might. Couple that with the the ridiculously obvious flopping and rolling and writhing in pain act and I have no interest in watching soccer.

[BigRedMachine]

NJBill, DrT, DMAC sorry for the late reply but this is my first opportunity. All your points are well taken and for anybody who's seen enough of the women's game knows that participants often embellish the affects of body contact. I don't know if it's taught or just learned behavior but consider what happens anytime a scrum occurs, often in the draw circle or the eight meter arc, the person that falls down usually gets the call. The motto should be, "when in doubt, fall down". I opined on camera angles and about what you see isn't always what it appears to be but the bigger issue for me is the calling out by name of suspected guilty parties which often lead to what can be called a public shaming. A perfect example is what happened to Megan Whittle.

Last year, after the Navy/Maryland NCAA tournament game, and accompanied with words of outrage a couple of videos were posted on the Laxpower forum showing the appearance of Whittle taking a dive. What followed, as one can imagine, was a flood of negative comments. It seems people love to vent on social media more than they love praising. The Navy fans were especially incensed and none to flattering in their description of her. then at the conclusion of the season when it was learned that Miss Whittle was hired as an assistant coach at Dartmouth negative comments were posted questioning coach Spencer's acumen for hiring Whittle (I have no doubt these videos were a contributing factor). And now those same videos make their way on to these boards with Whittle the poster child for flopping (with the charitable comments that such theatrics haven't been witnessed since Whittle graduated). And I have no doubt they'll turn up sometime in the future for many of the same reasons. But for all that those videos do show there's much, much more that's missing that would lend more balance to this issue, specifically the great physicality defenses would use to deny her a path toward goal, flagrant fouls often not called, but that's beside the point.

Now I'm sure there are many who say Megan Whittle is a big girl and she got what she deserved but I'm not one of them. And I don't care how brutal they are on the men's forum. Those who participate in NCAA women's lacrosse are true scholar athletes. They give up a lot to play their sport and toil mostly in
anonymity. There isn't a pot of gold waiting for them and for most the conclusion of their college careers marks the end of their lacrosse careers. Maybe I'm in the minority, which is often the case, but I think most of us should consider their impact before posting comments or videos. Think of it as if it was your daughter, sister, friend, etc that was the subject of that post. Would you still do it?

[wlaxnut]

NJBill, DrT, DMAC sorry for the late reply but this is my first opportunity. All your points are well taken and for anybody who's seen enough of the women's game knows that participants often embellish the affects of body contact. I don't know if it's taught or just learned behavior but consider what happens anytime a scrum occurs, often in the draw circle or the eight meter arc, the person that falls down usually gets the call. The motto should be, "when in doubt, fall down". I opined on camera angles and about what you see isn't always what it appears to be but the bigger issue for me is the calling out by name of suspected guilty parties which often lead to what can be called a public shaming. A perfect example is what happened to Megan Whittle.

Last year, after the Navy/Maryland NCAA tournament game, and accompanied with words of outrage a couple of videos were posted on the Laxpower forum showing the appearance of Whittle taking a dive. What followed, as one can imagine, was a flood of negative comments. It seems people love to vent on social media more than they love praising. The Navy fans were especially incensed and none to flattering in their description of her. then at the conclusion of the season when it was learned that Miss Whittle was hired as an assistant coach at Dartmouth negative comments were posted questioning coach Spencer's acumen for hiring Whittle (I have no doubt these videos were a contributing factor). And now those same videos make their way on to these boards with Whittle the poster child for flopping (with the charitable comments that such theatrics haven't been witnessed since Whittle graduated). And I have no doubt they'll turn up sometime in the future for many of the same reasons. But for all that those videos do show there's much, much more that's missing that would lend more balance to this issue, specifically the great physicality defenses would use to deny her a path toward goal, flagrant fouls often not called, but that's beside the point.

Now I'm sure there are many who say Megan Whittle is a big girl and she got what she deserved but I'm not one of them. And I don't care how brutal they are on the men's forum. Those who participate in NCAA women's lacrosse are true scholar athletes. They give up a lot to play their sport and toil mostly in
anonymity. There isn't a pot of gold waiting for them and for most the conclusion of their college careers marks the end of their lacrosse careers. Maybe I'm in the minority, which is often the case, but I think most of us should consider their impact before posting comments or videos. Think of it as if it was your daughter, sister, friend, etc that was the subject of that post. Would you still do it?

I appreciated the knowledge and passion in your well-written post. It gave me a lot to think about and mull over. You make some great points, some poignantly. I thought I would try to convey my perspective to you, in like manner.

I’d like to ask up front—do you think Whittle got hit in the face on the play? In general, do you frown upon players flopping or taking dives to gain an advantage?

My sole intention in posting the "Did Megan Whittle Flop?" clip was to facilitate further examination of a controversial point in the Maryland/Navy NCAA Quarterfinal game. That’s basic human nature—if there’s a controversy, we want to know what it’s all about so we can make our own decision as to whether it was legitimate.

As to the controversy itself—during that stretch of the game you mentioned, Mark Dixon--The play-by-play announcer—is heard to say:

"You can see the frustration from the Navy bench. They're basically saying that Whittle is flopping and trying to earn calls." And Sheehan Stanwick-Burch who was doing color for the game upon watching the replay said, "I don't see any check to the head..."

(The reason she mentioned "the head" is because Whittle grabbed her head and put her hands to her face as she fell to the ground, even though she was cross-checked on her arm.)

When I heard the comments, I decided to go back and get a better look at the play to see what they were referring to, and to perhaps offer those who had an interest in the game a better look, as well, so that, as Badlands said earlier in this thread, that folks would “be able to ….watch a controversial play and draw our own conclusions about it.” Here I supply the aforementioned clip:

https://youtu.be/KbMgGz-e-rg

After watching the replay, it’s clear and obvious that Jenna Collins cross-checked Whittle’s arm, and came nowhere near her head—yet when Whittle fell to the carpet, she brings both hands to her face as if that’s where she got hit. After the whistle blew she popped up off the ground in an instant. A remarkable recovery for someone who just supposedly got hit in the face. As a result, Collins gets her 2nd yellow card, and has to sit for the remaining 4 plus minutes in the game, (not to mention her career). I can’t imagine she felt good about her career ending like that. So Navy loses arguably their best player during a critical part of the game, which certainly reduces their chance to come back. I can understand why Navy fans were incensed and had negative comments in the aftermath. And that’s why I thought the play was significant enough to publish. In the end, I concluded that it was an important moment in the game, and thought it was worth noting for history.

I love the great sport of women’s lacrosse and I only want to see it flourish and grow. I appreciate how hard the women work and how much they sacrifice to play. I have great respect for their toughness and dedication. But the incident we saw during this game doesn’t belong in this, or any, sport. In some sports, players are penalized for flopping/diving/embellishing.

Let’s be real—Whittle flopped on this play. This was conclusively much more than “the appearance of Whittle taking a dive.” This was Whittle absorbing contact on her arm and pretending it was a blow to her face. She did it to hopefully get a call and help her team win. She was successful. Though it cannot be reasonably said that it won the game for the Terps, it did end up hurting Jenna Collins and the Navy team's chances to make a comeback. I think behavior like that doesn’t make women’s lacrosse look good. Also—Whittle’s flopping was nothing new to the Navy team as Mark Dixon noted during the broadcast. I'm a little surprised you didn't assign some guilt to him, or his broadcast partner Stanwick-Burch, or Navy coach Cindy Timchal and her team. They brought up Whittle's name before the clip was posted. I imagine there are other folks out there who saw Whittle’s playing days and noticed her penchant for embellishing on occasion. This isn’t a Scarlet Letter issue as it is seemingly portrayed. This was a single video (you mentioned “videos”—not sure what clip you’re referring to other than this one) about a single moment in one game, entitled as a question—not an accusation.

In conclusion, we can certainly agree to disagree. I do hope we can all get along here on these boards. I know that doesn’t always happen but I would like to endeavor to be civil and respectful with everyone as I value the women’s lacrosse community here and hope to be a team player when all is said and done.

Peace everybody—

[shootingspace]

How about the refs start calling a few flopping yellow card-delay of game calls or such. Simple change for the refs-after the first few calls -girls will think twice about the make believe head contact.

[Dr. Tact]

How about the refs start calling a few flopping yellow card-delay of game calls or such. Simple change for the refs-after the first few calls -girls will think twice about the make believe head contact.

Yes to this^^^ I also indicated that earlier in the thread....only way to stop the flopping is to start issuing YCs. In the Navy/MD case brought up by the Nut above, if Whittle was carded, then the ball would have turned over to Navy and they would be playing even strength...Would that affect the outcome, who knows?...water under the bridge (I have no dog in that fight).

[wlaxnut]

In the Navy/MD case brought up by the Nut above, if Whittle was carded, then the ball would have turned over to Navy and they would be playing even strength...Would that affect the outcome, who knows?

I agree, if the call was reversed, (or even not made at all) would it have affected the outcome of the game? There’s no way to say conclusively. But the main issue was Whittle’s flop, not so much with how Navy was affected by it.

[seacoaster]

Webcast from CBA of the Notre Dame v. Syracuse is adequate, and good under the circumstances.

UND is 6-0 on draws. Jeez.

8-5 Irish nearing the half. Just physically taking it to the "home" team.

9-8 UND with 5:00+ to go. Loud Notre Dame dads can be heard in Liverpool.

9-9....

10-9 Syracuse Final. Whoa.

[shootingspace]

At this point JMU is no longer relevant and BC and MD are the best 2 teams . I did not see the MD game but watched BC beat UNC-the new GK is the real deal.