American Educational System

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Typical Lax Dad
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Re: American Educational System

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am It would be nice if you and the right wing knew the meaning of the word socialism you misuse so much.

Apparently you do not understand financing a university. I als think tuition boosts have gotten out of hand.

Your comment about the 60’s and ROTC is also off target. What are you basing your talking points on?

I remember being at a Hopkins Navy lacrosse game sometime around 2010 or so. 5 mids are walking by me. One said “ What has Hopkins ever done for the country.”
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles ... %20tuition.


The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
a fan
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Re: American Educational System

Post by a fan »

OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am It would be nice if you and the right wing knew the meaning of the word socialism you misuse so much.
Just like his fellow Republicans, he thinks he gets to decide what that word means. Oh, and the best part? He'll never tell you what his definition is, because he knows if he does that, he's stuck defending a dumb*ss (and hilariously wrong) definition of the word.

His alma mater is a socialist institution: owned and operated by the Federal Government. Government employees run it, and do aaalllll the teaching.
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am I remember being at a Hopkins Navy lacrosse game sometime around 2010 or so. 5 mids are walking by me. One said “ What has Hopkins ever done for the country.”
Meh. Kids. They don't know any better. Pretty sure the smart ones know that the guys the go to when they get hurt were trained at places like Hopkins.
Last edited by a fan on Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: American Educational System

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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old salt
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Re: American Educational System

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:18 am
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am It would be nice if you and the right wing knew the meaning of the word socialism you misuse so much.
Just like his fellow Republicans, he thinks he gets to decide what that word means. Oh, and the best part? He'll never tell you what his definition is, because he knows if he does that, he's stuck defending a dumb*ss (and hilariously wrong) definition of the word.

His alma mater is a socialist institution: owned and operated by the Federal Government. Government employees run it, and do aaalllll the teaching.
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am I remember being at a Hopkins Navy lacrosse game sometime around 2010 or so. 5 mids are walking by me. One said “ What has Hopkins ever done for the country.”
Meh. Kids. They don't know any better. Pretty sure the smart ones know that the guys the go to when they get hurt were trained at places like Hopkins.
Hopkins has been well compensated for any research conducted for DoD.
Mids go to Bethesda for med care beyond the USNA clinic.
USNA is a military vo-tech school whose grads pay for their education via obligated service.
That's not socialism. It's a basic govt function. You (+ Bernie & AOC) think EVERYTHING .gov does is socialism
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old salt
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Re: American Educational System

Post by old salt »

The latest Dem Socialist failures :
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... ebt-plans/

A Breakdown of the Biden Administration’s Student-Debt Plans

by DOMINIC PINO, April 8, 2024

One of the peculiar things about the White House’s announcement of more student-loan programs today is how it emphasizes that the “forgiveness” — which is really transferring the debt from borrowers to taxpayers — will in many cases come without any need for recipients to apply for it.

The White House makes the situation sound extremely dire: “More than 25 million borrowers owe more than they originally borrowed, including many who have made years of payments, due to the interest rates on Federal student loans.” These poor souls toiling under the weight of this ever-increasing debt must be crying out for any relief. If the only thing standing in their way was some paperwork, they’d do it forthwith. Yet, the statement says, “No application will be needed for borrowers to receive this relief if the plan is implemented as proposed.”

The statement treats this problem in greater depth. It says, “Too many borrowers eligible for relief — including immediate cancellation — have not been able to overcome paperwork requirements, bad advice, or other obstacles.” To fix this, the administration wants to make debt cancellation automatic. “The Administration’s plans would allow the Department of Education to use data it has on hand to identify borrowers otherwise eligible for this type of relief without requiring them to apply for these programs,” the statement says.

The White House apparently believes millions of people are crushed by student debt, but they can’t figure out how to apply for relief. It believes this to be true of people who are currently eligible under existing programs and of people who will become eligible under expanded programs.

Radical proposal: If you can’t figure out how to do some paperwork to have taxpayers pay your debts, you shouldn’t be allowed to have taxpayers pay your debts.
Of course, this entire policy approach is nonsensical to begin with, and debts should be repaid by the people who borrowed the money, not taxpayers. But granted that this is the approach the administration is taking, having people apply for benefits isn’t too much to ask. And from a federal government that made at least $236 billion of improper payments last year, Americans should be even more skeptical that this money will end up in the right hands when disbursed on autopilot.

Twenty-Year Cutoff
“The Administration’s new proposals, if finalized as proposed, would cancel student debt for borrowers who first entered repayment 20 or more years ago,” the statement says. Nowhere does it say why 20 years is the cutoff. It’s a peculiar number to choose. Most mortgages in the United States are for 30 years. Home borrowers would be just as happy to not have to pay their debts back as student borrowers would.

Having debt for many years is not a legitimate reason to stop paying it back. Part of the reason mortgages are for 30 years is so monthly payments can be low. That is a tradeoff many people are willing to make. Student borrowers can evaluate that tradeoff in the same way home borrowers do.

Additionally, the statement says that for this provision, “Borrowers would not need to be on an income-driven repayment plan to qualify.” So someone making lots of money now who is still paying off student debt from 20 or more years ago would still be able to shift that burden to taxpayers.

Borrowing for Bad Programs
“One of the Biden-Harris Administration’s top priorities when it comes to higher education is holding colleges accountable when they leave students with mountains of debt and without good job prospects,” the statement says. “To this end, the Department has taken significant steps to crack down on colleges that provide low-value programs to borrowers, when they cheat students and families, and when they close unexpectedly — leaving borrowers and taxpayers to foot the bill.”

So, now, it’s going to have taxpayers foot the bill. The plan “would cancel student debt for loans associated with institutions or programs that lost their eligibility to participate in the Federal student aid program or were denied recertification because they cheated or took advantage of students,” the statement says. “Further, borrowers who attended institutions or programs that closed and failed to provide sufficient value— for example that leave graduates with unaffordable loan payments or earnings no better than what someone with a high school diploma earns— would be eligible for relief under this proposal.”

Of course, this state of affairs is largely the federal government’s fault. If there were a true market for student lending, lenders would price for risk. They would have incentives to research how effective college programs are at producing quality graduates. They’d be willing to lend to students enrolling in good programs at lower interest rates and would lend to students enrolling in bad programs only at higher interest rates. That would help students by providing them with additional information about the relative advantages of different program choices. It would also encourage schools to either improve or shutter bad programs, since enrollment would drop in the face of higher interest rates.

But it is the purpose of federal student-lending policy to make loans available to anyone going to any school for any program. Rather than sorting out which programs are good ahead of time and discouraging people from taking on unwise debt in the first place, borrowers find out after the fact that their degrees aren’t useful. And now, rather than having the failed programs pay back the debt, taxpayers are on the hook.

Hardship
“President Biden and his Administration recognize that the current student loan system and repayment programs don’t reach all borrowers, and for many Americans student loans continue to be a barrier for them participating in the economy, accessing economic mobility, or pursuing their dreams,” the statement says. “The Administration’s plan for student debt relief will also include a plan that would cancel student debt for borrowers experiencing hardship in their daily lives that prevents them from fully paying back their loans now or in the future.”

Paying back debt is unpleasant. This is true of all forms of debt. Nobody really enjoys it. Anyone could think of other things they’d rather spend money on than interest. That is not an excuse to not pay the debt.

If it were, there are many more deserving recipients of debt relief than American college graduates. Student-loan “forgiveness” is highly regressive, with medical-school graduates benefiting far more than bachelor’s degree holders. The median American adult has no student debt, because the median American adult never borrowed any money to attend college in the first place. Shifting the burden of student debt to taxpayers is redistributing from the relatively poor to the relatively rich.

The Cost
The administration says its plans announced today, when combined with other measures it has already enacted, “would provide debt relief to over 30 million Americans.” It outlines almost $150 billion of “relief” it has already enacted, but it provides no cost estimates for the additional “relief” it has proposed.

It’s an election year, though, so the statement does announce travel plans for Biden, Vice President Harris, Second Gentleman Emhoff, and Secretary of Education Cardona to promote the proposals in campaign events. That’s what these proposals are ultimately about.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/2 ... -gao-says/

$236 Billion in Improper Federal Payments in 2023, GAO Says

by DOMINIC PINO, March 27, 2024

The Government Accountability Office’s report on improper payments by the federal government, released on Tuesday, showed $236 billion worth of errors made by federal agencies last year. Improper payments are defined as “those that should not have been made or were made in the incorrect amount.” The GAO’s findings are an underestimate since not all federal agencies provided information on improper payments.

Improper payments have increased over time. In 2003 there were $35 billion in improper payments. The number first broke $100 billion in 2009. It increased each year from 2017 to 2021, rising from $141 billion to the peak of $281 billion. It has declined in the past two years but remains much higher than it was before the Covid pandemic.

The GAO classifies improper payments into four categories: overpayments, underpayments, technically improper payments, and unknown payments. If errors were random, we would expect to see roughly the same amount of overpayments as underpayments. But 74 percent of improper payments last year were overpayments, the GAO found. Only 5 percent were underpayments. Nineteen percent were unknown, and 2 percent were technical.

Four-fifths of the improper payments in 2023 came from just five government programs: Medicare, Medicaid, expanded federal unemployment insurance, the earned-income tax credit, and the Paycheck Protection Program. Last year, the GAO found that about one-seventh of expanded federal unemployment insurance given between April 2020 and May 2023 was fraudulent. Also last year, the Department of Labor inspector general found that 22 percent of pandemic-era federal unemployment payments were improper.

Sixteen federal programs reported improper-payment rates of 10 percent or higher. The Paycheck Protection Program was highest, with two components of that program reporting improper-payment rates of 49.1 percent and 40.5 percent. Next came the disaster-assistance program from the Farm Service Agency at 40.4 percent, and 33.5 percent of payments related to the earned-income tax credit were improper. Programs of the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Health and Human Services, and the Corporation for National and Community Service are also included in the 16 programs.

The GAO found eight success stories of programs that decreased improper payments, but four of those were programs that had expired or were terminated. The other four — Medicaid and three programs within the Department of Education — decreased improper payments because they implemented better program controls.

To put $236 billion in perspective, the budget of the Department of Justice in 2023 was $37 billion. The budget of the Department of State was $58 billion. The federal government made improper payments multiple times greater than the entire budgets of the cabinet departments tasked with law enforcement and diplomacy last year.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by PizzaSnake »

old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:15 pm The latest Dem Socialist failures :
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... ebt-plans/

A Breakdown of the Biden Administration’s Student-Debt Plans

by DOMINIC PINO, April 8, 2024

One of the peculiar things about the White House’s announcement of more student-loan programs today is how it emphasizes that the “forgiveness” — which is really transferring the debt from borrowers to taxpayers — will in many cases come without any need for recipients to apply for it.

The White House makes the situation sound extremely dire: “More than 25 million borrowers owe more than they originally borrowed, including many who have made years of payments, due to the interest rates on Federal student loans.” These poor souls toiling under the weight of this ever-increasing debt must be crying out for any relief. If the only thing standing in their way was some paperwork, they’d do it forthwith. Yet, the statement says, “No application will be needed for borrowers to receive this relief if the plan is implemented as proposed.”

The statement treats this problem in greater depth. It says, “Too many borrowers eligible for relief — including immediate cancellation — have not been able to overcome paperwork requirements, bad advice, or other obstacles.” To fix this, the administration wants to make debt cancellation automatic. “The Administration’s plans would allow the Department of Education to use data it has on hand to identify borrowers otherwise eligible for this type of relief without requiring them to apply for these programs,” the statement says.

The White House apparently believes millions of people are crushed by student debt, but they can’t figure out how to apply for relief. It believes this to be true of people who are currently eligible under existing programs and of people who will become eligible under expanded programs.

Radical proposal: If you can’t figure out how to do some paperwork to have taxpayers pay your debts, you shouldn’t be allowed to have taxpayers pay your debts.
Of course, this entire policy approach is nonsensical to begin with, and debts should be repaid by the people who borrowed the money, not taxpayers. But granted that this is the approach the administration is taking, having people apply for benefits isn’t too much to ask. And from a federal government that made at least $236 billion of improper payments last year, Americans should be even more skeptical that this money will end up in the right hands when disbursed on autopilot.

Twenty-Year Cutoff
“The Administration’s new proposals, if finalized as proposed, would cancel student debt for borrowers who first entered repayment 20 or more years ago,” the statement says. Nowhere does it say why 20 years is the cutoff. It’s a peculiar number to choose. Most mortgages in the United States are for 30 years. Home borrowers would be just as happy to not have to pay their debts back as student borrowers would.

Having debt for many years is not a legitimate reason to stop paying it back. Part of the reason mortgages are for 30 years is so monthly payments can be low. That is a tradeoff many people are willing to make. Student borrowers can evaluate that tradeoff in the same way home borrowers do.

Additionally, the statement says that for this provision, “Borrowers would not need to be on an income-driven repayment plan to qualify.” So someone making lots of money now who is still paying off student debt from 20 or more years ago would still be able to shift that burden to taxpayers.

Borrowing for Bad Programs
“One of the Biden-Harris Administration’s top priorities when it comes to higher education is holding colleges accountable when they leave students with mountains of debt and without good job prospects,” the statement says. “To this end, the Department has taken significant steps to crack down on colleges that provide low-value programs to borrowers, when they cheat students and families, and when they close unexpectedly — leaving borrowers and taxpayers to foot the bill.”

So, now, it’s going to have taxpayers foot the bill. The plan “would cancel student debt for loans associated with institutions or programs that lost their eligibility to participate in the Federal student aid program or were denied recertification because they cheated or took advantage of students,” the statement says. “Further, borrowers who attended institutions or programs that closed and failed to provide sufficient value— for example that leave graduates with unaffordable loan payments or earnings no better than what someone with a high school diploma earns— would be eligible for relief under this proposal.”

Of course, this state of affairs is largely the federal government’s fault. If there were a true market for student lending, lenders would price for risk. They would have incentives to research how effective college programs are at producing quality graduates. They’d be willing to lend to students enrolling in good programs at lower interest rates and would lend to students enrolling in bad programs only at higher interest rates. That would help students by providing them with additional information about the relative advantages of different program choices. It would also encourage schools to either improve or shutter bad programs, since enrollment would drop in the face of higher interest rates.

But it is the purpose of federal student-lending policy to make loans available to anyone going to any school for any program. Rather than sorting out which programs are good ahead of time and discouraging people from taking on unwise debt in the first place, borrowers find out after the fact that their degrees aren’t useful. And now, rather than having the failed programs pay back the debt, taxpayers are on the hook.

Hardship
“President Biden and his Administration recognize that the current student loan system and repayment programs don’t reach all borrowers, and for many Americans student loans continue to be a barrier for them participating in the economy, accessing economic mobility, or pursuing their dreams,” the statement says. “The Administration’s plan for student debt relief will also include a plan that would cancel student debt for borrowers experiencing hardship in their daily lives that prevents them from fully paying back their loans now or in the future.”

Paying back debt is unpleasant. This is true of all forms of debt. Nobody really enjoys it. Anyone could think of other things they’d rather spend money on than interest. That is not an excuse to not pay the debt.

If it were, there are many more deserving recipients of debt relief than American college graduates. Student-loan “forgiveness” is highly regressive, with medical-school graduates benefiting far more than bachelor’s degree holders. The median American adult has no student debt, because the median American adult never borrowed any money to attend college in the first place. Shifting the burden of student debt to taxpayers is redistributing from the relatively poor to the relatively rich.

The Cost
The administration says its plans announced today, when combined with other measures it has already enacted, “would provide debt relief to over 30 million Americans.” It outlines almost $150 billion of “relief” it has already enacted, but it provides no cost estimates for the additional “relief” it has proposed.

It’s an election year, though, so the statement does announce travel plans for Biden, Vice President Harris, Second Gentleman Emhoff, and Secretary of Education Cardona to promote the proposals in campaign events. That’s what these proposals are ultimately about.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/2 ... -gao-says/

$236 Billion in Improper Federal Payments in 2023, GAO Says

by DOMINIC PINO, March 27, 2024

The Government Accountability Office’s report on improper payments by the federal government, released on Tuesday, showed $236 billion worth of errors made by federal agencies last year. Improper payments are defined as “those that should not have been made or were made in the incorrect amount.” The GAO’s findings are an underestimate since not all federal agencies provided information on improper payments.

Improper payments have increased over time. In 2003 there were $35 billion in improper payments. The number first broke $100 billion in 2009. It increased each year from 2017 to 2021, rising from $141 billion to the peak of $281 billion. It has declined in the past two years but remains much higher than it was before the Covid pandemic.

The GAO classifies improper payments into four categories: overpayments, underpayments, technically improper payments, and unknown payments. If errors were random, we would expect to see roughly the same amount of overpayments as underpayments. But 74 percent of improper payments last year were overpayments, the GAO found. Only 5 percent were underpayments. Nineteen percent were unknown, and 2 percent were technical.

Four-fifths of the improper payments in 2023 came from just five government programs: Medicare, Medicaid, expanded federal unemployment insurance, the earned-income tax credit, and the Paycheck Protection Program. Last year, the GAO found that about one-seventh of expanded federal unemployment insurance given between April 2020 and May 2023 was fraudulent. Also last year, the Department of Labor inspector general found that 22 percent of pandemic-era federal unemployment payments were improper.

Sixteen federal programs reported improper-payment rates of 10 percent or higher. The Paycheck Protection Program was highest, with two components of that program reporting improper-payment rates of 49.1 percent and 40.5 percent. Next came the disaster-assistance program from the Farm Service Agency at 40.4 percent, and 33.5 percent of payments related to the earned-income tax credit were improper. Programs of the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Health and Human Services, and the Corporation for National and Community Service are also included in the 16 programs.

The GAO found eight success stories of programs that decreased improper payments, but four of those were programs that had expired or were terminated. The other four — Medicaid and three programs within the Department of Education — decreased improper payments because they implemented better program controls.

To put $236 billion in perspective, the budget of the Department of Justice in 2023 was $37 billion. The budget of the Department of State was $58 billion. The federal government made improper payments multiple times greater than the entire budgets of the cabinet departments tasked with law enforcement and diplomacy last year.
Don’t know about a failure until it transpires. If it does, might get him out of the Bibi-crack he has fallen into with certain parts of the polity.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
a fan
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Re: American Educational System

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:15 pm The latest Dem Socialist failures :
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... ebt-plans/
Oh, this is EASY to fix.

Tell taxpayers that the DoEd is "part of the military".

Then this is a rounding error, and naturally, fake conservatives won't care.

They teach people how to add and subtract in the Academies? Yes, right?

But sure, they just "can't figure out" how to balance their books.

Only "other people" have to be fiscally responsible, and accountable for their spending, right OS?

Those farmers paying back all those years of taxpayer handouts they get yet, OS? Who cares, right?

But sure, you and the National Review are concerned about spending now that the letter D is in office.


https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... -stagnant/
OCanada
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Re: American Educational System

Post by OCanada »

old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:25 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:18 am
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am It would be nice if you and the right wing knew the meaning of the word socialism you misuse so much.
Just like his fellow Republicans, he thinks he gets to decide what that word means. Oh, and the best part? He'll never tell you what his definition is, because he knows if he does that, he's stuck defending a dumb*ss (and hilariously wrong) definition of the word.

His alma mater is a socialist institution: owned and operated by the Federal Government. Government employees run it, and do aaalllll the teaching.
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am I remember being at a Hopkins Navy lacrosse game sometime around 2010 or so. 5 mids are walking by me. One said “ What has Hopkins ever done for the country.”
Meh. Kids. They don't know any better. Pretty sure the smart ones know that the guys the go to when they get hurt were trained at places like Hopkins.
Hopkins has been well compensated for any research conducted for DoD.
Mids go to Bethesda for med care beyond the USNA clinic.
USNA is a military vo-tech school whose grads pay for their education via obligated service.
That's not socialism. It's a basic govt function. You (+ Bernie & AOC) think EVERYTHING .gov does is socialism
That is not true. What is true is quite the reverse. The fight wing considers socialism almost anything that helps citizens and is paid for from taxes. The great irony is the greatest beneficiaries are from rural america the very people who benefit most.

As an aside there is grumbling from some corners of the GOP about using government funds to replacece the Key Bridge. It was not long ago they were voting against hurricane disaster aid for NY and NY etc. whike being the biggest users of hurricane disaster aid. All paid for by the taxpayer
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: American Educational System

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

OCanada wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:33 am
old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:25 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:18 am
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am It would be nice if you and the right wing knew the meaning of the word socialism you misuse so much.
Just like his fellow Republicans, he thinks he gets to decide what that word means. Oh, and the best part? He'll never tell you what his definition is, because he knows if he does that, he's stuck defending a dumb*ss (and hilariously wrong) definition of the word.

His alma mater is a socialist institution: owned and operated by the Federal Government. Government employees run it, and do aaalllll the teaching.
OCanada wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:52 am I remember being at a Hopkins Navy lacrosse game sometime around 2010 or so. 5 mids are walking by me. One said “ What has Hopkins ever done for the country.”
Meh. Kids. They don't know any better. Pretty sure the smart ones know that the guys the go to when they get hurt were trained at places like Hopkins.
Hopkins has been well compensated for any research conducted for DoD.
Mids go to Bethesda for med care beyond the USNA clinic.
USNA is a military vo-tech school whose grads pay for their education via obligated service.
That's not socialism. It's a basic govt function. You (+ Bernie & AOC) think EVERYTHING .gov does is socialism
That is not true. What is true is quite the reverse. The fight wing considers socialism almost anything that helps citizens and is paid for from taxes. The great irony is the greatest beneficiaries are from rural america the very people who benefit most.

As an aside there is grumbling from some corners of the GOP about using government funds to replacece the Key Bridge. It was not long ago they were voting against hurricane disaster aid for NY and NY etc. whike being the biggest users of hurricane disaster aid. All paid for by the taxpayer
Let's note, yet again, that Salty refuses to actually define socialism.

Moreover, functions fully owned and operated by government, paid for by taxpayers, is a "basic government function', "not socialism", but other services provided by government, no government ownership involved, whether through government employees or through private business are "socialism", and...that's not ok. Apparently those aren't "basic functions of government"?

Love how he claims that paid employees of government are actually paying for their education through obligated government service...apparently it's not the taxpayers. Do officers who went to a government paid military academy get paid less than those of equal rank who enlisted and were promoted without that military "vo-tech school"? If so, that's news to me but might support his argument...if so, how much less and for how long is it lower?

My brother-in-law in my basement left Annapolis before his first year ended but is still eligible for numerous veterans benefits 45 years later...blows my mind that he thinks of himself as a "veteran", but these benefits are pretty sweet...like VA loans. Lower rates and no deposit. Apparently showing up for even a day qualifies, as long as not dishonorably discharged.
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old salt
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Re: American Educational System

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:55 am Love how he claims that paid employees of government are actually paying for their education through obligated government service...apparently it's not the taxpayers. Do officers who went to a government paid military academy get paid less than those of equal rank who enlisted and were promoted without that military "vo-tech school"? If so, that's news to me but might support his argument...if so, how much less and for how long is it lower?

My brother-in-law in my basement left Annapolis before his first year ended but is still eligible for numerous veterans benefits 45 years later...blows my mind that he thinks of himself as a "veteran", but these benefits are pretty sweet...like VA loans. Lower rates and no deposit. Apparently showing up for even a day qualifies, as long as not dishonorably discharged.
All service members, regardless of branch, sign on for a total 8yr commitment. That commitment can be broken up between Active and Reserve time. Officers incur a service obligation for accepting a commission, on top of any additional/concurrent incurred commitments for school financial aid or academy attendance. This can be anywhere from 3–6 years active duty obligated service.

If you enlist in the Navy, you incur a 4 yr active duty obligation.
If you accept a commission, the active duty "payback" period depends on how much the service has invested in training you.
If you come in with a degree & go to OCS, your active duty payback is 3 years. Longer w/ follow-on specialized training.
The remaining reserve commitment may be in an inactive reserve status, subject to recall.

If you get a VA home loan, you still have to make the payments.
You can sometimes get a better deal with a conventional loan -- I did so with 2 assumptions.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: American Educational System

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:22 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:55 am Love how he claims that paid employees of government are actually paying for their education through obligated government service...apparently it's not the taxpayers. Do officers who went to a government paid military academy get paid less than those of equal rank who enlisted and were promoted without that military "vo-tech school"? If so, that's news to me but might support his argument...if so, how much less and for how long is it lower?

My brother-in-law in my basement left Annapolis before his first year ended but is still eligible for numerous veterans benefits 45 years later...blows my mind that he thinks of himself as a "veteran", but these benefits are pretty sweet...like VA loans. Lower rates and no deposit. Apparently showing up for even a day qualifies, as long as not dishonorably discharged.
All service members, regardless of branch, sign on for a total 8yr commitment. That commitment can be broken up between Active and Reserve time. Officers incur a service obligation for accepting a commission, on top of any additional/concurrent incurred commitments for school financial aid or academy attendance. This can be anywhere from 3–6 years active duty obligated service.

If you enlist in the Navy, you incur a 4 yr active duty obligation.
If you accept a commission, the active duty "payback" period depends on how much the service has invested in training you.
If you come in with a degree & go to OCS, your active duty payback is 3 years. Longer w/ follow-on specialized training.
The remaining reserve commitment may be in an inactive reserve status, subject to recall.

If you get a VA home loan, you still have to make the payments.
You can sometimes get a better deal with a conventional loan -- I did so with 2 assumptions.
So, I think that "answers" my question. :roll:
Military academy graduates get the same pay according to rank as does anyone else at same rank. Not less.
They have a running start on rank given the 4 years of service factoring into rank, but the key point is that they don't get less.

My son's good friend, college lacrosse player from UNC, no ROTC, but OCS post college gets paid the same per rank as if coming out of Annapolis or West Point or Air Force or whatever. But he paid for his college education, not the taxpayer. SEAL officer...'somewhere in Africa'.

Sure, you can 'assume' someone else's lower interest rate from a prior period when rates were lower, but apples to apples, the VA loan is a sweet deal. Lower interest and full cost of $500k home would never have been what my currently unemployed brother-in-law would have received in private market otherwise than enhanced by VA.

BTW, I don't have any issues with all that other than the notion that benefits accrue as soon as you go one day to Academy...that's nonsensical IMO. But I want the military choice to be attractive, we need good people serving.

Bottomline, you continue to avoid a fan's simple definition question.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:25 pm Hopkins has been well compensated for any research conducted for DoD.
So what?
old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:25 pm Mids go to Bethesda for med care beyond the USNA clinic.
And where did the people there get their medical degrees? Out of a cereal box?
old salt wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:25 pm USNA is a military vo-tech school whose grads pay for their education via obligated service.
That's not socialism. It's a basic govt function. You (+ Bernie & AOC) think EVERYTHING .gov does is socialism
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Says the toddler who refuses to use the actual definition of socialism, and thinks that he gets to tell the world what that word means.

And the best part? You won't tell us what you think that words means, so that you can move the goalposts around from case to case, and tell us that stuff you like is "basic government function", and stuff you don't like is "socialism".

Why do you act like this? This is something a child does, OS.



BTW, using your idiotic definition, single payer government health care and free higher ed is considered "basic government function" in every single 1st world country other than the US.

"Therefore", using your stupid, idiotic, definition of the word socialism, Canada's health care system isn't socialism, and neither is Frances. And there's no such thing as socialism, so long as "some guy" considers the socialism to be "basic government function". :roll:


I can't believe you type this stuff. You should be embarrassed by this behavior.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:42 pm
Bottomline, you continue to avoid a fan's simple definition question.
Yep. Like a petulant child, he KNOWS he's acting like a moron, and knows perfectly well that if you want to know the definition of a word, you use a freaking dictionary.


Socialism : any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Does the government own and operate the entity? That's socialism.

He fights this because his political party told him since he was a toddler that "socialism is bad"......"therefore", Old Salt can't possibly be a socialist. :roll:

It's so stupid, and a waste of his own time, let alone ours.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:14 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:42 pm
Bottomline, you continue to avoid a fan's simple definition question.
Yep. Like a petulant child, he KNOWS he's acting like a moron, and knows perfectly well that if you want to know the definition of a word, you use a freaking dictionary.


Socialism : any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Does the government own and operate the entity? That's socialism.

He fights this because his political party told him since he was a toddler that "socialism is bad"......"therefore", Old Salt can't possibly be a socialist. :roll:

It's so stupid, and a waste of his own time, let alone ours.
When the government showed up and offered to help, Old Salt jumped at the government assistance.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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youthathletics
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Re: American Educational System

Post by youthathletics »

No dog in this fight, but let's not assume socialism does not have its limitation and can be a negative...both you and OS can be accurate when viewing the term from differing perspectives. I don't understand the piling on, we know full well OS is not a dummy.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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Jim Malone
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Re: American Educational System

Post by Jim Malone »

How the heck did FASFA get broken?

What was seamless is now a nightmare.

Worked excellent for my four back in day.
The parent, not the coach.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: American Educational System

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:59 pm No dog in this fight, but let's not assume socialism does not have its limitation and can be a negative...both you and OS can be accurate when viewing the term from differing perspectives. I don't understand the piling on, we know full well OS is not a dummy.
No, we can assume he’s not a dummy. A fan said he’s acting like a moron. That’s worse than actually being one in my book. He knows better.

Of course pure socialism, the ownership of All property and production has had very little success outside of small instances.

Just as pure capitalism is horrendously poor at creating a just, sustainable society.

We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society but the demonization of one or the other is flat stupidity. Knowingly doing so is worse.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:59 pm No dog in this fight, but let's not assume socialism does not have its limitation and can be a negative.
That is 100% not it. We're not arguing that some forms of socialism are good and some are bad. Because OF COUSE that's the case, and is where opinion comes in.

What OS (and FoxNation, while we're at it) is arguing that if they PERSONALLY like the socialism, that means it's "just government".

And if they DON"T PERSONALLY like the socialism, well, that means it's socialism.

It's petty, small, and childish to act like this is the case. OS is upset that he's a card carrying socialist, and his ENTIRE livelihood is 100% dependent on socialism: he was educated, trained, paid, and pensioned (including lifetime free health insurance) by the Federal government. He was a Federal employee, and a Federal Student at a Federally owned and operated College.

So he comes in and tells us it isn't socialism.

THAT is why we are arguing: he is, as you say, not a dummy, and knows perfectly well that every word above is true. He just wants to stomp his feet and hold his breath because I had the temerity to point out that he is, and was, by definition, a socialist.



You want to discuss DEGREES of socialism, and what is good policy, and what isn't? That's fair game.

But what you DON"T get to do is play this FoxNation game of "it's not socialism if I personally benefit from it. It's only socialism is "someone else" benefits from the socialism".

This is a HUGE part of why we are where we are in America: millions of Americans have convinced themselves that UMich, UAlabama, and UMaryland aren't socialist institutions. It's both stupid, and annoying. It's BIG GOVERNMENT SOCIALISM.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:47 pm We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........
Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.
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Re: American Educational System

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:52 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:47 pm We can reasonably talk about what BALANCE is most effective at creating a successful, sustainable society........
Yes. But that's not the discussion at hand. This is about a full grown adult throwing a temper tantrum, telling us that a University that is owned and operated by the Federal government isn't socialism.
It’s not socialism because you pay for it with service….while getting paid to serve.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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