American Educational System

[MDlaxfan76]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.

Getting paid the same as any other person who serves at same rank who didn't get a government paid education in a government owned and operated institution.

[MDlaxfan76]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

Of course...I was addressing youth. Pretty clear where I think Salty is gaslighting along with right wing media. They've totally lost this argument, but that doesn't stop them from lying about it.

On the other hand, I'm fully open to honest, rational discussions as to where to strike the Balance. If someone would like to discuss various perspectives and rationale, cool beans, just don't BS and deny that some measure of socialism can be an effective way to organize some functions of government action. Don't demonize...I say the same to anti-capitalist rhetoric. Chill and admit that aspects of capitalism work very well in creating benefits to humankind quite efficiently. Don't demonize. Recognize costs and benefits and look for ways to optimize, considering more than immediate outcomes.

[youthathletics]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.

Getting paid the same as any other person who serves at same rank who didn't get a government paid education in a government owned and operated institution.

the pay is not the same.
There are portions of a SA student that you all may not be fully up to speed on which can add a bit of clarity..does not negate the ‘socialism’ entirely.

- Students are sworn in to the military before they begin school. So they are not just ‘classified’ as a student in an other university.

- the pay they receive is not all pocketed after everything is deducted each month. They have to pay back uniforms, equipment, laundry, class fees, and others. Yes still some pocket money but it does not go far. Especially when you are not free to leave campus. There are plenty of resources if you want research.

- they are also responsible to pay back tuition if they are separated after year two….with exceptions of course.

[MDlaxfan76]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.

Getting paid the same as any other person who serves at same rank who didn't get a government paid education in a government owned and operated institution.

the pay is not the same.
There are portions of a SA student that you all may not be fully up to speed on which can add a bit of clarity..does not negate the ‘socialism’ entirely.

- Students are sworn in to the military before they begin school. So they are not just ‘classified’ as a student in an other university.

- the pay they receive is not all pocketed after everything is deducted each month. They have to pay back uniforms, equipment, laundry, class fees, and others. Yes still some pocket money but it does not go far. Especially when you are not free to leave campus. There are plenty of resources if you want research.

- they are also responsible to pay back tuition if they are separated after year two….with exceptions of course.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't including getting paid while still in school.
Regular college students don't get paid to go to school either...
Interesting that SA do get paid something while still in school, which I now recall from somewhere deep in memory bank, but my impression was not much net, as you indicate. Walking around money, when allowed to walk around. But that's more than a regular college student...but I wasn't referring to that. Pretty darn decent money for a single person post Academy.

I was simply saying the Academy grads certainly don't get paid less (post Academy) for the same rank as someone who achieved that rank without the Academy...in other words, they went to college and then enlisted. Paid for college privately unless ROTC etc.

So, there's no payback for SA college benefit relative to anyone else in service for same period of time.

It's interesting that Salty even thinks of it this way (putting aside the gaslighting about socialism) as my impression, indeed hope, is that most of those who go the SA route genuinely are interested in military service on behalf of our country whether as a career or as part of their overall life experience. Not as some payback for college, nor really for the paycheck at all, but because they genuinely wished to be of service. Not as a transaction.

But pull it out of patriotic service and just look at it as a transaction, it's a sweet deal. Hard, demanding, potentially dangerous but a sweet economic deal. And certainly relative to those who don't go SA and later decide to do military service.

[Typical Lax Dad]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.

Getting paid the same as any other person who serves at same rank who didn't get a government paid education in a government owned and operated institution.

the pay is not the same.
There are portions of a SA student that you all may not be fully up to speed on which can add a bit of clarity..does not negate the ‘socialism’ entirely.

- Students are sworn in to the military before they begin school. So they are not just ‘classified’ as a student in an other university.

- the pay they receive is not all pocketed after everything is deducted each month. They have to pay back uniforms, equipment, laundry, class fees, and others. Yes still some pocket money but it does not go far. Especially when you are not free to leave campus. There are plenty of resources if you want research.

- they are also responsible to pay back tuition if they are separated after year two….with exceptions of course.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't including getting paid while still in school.
Regular college students don't get paid to go to school either...
Interesting that SA do get paid something while still in school, which I now recall from somewhere deep in memory bank, but my impression was not much net, as you indicate. Walking around money, when allowed to walk around. But that's more than a regular college student...but I wasn't referring to that. Pretty darn decent money for a single person post Academy.

I was simply saying the Academy grads certainly don't get paid less (post Academy) for the same rank as someone who achieved that rank without the Academy...in other words, they went to college and then enlisted. Paid for college privately unless ROTC etc.

So, there's no payback for SA college benefit relative to anyone else in service for same period of time.

It's interesting that Salty even thinks of it this way (putting aside the gaslighting about socialism) as my impression, indeed hope, is that most of those who go the SA route genuinely are interested in military service on behalf of our country whether as a career or as part of their overall life experience. Not as some payback for college, nor really for the paycheck at all, but because they genuinely wished to be of service. Not as a transaction.

But pull it out of patriotic service and just look at it as a transaction, it's a sweet deal. Hard, demanding, potentially dangerous but a sweet economic deal. And certainly relative to those who don't go SA and later decide to do military service.

A little more detail….

https://www.ida.org/-/media/feature/pub ... 22745.ashx

[old salt]

Love how he claims that paid employees of government are actually paying for their education through obligated government service...apparently it's not the taxpayers. Do officers who went to a government paid military academy get paid less than those of equal rank who enlisted and were promoted without that military "vo-tech school"? If so, that's news to me but might support his argument...if so, how much less and for how long is it lower?

My brother-in-law in my basement left Annapolis before his first year ended but is still eligible for numerous veterans benefits 45 years later...blows my mind that he thinks of himself as a "veteran", but these benefits are pretty sweet...like VA loans. Lower rates and no deposit. Apparently showing up for even a day qualifies, as long as not dishonorably discharged.

All service members, regardless of branch, sign on for a total 8yr commitment. That commitment can be broken up between Active and Reserve time. Officers incur a service obligation for accepting a commission, on top of any additional/concurrent incurred commitments for school financial aid or academy attendance. This can be anywhere from 3–6 years active duty obligated service.

If you enlist in the Navy, you incur a 4 yr active duty obligation.
If you accept a commission, the active duty "payback" period depends on how much the service has invested in training you.
If you come in with a degree & go to OCS, your active duty payback is 3 years. Longer w/ follow-on specialized training.
The remaining reserve commitment may be in an inactive reserve status, subject to recall.

If you get a VA home loan, you still have to make the payments.
You can sometimes get a better deal with a conventional loan -- I did so with 2 assumptions.

So, I think that "answers" my question.
Military academy graduates get the same pay according to rank as does anyone else at same rank. Not less.
They have a running start on rank given the 4 years of service factoring into rank, but the key point is that they don't get less.
Running start ? BS. You don't know what you're talking about. All face the same promotion gates & selection boards by year group of commissioning.

My son's good friend, college lacrosse player from UNC, no ROTC, but OCS post college gets paid the same per rank as if coming out of Annapolis or West Point or Air Force or whatever. But he paid for his college education, not the taxpayer. SEAL officer...'somewhere in Africa'.
...& he only had a 3 yr active duty obligation as an Unrestricted Line Officer. He agreed to longer obligated active duty service for specialized training as a SEAL. ....& he didn't have to endure the BS & loss of freedom that service academy attendees put up with. He had a normal college experience. Did he apply for a service academy & get turned down ? If he played for UNC, he likely could have played for Navy.

Sure, you can 'assume' someone else's lower interest rate from a prior period when rates were lower, but apples to apples, the VA loan is a sweet deal. Lower interest and full cost of $500k home would never have been what my currently unemployed brother-in-law would have received in private market otherwise than enhanced by VA.
Not necessarily lower rates from previous years. Lower closing costs.
We could get a lower interest rate by going conventional with a down payment, than no money down VA.
First home was a VA assumption. Second home was a conventional assumption.
We scrimped & saved (drove used cars) to get both.
Then, VA was no better than FHA. You still had to pay.

BTW, I don't have any issues with all that other than the notion that benefits accrue as soon as you go one day to Academy...that's nonsensical IMO. But I want the military choice to be attractive, we need good people serving.

Bottomline, you continue to avoid a fan's simple definition question.
Here ya go => https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... acobin-dsa

[old salt]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

...you're the only one who appears to be throwing a temper tantrum.

Did the Jesuits at Georgetown provide you with a life coach ?

[old salt]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.

While giving up your freedom to choose what & where your service will be.
Few sailors would choose a 6 month deployment to the Persian Gulf or Red Sea, extended to 9 months.

More like indentured servitude than socialism. We deserve reparations.

You also face statutory limitations on how long you can serve, based upon performance & promotion.

[SCLaxAttack]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.

While giving up your freedom to choose what & where your service will be.
Few sailors would choose a 6 month deployment to the Persian Gulf or Red Sea, extended to 9 months.

More like indentured servitude than socialism. We deserve reparations.

You also face statutory limitations on how long you can serve, based upon performance & promotion.

Indentured servitude? I don’t know of a single person that ever got drafted into an SA. Maybe it happened pre-1974.

I’m pretty sure you can even leave before certain thresholds and not have any service obligation or responsibility to pay for education received.

High school students know what they’re getting into before they even apply - including the service obligation. The day they arrive they’re not shocked - Men, surprise! We’re going to shave your heads!

[a fan]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

...you're the only one who appears to be throwing a temper tantrum.

Did the Jesuits at Georgetown provide you with a life coach ?

Yep. Sure did. That's what you get when you attend a free market, Privately owned University.

You should try attending one, it's a far better education, since you're certain socialism is bad.

Keep making yourself look like the dumbest person on the board, OS. I'm happy to play along while my privately owned and operated pot stills are running. I'm making money while you're acting the fool......

[cradleandshoot]

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........

Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.

...you're the only one who appears to be throwing a temper tantrum.

Did the Jesuits at Georgetown provide you with a life coach ?

Yep. Sure did. That's what you get when you attend a free market, Privately owned University.

You should try attending one, it's a far better education, since you're certain socialism is bad.

Keep making yourself look like the dumbest person on the board, OS. I'm happy to play along while my privately owned and operated pot stills are running. I'm making money while you're acting the fool......

You capitalist you...you should be ashamed of yourself.

[old salt]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

[a fan]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/13/us/priva ... index.html

[cradleandshoot]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

[a fan]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

Well, as I have said MANY times: that's the way to do it: free vocational training or college in exchange for X years of Government/Community service. Then everyone's happy, and America is a far, far, far better place for it.

It worked for the GI bill. Have no doubt it would work here in 2024.

[cradleandshoot]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

Well, as I have said MANY times: that's the way to do it: free vocational training or college in exchange for X years of Government/Community service. Then everyone's happy, and America is a far, far, far better place for it.

It worked for the GI bill. Have no doubt it would work here in 2024.

My dad had a number of his WW2 buddies that went back to college and led very successful lives. These were all folks who were strongly motivated to succeed in life. Vocational training is so often overlooked in the scheme of things. My neighbors stepson was a lousy student but he is the Michaelangelo of welders. He learned how to weld taking those vocational classes instead of traditional classes. He owns a couple of trucks in SC and has a couple people working for him. There is really good money in being able to do on job site welding repairs quickly and correctly. The only thing that aggravates him is having to do those quarterly tax filings.

[a fan]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

Well, as I have said MANY times: that's the way to do it: free vocational training or college in exchange for X years of Government/Community service. Then everyone's happy, and America is a far, far, far better place for it.

It worked for the GI bill. Have no doubt it would work here in 2024.

My dad had a number of his WW2 buddies that went back to college and led very successful lives. These were all folks who were strongly motivated to succeed in life. Vocational training is so often overlooked in the scheme of things. My neighbors stepson was a lousy student but he is the Michaelangelo of welders. He learned how to weld taking those vocational classes instead of traditional classes. He owns a couple of trucks in SC and has a couple people working for him. There is really good money in being able to do on job site welding repairs quickly and correctly. The only thing that aggravates him is having to do those quarterly tax filings.

My Production manager's son knew he wanted to go into construction way back in the 8th grade. He got out of HS, and got a great job, and is well on his way to six figures, without one penny of student loans. Smart kid.

My grandfather was the first of his family to go to college, and he did it on the GIBill. Pretty neat that his work is STILL paying dividends three generations later.

[cradleandshoot]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

Well, as I have said MANY times: that's the way to do it: free vocational training or college in exchange for X years of Government/Community service. Then everyone's happy, and America is a far, far, far better place for it.

It worked for the GI bill. Have no doubt it would work here in 2024.

My dad had a number of his WW2 buddies that went back to college and led very successful lives. These were all folks who were strongly motivated to succeed in life. Vocational training is so often overlooked in the scheme of things. My neighbors stepson was a lousy student but he is the Michaelangelo of welders. He learned how to weld taking those vocational classes instead of traditional classes. He owns a couple of trucks in SC and has a couple people working for him. There is really good money in being able to do on job site welding repairs quickly and correctly. The only thing that aggravates him is having to do those quarterly tax filings.

My Production manager's son knew he wanted to go into construction way back in the 8th grade. He got out of HS, and got a great job, and is well on his way to six figures, without one penny of student loans. Smart kid.

My grandfather was the first of his family to go to college, and he did it on the GIBill. Pretty neat that his work is STILL paying dividends three generations later.

My dad was already a skilled tool and die maker when he went into the army in 1943. He went back to the same shop when he left the army and worked at the same job until he retired in 1985. That doesn't happen very much anymore but it was a trademark of many WW2 vets.

[a fan]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

Well, as I have said MANY times: that's the way to do it: free vocational training or college in exchange for X years of Government/Community service. Then everyone's happy, and America is a far, far, far better place for it.

It worked for the GI bill. Have no doubt it would work here in 2024.

My dad had a number of his WW2 buddies that went back to college and led very successful lives. These were all folks who were strongly motivated to succeed in life. Vocational training is so often overlooked in the scheme of things. My neighbors stepson was a lousy student but he is the Michaelangelo of welders. He learned how to weld taking those vocational classes instead of traditional classes. He owns a couple of trucks in SC and has a couple people working for him. There is really good money in being able to do on job site welding repairs quickly and correctly. The only thing that aggravates him is having to do those quarterly tax filings.

My Production manager's son knew he wanted to go into construction way back in the 8th grade. He got out of HS, and got a great job, and is well on his way to six figures, without one penny of student loans. Smart kid.

My grandfather was the first of his family to go to college, and he did it on the GIBill. Pretty neat that his work is STILL paying dividends three generations later.

My dad was already a skilled tool and die maker when he went into the army in 1943. He went back to the same shop when he left the army and worked at the same job until he retired in 1985. That doesn't happen very much anymore but it was a trademark of many WW2 vets.

Well, if it's not obvious as hell, I'm proud to be a tradesman like your father was. One of the big ones that was lost? Coopers.....barrel makers. Picture how hard it is to make a barrel that holds EXACTLY 53 gallons, that is water tight, and is made up of wooden staves, each of which is a different size. Crazy skill, and a mix of brute strength and a soft touch are needed.

That art is all but gone nowadays.