NIL and Lacrosse

[pcowlax]

Many football players and a number of basketball payers are making > 1 million in NIL. Obviously nothing like that in lax nor will there ever be. The Varsity Blues saga was interesting but not really related here. Those were people paying to try to get into the school. NIL is schools paying to try to get kids to come to their school, it is the exact opposite. Most lax players also come from very different backgrounds than most top level basketball and football players (that is of course generalizing and there are exceptions). If a lax player is being recruited by and able to get into Cornell, they are almost certainly not going to be poached by Canisius because the Golden Griffins offer $75K in NIL money. Within the top flight though? Certainly could impact. If a kid is deciding between Duke and UVA and one offers $50K on top of scholarship?
As for growing the game, of course that would be nice but I think some expectations are unrealistic and frankly unnecessary. Lax is a niche sport. It will always be a niche sport. What is the last sport that transitioned from "niche" to mainstream? All 4 major professional sports have been the most popular sports in the US for 75+ years (some like football initially were more popular as college sports). Soccer has grown massively but a) is the most popular sport in the world with massive professional TV presence from leagues around the world and hundreds of millions of fans and b) still has virtually no college presence on TV nor does it draw bigger college crowds than lax (usually smaller). Yes, it has many more kids playing but that is because of the lack of equipment needs and its international preeminence. Hockey has expanded its youth footprint with expanding NHL cities in the south. Outside of that, no sport has evolved beyond niche. In fact, its the opposite. Boxing, horse racing and to some extent tennis and much less popular than they used to be. Trying to make the sport the best it can be is more important than making it the biggest it can be (and thus sixes suck).

[coda]

Many football players and a number of basketball payers are making > 1 million in NIL. Obviously nothing like that in lax nor will there ever be. The Varsity Blues saga was interesting but not really related here. Those were people paying to try to get into the school. NIL is schools paying to try to get kids to come to their school, it is the exact opposite. Most lax players also come from very different backgrounds than most top level basketball and football players (that is of course generalizing and there are exceptions). If a lax player is being recruited by and able to get into Cornell, they are almost certainly not going to be poached by Canisius because the Golden Griffins offer $75K in NIL money. Within the top flight though? Certainly could impact. If a kid is deciding between Duke and UVA and one offers $50K on top of scholarship?
As for growing the game, of course that would be nice but I think some expectations are unrealistic and frankly unnecessary. Lax is a niche sport. It will always be a niche sport. What is the last sport that transitioned from "niche" to mainstream? All 4 major professional sports have been the most popular sports in the US for 75+ years (some like football initially were more popular as college sports). Soccer has grown massively but a) is the most popular sport in the world with massive professional TV presence from leagues around the world and hundreds of millions of fans and b) still has virtually no college presence on TV nor does it draw bigger college crowds than lax (usually smaller). Yes, it has many more kids playing but that is because of the lack of equipment needs and its international preeminence. Hockey has expanded its youth footprint with expanding NHL cities in the south. Outside of that, no sport has evolved beyond niche. In fact, its the opposite. Boxing, horse racing and to some extent tennis and much less popular than they used to be. Trying to make the sport the best it can be is more important than making it the biggest it can be (and thus sixes suck).

It is all possible, but if you said professional football and basketball would eclipse the interest of Baseball and boxing around the turn of the century (1900s), people would have openly mocked you. You have seen tremendous growth in those sports. He have seen baseball on a huge decline. No idea how this all shakes out, but the push against football at youth levels could open doors. It will take generations to see how that plays out though.

[viho]

Many football players and a number of basketball payers are making > 1 million in NIL. Obviously nothing like that in lax nor will there ever be. The Varsity Blues saga was interesting but not really related here. Those were people paying to try to get into the school. NIL is schools paying to try to get kids to come to their school, it is the exact opposite. Most lax players also come from very different backgrounds than most top level basketball and football players (that is of course generalizing and there are exceptions). If a lax player is being recruited by and able to get into Cornell, they are almost certainly not going to be poached by Canisius because the Golden Griffins offer $75K in NIL money. Within the top flight though? Certainly could impact. If a kid is deciding between Duke and UVA and one offers $50K on top of scholarship?
As for growing the game, of course that would be nice but I think some expectations are unrealistic and frankly unnecessary. Lax is a niche sport. It will always be a niche sport. What is the last sport that transitioned from "niche" to mainstream? All 4 major professional sports have been the most popular sports in the US for 75+ years (some like football initially were more popular as college sports). Soccer has grown massively but a) is the most popular sport in the world with massive professional TV presence from leagues around the world and hundreds of millions of fans and b) still has virtually no college presence on TV nor does it draw bigger college crowds than lax (usually smaller). Yes, it has many more kids playing but that is because of the lack of equipment needs and its international preeminence. Hockey has expanded its youth footprint with expanding NHL cities in the south. Outside of that, no sport has evolved beyond niche. In fact, its the opposite. Boxing, horse racing and to some extent tennis and much less popular than they used to be. Trying to make the sport the best it can be is more important than making it the biggest it can be (and thus sixes suck).

Pickleball and cornhole have gone mainstream. Saw the first cornhole scholarships recently. Maybe these should be classified as games instead of sports but there are massive marketing opportunities that could equal cash.

[44WeWantMore]

Many football players and a number of basketball payers are making > 1 million in NIL. Obviously nothing like that in lax nor will there ever be. The Varsity Blues saga was interesting but not really related here. Those were people paying to try to get into the school. NIL is schools paying to try to get kids to come to their school, it is the exact opposite. Most lax players also come from very different backgrounds than most top level basketball and football players (that is of course generalizing and there are exceptions). If a lax player is being recruited by and able to get into Cornell, they are almost certainly not going to be poached by Canisius because the Golden Griffins offer $75K in NIL money. Within the top flight though? Certainly could impact. If a kid is deciding between Duke and UVA and one offers $50K on top of scholarship?
As for growing the game, of course that would be nice but I think some expectations are unrealistic and frankly unnecessary. Lax is a niche sport. It will always be a niche sport. What is the last sport that transitioned from "niche" to mainstream? All 4 major professional sports have been the most popular sports in the US for 75+ years (some like football initially were more popular as college sports). Soccer has grown massively but a) is the most popular sport in the world with massive professional TV presence from leagues around the world and hundreds of millions of fans and b) still has virtually no college presence on TV nor does it draw bigger college crowds than lax (usually smaller). Yes, it has many more kids playing but that is because of the lack of equipment needs and its international preeminence. Hockey has expanded its youth footprint with expanding NHL cities in the south. Outside of that, no sport has evolved beyond niche. In fact, its the opposite. Boxing, horse racing and to some extent tennis and much less popular than they used to be. Trying to make the sport the best it can be is more important than making it the biggest it can be (and thus sixes suck).

The reason I brought up Varsity Blues was that it illustrated the value of guaranteed admissions (in one case, to Southern Cal): at least some will pay hundreds of thousands on top of tuition. So the compensation of lax players includes (1) The athletic scholarship, (2) The NIL cash, and (3) The value of the admit.

It is clear that, in your example of Cornell, the 'revealed preference" of recruits shows that the value of the admit there is huge. Who wouldn't want to go to an Ivy with the such a great lax tradition, assuming the coach can get you through admissions?

My point is that NIL might feel dirty, but its only one component of the total package of compensation a player is offered, and at the most desirable destinations, a minor one for many recruits.

[SCLaxAttack]

tx, cali and florida, yes.... have had that growth. and no big state u teams to be found. not a coincidence.

RE: the highlighted text, I’d be interested in anyone’s comments on how Duke, UNC, and even NCState picked up the sport when they did, particularly since I assume there wasn’t a lot of high school lax being played in RTP at the time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Bl ... s_lacrosse
it's wiki and all, but gives the timeline. duke (and unc in 1937) starts a club program in 1938. pretty organized including with all the acc schools that are playing. guessing uva and ga tech, maybe others. 1954 newly formed acc sanctions lacrosse. there is a trove of boxes evidently at the rubenstein library that can be checked in on of clippings, press guides, etc.

more interesting maybe... nc state rise and fall:
https://www.collegecrosse.com/2011/6/7/ ... e-wolfpack
col robert conroy wants a club lax team and school obliges. then elevates it to varsity the next year!!! stan cockerton happens, a run for a couple years, and then it's over. early 80's wasn't exactly boom time for the economy.
some of the same info but some other details:
https://lacrossebucket.com/2020/06/18/t ... sse-field/

anecdotal: what i got from jimmy v when he was assoc a.d. (& coach) and getting a pre-game cig in the hallway... he loved lacrosse, wanted to bring it back, but "issues". i asked if one of those was (beyond citing costs and losing $$ in the articles) trashing the dorm/hotel/building they were housed in at the time, which i had heard, he smiled and said they were good guys. read: confirmed.

Well, he did grow up in Seaford, LI. I played youth baseball with his younger brother. Always enjoyed the coaching by the Valvano dad, Rocco, who was Seaford’s AD at the time but had retired by the time I was in high school.

I didn’t know Duke and UNC lacrosse had been around so long. I assumed they started around the same time as NC State’s Cockerton’s years.

[SCLaxAttack]

Significant the times - maybe not lax but definitely basketball:

Watching the end of the Duke - UVM field of 64 game when a Duke player gets to the line. Don’t remember the player’s or announcer’s name, but the announcer says the player’s in his sixth year of eligibility and “I think he’ll finish his college career with three degrees.”

Something’s wrong.

[44WeWantMore]

You have to prefer three degrees to zero degrees.

[coda]

Significant the times - maybe not lax but definitely basketball:

Watching the end of the Duke - UVM field of 64 game when a Duke player gets to the line. Don’t remember the player’s or announcer’s name, but the announcer says the player’s in his sixth year of eligibility and “I think he’ll finish his college career with three degrees.”

Something’s wrong.

I do not like what’s going on. I would point to guys like the Georgia QB who was in college for 6 years, never graduated, and somehow was eligible every year. If the NCAA took their mission seriously, they would tie perks (extra years and transfer rights) to grade point average and credits. I respect a guy that got 3 degrees and used the system to his benefit. I loathe the professional college athlete, that is in his 6th year and leading the Bluto life (John Belushi Animal House character).

[SCLaxAttack]

Significant the times - maybe not lax but definitely basketball:

Watching the end of the Duke - UVM field of 64 game when a Duke player gets to the line. Don’t remember the player’s or announcer’s name, but the announcer says the player’s in his sixth year of eligibility and “I think he’ll finish his college career with three degrees.”

Something’s wrong.

I do not like what’s going on. I would point to guys like the Georgia QB who was in college for 6 years, never graduated, and somehow was eligible every year. If the NCAA took their mission seriously, they would tie perks (extra years and transfer rights) to grade point average and credits. I respect a guy that got 3 degrees and used the system to his benefit. I loathe the professional college athlete, that is in his 6th year and leading the Bluto life (John Belushi Animal House character).

Part of me is intrigued with using the Dartmouth unionization idea as a baseline. Have a players' union that sets salary and benefits guidelines for each sport and Division classification. Provide salary increases every year the athlete remains in school, thereby motivating the athlete to stay in school (assuming they won't make more money going to a pro league). Allow transfers, but the athlete returns to the year one salary guideline upon transfer. Eligibility for participation based on academics remain.

[coda]

Significant the times - maybe not lax but definitely basketball:

Watching the end of the Duke - UVM field of 64 game when a Duke player gets to the line. Don’t remember the player’s or announcer’s name, but the announcer says the player’s in his sixth year of eligibility and “I think he’ll finish his college career with three degrees.”

Something’s wrong.

I do not like what’s going on. I would point to guys like the Georgia QB who was in college for 6 years, never graduated, and somehow was eligible every year. If the NCAA took their mission seriously, they would tie perks (extra years and transfer rights) to grade point average and credits. I respect a guy that got 3 degrees and used the system to his benefit. I loathe the professional college athlete, that is in his 6th year and leading the Bluto life (John Belushi Animal House character).

Part of me is intrigued with using the Dartmouth unionization idea as a baseline. Have a players' union that sets salary and benefits guidelines for each sport and Division classification. Provide salary increases every year the athlete remains in school, thereby motivating the athlete to stay in school (assuming they won't make more money going to a pro league). Allow transfers, but the athlete returns to the year one salary guideline upon transfer. Eligibility for participation based on academics remain.

I’m actually laugh at that idea. You are playing a sport that cost your University money and you have the audacity to pretend you need a union, like you are a migrant worker. The delusions of today’s athletes never ceases to amaze me.

[44WeWantMore]

According to the NCAA, there are 520K student-athletes.

Figure there are a thousand who individually are difference-makers in FBall and MBBall. They would benefit from negotiating individually.

Figure there are 80 players across 100 FBall teams that are necessary for big-time FBall. 8,000.
Figure there are 10 players across 100 MBBall teams that are necessary for March Madness. 1,000.
So 9000 that would really benefit from collective bargaining.

So 10K athletes necessary for the revenue bus. OK, maybe my estimates are SWAGs, but you get the picture.

So, it is only 510 of the 520 thousand student athletes who are delusional.

[Red4Life]

Stating the obvious - NIL has forever changed the fabric of college athletics - followed closely by Transfer portal and the seemingly endless college eligibility brought on by COVID.
That being said - many top football and hoops men’s players have been paid “quietly” below the radar for decades. It’s just now acceptable at most all schools. The ripple impact of this will be felt for quite some time - kids are hoping from program to program like tech software sales guys - seeking the best financial offer - but overlooking or certainly minimizing the educational opportunities that accompany a 1. degree and 2. From a well known established college / university.

As for the “Dartmouth men’s hoops” unionization efforts . I’d urge the school leadership to simply disband the program rather than empower and enable this step. Dartmouth hoops likely costs the school a million - 1.5 million to operate. Chances are several on the squad had little chance of gaining admission to Dartmouth without their hoops skills - and most if not all were not exactly on the radars of any major D 1 program recruit lists. Not sure the exact records but Dartmouth hoops hasn't exactly been lighting up the W column !

As for established ACC / SEC etc donors - schools are now urging donors to dig deep to fund NIL collectives to pay kids ….who can in turn leave at the end of the year is portal to the next school.

At many schools (Ivys) Non Revenue sports teams have individual team fund raising goals to help support the ongoing operations of the teams - adding specialized equipment or improved meals / travel / etc.

NIL funds all come from outside donors - nothing short of amazing that people will dedicate their charitable giving to fund the bank accounts of 19-23 year olds who may or may not pan out athletically or even stay at the schools.


To quote Alec Guinness at end of Brodge on the River Kwai “Madness - madness!”

Sermon over - back to the Big Red - Yale game in conditions best suited for the Ididerode

[coda]

According to the NCAA, there are 520K student-athletes.

Figure there are a thousand who individually are difference-makers in FBall and MBBall. They would benefit from negotiating individually.

Figure there are 80 players across 100 FBall teams that are necessary for big-time FBall. 8,000.
Figure there are 10 players across 100 MBBall teams that are necessary for March Madness. 1,000.
So 9000 that would really benefit from collective bargaining.

So 10K athletes necessary for the revenue bus. OK, maybe my estimates are SWAGs, but you get the picture.

So, it is only 510 of the 520 thousand student athletes who are delusional.

What are they negotiating? Most athletes are a net cost to Universities. Let’s not pretend that P5 basketball and football players are in the same situation as lacrosse, field hockey, etc. If you push too hard, all you are going to do is force Universities to end non-revenue sports. It’s like the PLL trying to unionize to get the same pay as the NFL

[44WeWantMore]

Right 510K/520K student-athletes have nothing to negotioate over.
They are given a tremendous gift: An admission slot.

It is the remaining 10K athletes that could benefit from negotiations.

Edit to add, now that I think about it, the NCAA's count of 520K student athletes probabably includes DII and DIII, and many of them may not have been recruited for athletics.

[Farfromgeneva]

Many football players and a number of basketball payers are making > 1 million in NIL. Obviously nothing like that in lax nor will there ever be. The Varsity Blues saga was interesting but not really related here. Those were people paying to try to get into the school. NIL is schools paying to try to get kids to come to their school, it is the exact opposite. Most lax players also come from very different backgrounds than most top level basketball and football players (that is of course generalizing and there are exceptions). If a lax player is being recruited by and able to get into Cornell, they are almost certainly not going to be poached by Canisius because the Golden Griffins offer $75K in NIL money. Within the top flight though? Certainly could impact. If a kid is deciding between Duke and UVA and one offers $50K on top of scholarship?
As for growing the game, of course that would be nice but I think some expectations are unrealistic and frankly unnecessary. Lax is a niche sport. It will always be a niche sport. What is the last sport that transitioned from "niche" to mainstream? All 4 major professional sports have been the most popular sports in the US for 75+ years (some like football initially were more popular as college sports). Soccer has grown massively but a) is the most popular sport in the world with massive professional TV presence from leagues around the world and hundreds of millions of fans and b) still has virtually no college presence on TV nor does it draw bigger college crowds than lax (usually smaller). Yes, it has many more kids playing but that is because of the lack of equipment needs and its international preeminence. Hockey has expanded its youth footprint with expanding NHL cities in the south. Outside of that, no sport has evolved beyond niche. In fact, its the opposite. Boxing, horse racing and to some extent tennis and much less popular than they used to be. Trying to make the sport the best it can be is more important than making it the biggest it can be (and thus sixes suck).

The reason I brought up Varsity Blues was that it illustrated the value of guaranteed admissions (in one case, to Southern Cal): at least some will pay hundreds of thousands on top of tuition. So the compensation of lax players includes (1) The athletic scholarship, (2) The NIL cash, and (3) The value of the admit.

It is clear that, in your example of Cornell, the 'revealed preference" of recruits shows that the value of the admit there is huge. Who wouldn't want to go to an Ivy with the such a great lax tradition, assuming the coach can get you through admissions?

My point is that NIL might feel dirty, but its only one component of the total package of compensation a player is offered, and at the most desirable destinations, a minor one for many recruits.

I was friends w John VanderMoer FR yr of college. Stanford sailing coach involved. But he was a d**k I came to realize and wasn’t totally shocked to see him involved in something stupid and arrogant.

[Farfromgeneva]

Significant the times - maybe not lax but definitely basketball:

Watching the end of the Duke - UVM field of 64 game when a Duke player gets to the line. Don’t remember the player’s or announcer’s name, but the announcer says the player’s in his sixth year of eligibility and “I think he’ll finish his college career with three degrees.”

Something’s wrong.

I do not like what’s going on. I would point to guys like the Georgia QB who was in college for 6 years, never graduated, and somehow was eligible every year. If the NCAA took their mission seriously, they would tie perks (extra years and transfer rights) to grade point average and credits. I respect a guy that got 3 degrees and used the system to his benefit. I loathe the professional college athlete, that is in his 6th year and leading the Bluto life (John Belushi Animal House character).

How about this one

https://lemoynedolphins.com/sports/mens ... elson/5987

[Farfromgeneva]

Stating the obvious - NIL has forever changed the fabric of college athletics - followed closely by Transfer portal and the seemingly endless college eligibility brought on by COVID.
That being said - many top football and hoops men’s players have been paid “quietly” below the radar for decades. It’s just now acceptable at most all schools. The ripple impact of this will be felt for quite some time - kids are hoping from program to program like tech software sales guys - seeking the best financial offer - but overlooking or certainly minimizing the educational opportunities that accompany a 1. degree and 2. From a well known established college / university.

As for the “Dartmouth men’s hoops” unionization efforts . I’d urge the school leadership to simply disband the program rather than empower and enable this step. Dartmouth hoops likely costs the school a million - 1.5 million to operate. Chances are several on the squad had little chance of gaining admission to Dartmouth without their hoops skills - and most if not all were not exactly on the radars of any major D 1 program recruit lists. Not sure the exact records but Dartmouth hoops hasn't exactly been lighting up the W column !

As for established ACC / SEC etc donors - schools are now urging donors to dig deep to fund NIL collectives to pay kids ….who can in turn leave at the end of the year is portal to the next school.

At many schools (Ivys) Non Revenue sports teams have individual team fund raising goals to help support the ongoing operations of the teams - adding specialized equipment or improved meals / travel / etc.

NIL funds all come from outside donors - nothing short of amazing that people will dedicate their charitable giving to fund the bank accounts of 19-23 year olds who may or may not pan out athletically or even stay at the schools.


To quote Alec Guinness at end of Brodge on the River Kwai “Madness - madness!”

Sermon over - back to the Big Red - Yale game in conditions best suited for the Ididerode

Ever heard the name Bobby Lowder?

https://money.cnn.com/2009/10/09/news/c ... /index.htm

Your case would’ve been stronger if you had tied the analogy to the benefit of time and seasoning with a unit rather than tying it back to name prestige of a degree. Also to work with and through things not “flight” and create ones in reality which social media has accomplished just fine on it own. Work through something, can’t know one’s reliance level w/o stressors.

[Farfromgeneva]

According to the NCAA, there are 520K student-athletes.

Figure there are a thousand who individually are difference-makers in FBall and MBBall. They would benefit from negotiating individually.

Figure there are 80 players across 100 FBall teams that are necessary for big-time FBall. 8,000.
Figure there are 10 players across 100 MBBall teams that are necessary for March Madness. 1,000.
So 9000 that would really benefit from collective bargaining.

So 10K athletes necessary for the revenue bus. OK, maybe my estimates are SWAGs, but you get the picture.

So, it is only 510 of the 520 thousand student athletes who are delusional.

What are they negotiating? Most athletes are a net cost to Universities. Let’s not pretend that P5 basketball and football players are in the same situation as lacrosse, field hockey, etc. If you push too hard, all you are going to do is force Universities to end non-revenue sports. It’s like the PLL trying to unionize to get the same pay as the NFL

People test lines all the time. That’s why the smarter folks are looking beyond this current Wild West to figure out the other side unlike some BigTen fools from NJ running around here who’ve gotten everything wrong about the media industry and sports since they started not listening to how the playoffs work on LP years ago.

[Farfromgeneva]

Right 510K/520K student-athletes have nothing to negotioate over.
They are given a tremendous gift: An admission slot.

It is the remaining 10K athletes that could benefit from negotiations.

Edit to add, now that I think about it, the NCAA's count of 520K student athletes probabably includes DII and DIII, and many of them may not have been recruited for athletics.

I think you’d be surprised at the recruiting that goes on at D3. I don’t know for lacrosse but the top 100 football programs (there’s around 250 total) put real resources into it.

[Red4Life]

Stating the obvious - NIL has forever changed the fabric of college athletics - followed closely by Transfer portal and the seemingly endless college eligibility brought on by COVID.
That being said - many top football and hoops men’s players have been paid “quietly” below the radar for decades. It’s just now acceptable at most all schools. The ripple impact of this will be felt for quite some time - kids are hoping from program to program like tech software sales guys - seeking the best financial offer - but overlooking or certainly minimizing the educational opportunities that accompany a 1. degree and 2. From a well known established college / university.

As for the “Dartmouth men’s hoops” unionization efforts . I’d urge the school leadership to simply disband the program rather than empower and enable this step. Dartmouth hoops likely costs the school a million - 1.5 million to operate. Chances are several on the squad had little chance of gaining admission to Dartmouth without their hoops skills - and most if not all were not exactly on the radars of any major D 1 program recruit lists. Not sure the exact records but Dartmouth hoops hasn't exactly been lighting up the W column !

As for established ACC / SEC etc donors - schools are now urging donors to dig deep to fund NIL collectives to pay kids ….who can in turn leave at the end of the year is portal to the next school.

At many schools (Ivys) Non Revenue sports teams have individual team fund raising goals to help support the ongoing operations of the teams - adding specialized equipment or improved meals / travel / etc.

NIL funds all come from outside donors - nothing short of amazing that people will dedicate their charitable giving to fund the bank accounts of 19-23 year olds who may or may not pan out athletically or even stay at the schools.


To quote Alec Guinness at end of Brodge on the River Kwai “Madness - madness!”

Sermon over - back to the Big Red - Yale game in conditions best suited for the Ididerode

Ever heard the name Bobby Lowder?

https://money.cnn.com/2009/10/09/news/c ... /index.htm

Your case would’ve been stronger if you had tied the analogy to the benefit of time and seasoning with a unit rather than tying it back to name prestige of a degree. Also to work with and through things not “flight” and create ones in reality which social media has accomplished just fine on it own. Work through something, can’t know one’s reliance level w/o stressors.

Had never heard of Bobby Lowder - until now - great article - thanks for popping that on the page!!!