NU at UNC 3/25

[Bart]

Right up top, I acknowledge that I'm riffing off a previous post without quote/tagging because this is a sentiment that often gets voiced in the mainstream. I am addressing that general sentiment, not a specific poster. They just happened to be the one who inspired these thoughts.

For my part, I was glad to see Dylan Amonte rip her FU goal at the end. She took a lot of abuse out on the field during the course of the game. She'll have plenty of bumps and bruises to show for it. Meaghan Tyrrell recently shared on The Meg Show about a particular game with Boston College where she said she was tattooed after it was over with all the physical abuse she took.

This was not a pleasant game. Izzy Scane's gestures on her last goal spoke volumes of the bad blood that had come to a boil by game's end during yesterday's grudge match.

I'm glad when players get a little FU revenge at the end of a game like that. It obviously has the desired affect of aggravating the opponent and their fan base. BC's Belle Smith at the end of the Loyola quarterfinal in 2022. Hailey Rhatigan at the end of the '23 final versus Boston College. And Dylan Amonte last night.

Players are human. Sometimes they want to get the last word in for themselves or their teammates or both by sticking a goal with less than a minute left. I don't care who does it and I don't care what their rationale is for doing it--whether one of my favorite teams does it, or it's done to one of my favorite teams.

I'm sure every year, every team out there scores goals in less-than-a-minute-left garbage time. Does it make a difference if they were FU goals? Does it make a difference if the team just wanted the bench players/frosh to get on the scoresheet? What constitutes poor sportsmanship in that instance exactly?

Again--as I say--I don't care either way. You'll never read me complaining about it. It's between the players/coaches and only adds to the drama of the rematch, should one ever occur. As former Virginia Tech goaltender Angie Benson often says, our sport is too soft. She references instances like complaining about FU goals as evidence. I am in full agreement with her. Plus--if a team doesn't like FU goals, or garbage time goals, then they should do everything in their power to stop them. Stuffing an FU goal attempt I imagine would be immensely satisfying, and one thing, at least, for the defeated team to hang their hat on in the aftermath of a tough loss. You don't think Stella Harrison or the defenders around her would have occasion to jeer back at Amonte had Harrison made the save last night? How about Shea Dolce had she stymied Rhatigan? Or Lauren Spence on Belle Smith?

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

[watcherinthewoods]

I think NU is a scary match up for UNC on a normal day, but coming off a bad loss to PSU is all the motivation the Cats need to bring it in Chapel Hill. I think there is every possibility we see a repeat of the beat down Cuse put on the Heels a couple of weeks ago. NU's style of play, overwhelm opponents with speed and athleticism, could easily be more than the Heels can handle.

(If the above does not unfold, a reasonable person could start to wonder what is up in the NU locker room. With all of the talent on the roster my mind always goes to the state of team dynamics/chemistry. Could this be the root cause of the relatively bumpy ride for NU this season? Too soon to tell right now IMO, but putting it on the table)

I don't think its a chemistry issue; its lack of defensive depth. Last couple games it feels like KAH is having open tryouts for the last defensive spot on the field with S. White out

Agree and good point about defensive personnel. I did note several new faces in the defensive end for NU yesterday.

NU still looks to me a bit disjointed all over the field. The attack had long stretches with no goals ... and bobbled lots of balls. Not characteristic, right?

[forthelaxofit]

Don’t have any inside knowledge and am really just exercising my inherent poster-right to speculate, but if Ingrilli was healthy, wouldn’t she be playing? I thought there used to be a 50% rule, that is, if you played more than 50% of the year, you couldn’t red shirt even if you got injured. Is that still the rule?

I agree, if she were healthy I assume she'd be playing. No reason to believe that Nelson is injured. I don't think there's any set rule on how long you can play before injury to get the year back. It's totally at the discretion of NCAA.

Taylor falls a lot...I feel like im watching Stony Brook...

I was shocked that she stayed on her feet the first half. There's been at least 3 times this half that she's gone down and rolled around with no call against the defense. I ask again, why isn't that a card for flopping? I give the refs credit for not giving her a FP for the phantom foul but why no card for flopping? And again, she's a fantastic player. She doesn't need to do that.

They just said the averages 2 FP goals a game. I guess that's why she does it.

I watched the 2nd half after some of the comments posted. Taylor goes to the ground 7 times in the second half. Once a FP (missed). Once draws a Green Card. 1 Given possession after a stick check. 4 No calls. (My favorite no call is with 32 seconds left in third in the Eights, where she stays on ground for 6 seconds while play continues and NW takes 2 more shots while she is on ground). The awarded Green card and possession are both suspect calls in my mind. Good news – refs may not be calling flopping, but they aren’t just rewarding her for every flop either.

For reference, Coykendall and Scane each go to the ground once in the second half on hard hits (neither a flop). No other NW Attacker goes to ground in second half. Maybe someone should start a thread called “Top 10 Taylor flops” with the video clips. If so please include the 2 in the final 3 minutes of BC game. Both no call turnovers, both somehow she lost googles on the way down. Or maybe Michigan and Maryland should create a clip reel and submit before upcoming games?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

hmmm wrote the following about NU scoring the final goal in yesterday's game : "Especially considering NU has a history of doing this?"
REALLY?

Give this Thread "the history of doing this." Keep in mind the word History. Show that History.

Well Larry, I actually listed the most recent example. Rhatigan scored with no time remaining just last year in the NCAA Championship game to make the game 18-6. That recent enough history for you?

Respectfully--naming one incident does not a history make.

Yes, I realized some of the folks here wouldn't be satisfied with one example and either are not willing to do the easy search to see I'm correct or just would rather play dumb to it.

I hope 7 examples in the last 1.5 seasons fits the definition of history.

It definitely does. But I would also add that anyone can find evidence of any team doing it. I went back and perused a certain other team in the Big 10 and found two such examples on last years schedule. Both were blowout-running-clock-long over games where the team doing the stomping was still potting goals with less than a minute left.

[hmmm]

Don’t have any inside knowledge and am really just exercising my inherent poster-right to speculate, but if Ingrilli was healthy, wouldn’t she be playing? I thought there used to be a 50% rule, that is, if you played more than 50% of the year, you couldn’t red shirt even if you got injured. Is that still the rule?

I agree, if she were healthy I assume she'd be playing. No reason to believe that Nelson is injured. I don't think there's any set rule on how long you can play before injury to get the year back. It's totally at the discretion of NCAA.

Taylor falls a lot...I feel like im watching Stony Brook...

I was shocked that she stayed on her feet the first half. There's been at least 3 times this half that she's gone down and rolled around with no call against the defense. I ask again, why isn't that a card for flopping? I give the refs credit for not giving her a FP for the phantom foul but why no card for flopping? And again, she's a fantastic player. She doesn't need to do that.

They just said the averages 2 FP goals a game. I guess that's why she does it.

I watched the 2nd half after some of the comments posted. Taylor goes to the ground 7 times in the second half. Once a FP (missed). Once draws a Green Card. 1 Given possession after a stick check. 4 No calls. (My favorite no call is with 32 seconds left in third in the Eights, where she stays on ground for 6 seconds while play continues and NW takes 2 more shots while she is on ground). The awarded Green card and possession are both suspect calls in my mind. Good news – refs may not be calling flopping, but they aren’t just rewarding her for every flop either.

For reference, Coykendall and Scane each go to the ground once in the second half on hard hits (neither a flop). No other NW Attacker goes to ground in second half. Maybe someone should start a thread called “Top 10 Taylor flops” with the video clips. If so please include the 2 in the final 3 minutes of BC game. Both no call turnovers, both somehow she lost googles on the way down. Or maybe Michigan and Maryland should create a clip reel and submit before upcoming games?

I'm quite certain the coaches are talking to the officials about it before games now. She doesn't get as many of those calls on the road. At home indoors she was getting them pretty consistently.

[hmmm]

hmmm wrote the following about NU scoring the final goal in yesterday's game : "Especially considering NU has a history of doing this?"
REALLY?

Give this Thread "the history of doing this." Keep in mind the word History. Show that History.

Well Larry, I actually listed the most recent example. Rhatigan scored with no time remaining just last year in the NCAA Championship game to make the game 18-6. That recent enough history for you?

Respectfully--naming one incident does not a history make.

Yes, I realized some of the folks here wouldn't be satisfied with one example and either are not willing to do the easy search to see I'm correct or just would rather play dumb to it.

I hope 7 examples in the last 1.5 seasons fits the definition of history.

It definitely does. But I would also add that anyone can find evidence of any team doing it. I went back and perused a certain other team in the Big 10 and found two such examples on last years schedule. Both were blowout-running-clock-long over games where the team doing the stomping was still potting goals with less than a minute left.

For the record, I don't agree with any team doing it. It's hard to tell players that don't see the field very often not to try and score. But once you get inside the last couple mins it's time to call of the dogs. At least in my humble opinion.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

I feel like this is a gotcha question but okay--I'll play.

No, of course not. A goaltender isn't physically hurt by an FU goal.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

For the record, I don't agree with any team doing it.

I'm indifferent on this point, but I can see where you're coming from.

It's hard to tell players that don't see the field very often not to try and score.

Fully agree here.

[hmmm]

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

I feel like this is a gotcha question but okay--I'll play.

No, of course not. A goaltender isn't physically hurt by an FU goal.

Think what he's asking is if a player decides to go to goal at the end of a blowout and a defender decides to put her on her ass is that acceptable. Because that's what is going to happen and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

I feel like this is a gotcha question but okay--I'll play.

No, of course not. A goaltender isn't physically hurt by an FU goal.

Think what he's asking is if a player decides to go to goal at the end of a blowout and a defender decides to put her on her ass is that acceptable. Because that's what is going to happen and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

I'm never okay with players trying to deliberately hurt each other--most certainly not over FU goals. However, if one player cheap shots a player on the opposing team, then it's open season for a retaliatory strike. I saw Kara Klages bring the hammer down on BC in the ACC championship back in 2018. It was highly warranted.

[NULax2]

hmmm wrote the following about NU scoring the final goal in yesterday's game : "Especially considering NU has a history of doing this?"
REALLY?

Give this Thread "the history of doing this." Keep in mind the word History. Show that History.

In addition to the Championship game, the following occurred just within the last 1.5 seasons. I think I've proven my point, but maybe you don't consider this to be "History" so you can do the rest of the research yourself.

Just this year:
Scored with 30 seconds left against Albany to make the score 25-8(Scored 3 goals in last 4.5 mins)
Scored with 1:17 left against Central Michigan to make the score 27-3(It was 19-3 after 3 qtrs so scored 8 more in 4th including 4 goals in last 5.5 mins)
Scored with 1:08 left against Marquette to make the score 21-3 (Scored 3 goals in last 4.5 mins)

Last Year:
Scored with 47 seconds left against Vandy to make the score 24-7
Scored with 1 second left against Youngstown St to make score 24-3

Without looking up the actual players that scored. I am 99% sure that they were scored by the bench.
KAH doesn't leave her starters in at the end of blowout games.
And I have NO problems with the bench scoring when they get a chance to play.
Sorry that you have a problem with it.

[Bart]

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

I feel like this is a gotcha question but okay--I'll play.

No, of course not. A goaltender isn't physically hurt by an FU goal.

No. Wasn’t a gotcha question. Was a question. Thanks for answering.

I think there is a difference between a sub scoring late and a starter whom you call a FU goal. Each coach chooses the personnel and strategy at the end of a game and the FU goal lies in their lap. I have no problem with a coach handling this as they see fit but I also don’t want to hear any coach cry crocodile tears if a player gets hurt as a result of a frustration foul occurring during the scoring of an FU goal. I do not think that is appropriate but I am also surprised it hasn’t happened yet.

I am always amazed at how long starting players are left in a game when the outcome has been decided.

[Bart]

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

I feel like this is a gotcha question but okay--I'll play.

No, of course not. A goaltender isn't physically hurt by an FU goal.

Think what he's asking is if a player decides to go to goal at the end of a blowout and a defender decides to put her on her ass is that acceptable. Because that's what is going to happen and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

Yep….^^^this^*^

[laxmenow]

+1000 !

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Interesting. I may agree with you to a point. But, if you are glad at a little FU revenge would you also be ok/glad if a player on the end of the FU revenge acted out physically on the shooter? Would this be poor sportsmanship or just cleaning house....so to speak.

I feel like this is a gotcha question but okay--I'll play.

No, of course not. A goaltender isn't physically hurt by an FU goal.

No. Wasn’t a gotcha question. Was a question. Thanks for answering.

I think there is a difference between a sub scoring late and a starter whom you call a FU goal. Each coach chooses the personnel and strategy at the end of a game and the FU goal lies in their lap. I have no problem with a coach handling this as they see fit but I also don’t want to hear any coach cry crocodile tears if a player gets hurt as a result of a frustration foul occurring during the scoring of an FU goal. I do not think that is appropriate but I am also surprised it hasn’t happened yet.

I am always amazed at how long starting players are left in a game when the outcome has been decided.

Agreed. All part of the not-condoned-but-understandable sequence of events when an FU goal is delivered.

[hmmm]

hmmm wrote the following about NU scoring the final goal in yesterday's game : "Especially considering NU has a history of doing this?"
REALLY?

Give this Thread "the history of doing this." Keep in mind the word History. Show that History.

In addition to the Championship game, the following occurred just within the last 1.5 seasons. I think I've proven my point, but maybe you don't consider this to be "History" so you can do the rest of the research yourself.

Just this year:
Scored with 30 seconds left against Albany to make the score 25-8(Scored 3 goals in last 4.5 mins)
Scored with 1:17 left against Central Michigan to make the score 27-3(It was 19-3 after 3 qtrs so scored 8 more in 4th including 4 goals in last 5.5 mins)
Scored with 1:08 left against Marquette to make the score 21-3 (Scored 3 goals in last 4.5 mins)

Last Year:
Scored with 47 seconds left against Vandy to make the score 24-7
Scored with 1 second left against Youngstown St to make score 24-3

Without looking up the actual players that scored. I am 99% sure that they were scored by the bench.
KAH doesn't leave her starters in at the end of blowout games.
And I have NO problems with the bench scoring when they get a chance to play.
Sorry that you have a problem with it.

It's not just scoring in blowouts. As I said, I get that you cant tell players that don't get to play very much to just play catch for the whole quarter. I'm just talking about taking last second shots. And that doesn't just apply to blowouts. It's games that are over and an extra goal is scored for no reason such as what happened in last 10 secs yesterday. KAH could have had Amonte pull the ball out, as SSB stated she expected because the game was over. She didn't.

Other recent examples of non-bench players scoring late meaningless goals:
The aforementioned Rhatigan goal at the final buzzer to make championship game 18-6.
Sam Smith scored a man up goal with the shot clock off with 33 secs left against Cuse to make the game 18-14.
Izzy scored with 1 second left against Stony Brook to make the game 13-8.
Izzy scored with 1:15 left and shot clock off against OSU to make the score 17-10

This is just in last 1.5 seasons. I'm not going to keep going back. I was challenged by Larry on stating that NU has a history of scoring what ONW calls FU goals. I think I've made my point. Of course NU isn't the only team that does this. It is far more prevalent in the women's game than the men's. Maybe because of the more physical nature of the men's game and there are often consequences for things like this in mlax.

[GratefulRed]

Don’t have any inside knowledge and am really just exercising my inherent poster-right to speculate, but if Ingrilli was healthy, wouldn’t she be playing? I thought there used to be a 50% rule, that is, if you played more than 50% of the year, you couldn’t red shirt even if you got injured. Is that still the rule?

I agree, if she were healthy I assume she'd be playing. No reason to believe that Nelson is injured. I don't think there's any set rule on how long you can play before injury to get the year back. It's totally at the discretion of NCAA.

Taylor falls a lot...I feel like im watching Stony Brook...

I was shocked that she stayed on her feet the first half. There's been at least 3 times this half that she's gone down and rolled around with no call against the defense. I ask again, why isn't that a card for flopping? I give the refs credit for not giving her a FP for the phantom foul but why no card for flopping? And again, she's a fantastic player. She doesn't need to do that.

They just said the averages 2 FP goals a game. I guess that's why she does it.

I watched the 2nd half after some of the comments posted. Taylor goes to the ground 7 times in the second half. Once a FP (missed). Once draws a Green Card. 1 Given possession after a stick check. 4 No calls. (My favorite no call is with 32 seconds left in third in the Eights, where she stays on ground for 6 seconds while play continues and NW takes 2 more shots while she is on ground). The awarded Green card and possession are both suspect calls in my mind. Good news – refs may not be calling flopping, but they aren’t just rewarding her for every flop either.

For reference, Coykendall and Scane each go to the ground once in the second half on hard hits (neither a flop). No other NW Attacker goes to ground in second half. Maybe someone should start a thread called “Top 10 Taylor flops” with the video clips. If so please include the 2 in the final 3 minutes of BC game. Both no call turnovers, both somehow she lost googles on the way down. Or maybe Michigan and Maryland should create a clip reel and submit before upcoming games?

I'm quite certain the coaches are talking to the officials about it before games now. She doesn't get as many of those calls on the road. At home indoors she was getting them pretty consistently.

Good stuff. I thought the officials did a nice job in this game. It must be quite an assignment to officiate NU games—diving, illegal picks, camping in the defensive 8, constant stickwork and relentless coach. Then you look at the other sideline and see Levy and Co. They know a thing or two about working the refs. Love to hear from our (ex) officials who they would rather (not) work with all day.

In this game specifically, I appreciated the multiple 3 sec calls, illegal pick on 27, extended groundball battles without whistles and not falling for the all the falling. One call I would like to see made differently… defender drawing a charge call by crosschecking the attacker then falling back? (7:54 3rd qtr)

Again, I agree that diving should be carded--otherwise it is only incentivized. Penalizing it has had the desired effect in hockey.

[Seacoaster(1)]

I have always believed that NU players are instructed to go hard and physical from the jump in order to influence the officiating the rest of the game -- to allow for a more physical game. NU No. 24 had at least three incidents yesterday that might have warranted a yellow card. This is how KAH coaches her charges to play.

[laxfan9999]

Regarding the FU goals, a lot of times something happens between the benches resulting in the player taking it to goal. in the Niagara/ Fairfield game, fairfield was up 12-7 with two minutes left. Niagara started playing dirty/chippy and you could hear the Fairfield coach say take it to goal and they scored two meaningless goals. It was mostly the result of the other team bringing it on them. In that case, i don't blame them. Amonte took a beating yesterday and I have no problem with her scoring in a game like that.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

It's games that are over and an extra goal is scored for no reason such as what happened in last 10 secs yesterday.

I think there was a big reason, however ignoble, for Amonte to rip her FU goal. She was on the receiving end of some brutality during the game. And if you saw Izzy's gestures after she scored to make it 15-10, there were some hard feelings flying around. She rarely ever reacts like that. She was pissed about something. I think the whole team was. Factor the 2022 semifinal into the whole mix and... FU.