Tewaaraton Award 2024

[coda]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

I would have Malone near the top of the list. He has played some really good defenses. Played 2 Ivy teams and put up 16 pts in those 2 games.

[BigTurn]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

They will have 4 or 5 first team AA this year, they don't have the onions to leave O'Neil off first team.

I could see this happening too.. something like:

1st team: O'neill, Pkav, Shelly, and Brandau
2nd team: Kirst, Malone, M. Long, and prob Spallina

I’m a pkav guy and think he’s undoubtedly a 1st teamer but I just don’t see how they can leave Kirst off, guys a stud.

[coda]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

They will have 4 or 5 first team AA this year, they don't have the onions to leave O'Neil off first team.

I could see this happening too.. something like:

1st team: O'neill, Pkav, Shelly, and Brandau
2nd team: Kirst, Malone, M. Long, and prob Spallina

I’m a pkav guy and think he’s undoubtedly a 1st teamer but I just don’t see how they can leave Kirst off, guys a stud.

no matter what happens, someone deserving will be left off the list. Kirst's biggest problem is Michael Long. Right now Long is averaging more pts, than Kirst. Not sayin that is the be all, end all stat, but it makes the argument for Kirst much harder than the others on the list.

[lorin]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

They will have 4 or 5 first team AA this year, they don't have the onions to leave O'Neil off first team.

I could see this happening too.. something like:

1st team: O'neill, Pkav, Shelly, and Brandau
2nd team: Kirst, Malone, M. Long, and prob Spallina

I’m a pkav guy and think he’s undoubtedly a 1st teamer but I just don’t see how they can leave Kirst off, guys a stud.

no matter what happens, someone deserving will be left off the list.

Imo stats matter when certain players have good ones.

[GaitsRightHand]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

They will have 4 or 5 first team AA this year, they don't have the onions to leave O'Neil off first team.

I could see this happening too.. something like:

1st team: O'neill, Pkav, Shelly, and Brandau
2nd team: Kirst, Malone, M. Long, and prob Spallina

I’m a pkav guy and think he’s undoubtedly a 1st teamer but I just don’t see how they can leave Kirst off, guys a stud.

Agreed. Kirst is a beast. I wanted to put him on 1st team over O'Neill... but I can see IL calling #34 a first teamer.

Pkav #1 player on #1 team. Shelly is probably the best/most complete out of all 4 (imo). And Brandau is putting up ridiculous numbers, hard to keep him off this list. These 3 make sense to me.

Kirst announced he's coming back next year and is behind Long in points by 1 point. I feel like Kirst may end up the 1st guy off the 1st team because the selection committee wants to honor the seniors. Lots of lacrosse left, who knows how it'll all play out!

[coda]

That was my thought also on Kirst. I doubt many will look beyond the scoring numbers. Kirst's 12 turnovers vs Long's 20. Kirst's ridiculous 16 Cts vs 3 for Long. I happen to think Kirst is the best player in the Ivy, but I doubt people go beyond the simple pts accumulated.

[BigTurn]

That was my thought also on Kirst. I doubt many will look beyond the scoring numbers. Kirst's 12 turnovers vs Long's 20. Kirst's ridiculous 16 Cts vs 3 for Long. I happen to think Kirst is the best player in the Ivy, but I doubt people go beyond the simple pts accumulated.

Agreed. Anyone who watches Cornell can see he makes that team go. A lot of great intangibles and no stat hustle plays.

[The Orfling]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

[Gobigred]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

Or maybe the Enners, that has a better track record of identifying the outstanding player.

[The Orfling]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

Or maybe the Enners, that has a better track record of identifying the outstanding player.

Great thought. That would be a terrific honor. I don't have a sense of whether the Enners is also fairly playoff dependent, however? (And of course there are still conference tournaments and 1 more regular season game for Yale -- not assuming only Brandau could/should win.)

[Chousnake]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

Or maybe the Enners, that has a better track record of identifying the outstanding player.

They've been very consistent. The differences were Pannell over Stanwick in 2011, Crowley over Crotty in 2010, Danowski over Laveille in 2008, Johnson over Rotelli in 2003

[Gobigred]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

Or maybe the Enners, that has a better track record of identifying the outstanding player.

They've been very consistent. The differences were Pannell over Stanwick in 2011, Crowley over Crotty in 2010, Danowski over Laveille in 2008, Johnson over Rotelli in 2003

As in many things, the exceptions prove the rule.

[NYlax222]

Beyond the individual awards, going to be interesting to see whose named 1st, 2nd, 3rd, AA on attack. However it turns out, likely to be the most talented 2nd team AA unit in memory.

[10stone5]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

Or maybe the Enners, that has a better track record of identifying the outstanding player.

They've been very consistent. The differences were Pannell over Stanwick in 2011, Crowley over Crotty in 2010, Danowski over Laveille in 2008, Johnson over Rotelli in 2003

As in many things, the exceptions prove the rule.

Personally, that was one of the best individual stretches of lacrosse I've ever seen.
I'm talking about Steele Stanwick in his 2011 national championship season.
Stanwick is a high end all-timer.

[Finster]

Beyond the individual awards, going to be interesting to see whose named 1st, 2nd, 3rd, AA on attack. However it turns out, likely to be the most talented 2nd team AA unit in memory.

I'd agree on that.

It's part of a larger pattern in sports in general. Talent begets talent. Every so often, one player in a sport rises way above (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Serena Williams, and dare I say, Gary Gait?); it takes a few years for others to catch up, but when they do, the floodgates open to increased talent everywhere, and the original GOATS would probably be unable to compete with the newbies if they themselves had not improved. The GOAT play of old is today's pedestrian talent. The last semi-GOAT in lax was Pat Spencer, imo; many kids today play like Spencer.

In lacrosse, IMHO, one reason why the game is both better as well as more frustrating for the partisan fan is no one team or even player seemingly right now can differentiate themselves, yet the caliber of play across the board is light years better everywhere than it was even five years ago.

I'll wrap this post up by saying I still feel like this is Matt Brandau's award to lose with a huge asterisk; he needs his team to perform in both the Ivy and NCAA tournaments, but if they do, he will win the award no doubt. Others can possibly catch him if their own team excels while Yale falters, especially Shellenberger who I still maintain is the best single talent in the game today. His '24 #'s are not Brandau's but he has an opening (as do to a lesser extent Kirst, O'Neill, and Malone).

[lorin]

Beyond the individual awards, going to be interesting to see whose named 1st, 2nd, 3rd, AA on attack. However it turns out, likely to be the most talented 2nd team AA unit in memory.

2019 was pretty good

[coda]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

They will have 4 or 5 first team AA this year, they don't have the onions to leave O'Neil off first team.

I could see this happening too.. something like:

1st team: O'neill, Pkav, Shelly, and Brandau
2nd team: Kirst, Malone, M. Long, and prob Spallina

I’m a pkav guy and think he’s undoubtedly a 1st teamer but I just don’t see how they can leave Kirst off, guys a stud.

no matter what happens, someone deserving will be left off the list.

Imo stats matter when certain players have good ones.

I think stats are much more complex than that. People just want to look at pts per game. I mentioned Long vs Kirst earlier. Long actually has 1 pt more than Kirst. Based on most Tewaarton talk on stats, that means Long is more deserving than Kirst. If I give a possession the value of .3 goals (I used to use that number when coaching kids and talking about the value of Gbs, riding, and clearing) and factor in GBs, Turnovers, and CTOs that pts/game goes from 5.0 for Long and 4.92 for Kirst to 5.77 for Kirst and 5.33 for Long. I havent done the work to quantify that .3, but I think that reflects value better than simple pts per goals. (Just an aside, I think a CTO on the offensive end is definitely undervalued vs Gb using the method. You could also say a turnover on your offensive end is not equal to creating a turnover in your offensive end on the ride). I havent seen anyone adjusting offensive performance for defenses faced. Based on my model Kirst has played median defense around 10 and Brandau in the 20s. How much do you factor that into points/game for a player?
Maybe Lacrosse Reference can chime in with his thoughts.

[Laxguy703]

Beyond the individual awards, going to be interesting to see whose named 1st, 2nd, 3rd, AA on attack. However it turns out, likely to be the most talented 2nd team AA unit in memory.

2019 was pretty good

Wow I didn’t even realize how many good attackman their were that year… even the 3rd team and HM had names like Logan wisnauskas, Asher Nolting, Michael Kraus, Brendan Nichtern, Matt Moore, Jake Carraway, Tre Leclaire, and Ethan Walker. That is insane.

[Gobigred]

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat kav
3. Brandau
4. Malone
5. Kirst
34 for Duke has not earned my vote here. He should be 3rd team all American

They will have 4 or 5 first team AA this year, they don't have the onions to leave O'Neil off first team.

I could see this happening too.. something like:

1st team: O'neill, Pkav, Shelly, and Brandau
2nd team: Kirst, Malone, M. Long, and prob Spallina

I’m a pkav guy and think he’s undoubtedly a 1st teamer but I just don’t see how they can leave Kirst off, guys a stud.

no matter what happens, someone deserving will be left off the list.

Imo stats matter when certain players have good ones.

I think stats are much more complex than that. People just want to look at pts per game. I mentioned Long vs Kirst earlier. Long actually has 1 pt more than Kirst. Based on most Tewaarton talk on stats, that means Long is more deserving than Kirst. If I give a possession the value of .3 goals (I used to use that number when coaching kids and talking about the value of Gbs, riding, and clearing) and factor in GBs, Turnovers, and CTOs that pts/game goes from 5.0 for Long and 4.92 for Kirst to 5.77 for Kirst and 5.33 for Long. I havent done the work to quantify that .3, but I think that reflects value better than simple pts per goals. (Just an aside, I think a CTO on the offensive end is definitely undervalued vs Gb using the method. You could also say a turnover on your offensive end is not equal to creating a turnover in your offensive end on the ride). I havent seen anyone adjusting offensive performance for defenses faced. Based on my model Kirst has played median defense around 10 and Brandau in the 20s. How much do you factor that into points/game for a player?
Maybe Lacrosse Reference can chime in with his thoughts.

A 2+ points per game difference (Brandau to Shellenberger) is much more significant than a one total point over twelve games difference (Long to Kirst). Let's be reasonable in making comparisons. Brandau has put up 40% more points per game than Shellenberger.

I do agree that caused turnovers in the offensive end are worth a lot. Kirst has 16 in 12 games, or 1.33 per game. If you look at the NCAA's stats for caused turnovers, the top 50 listed are all Ds, LSMs and one M. Numbers 49 and 50 on the list have 1.33 caused turnovers per game, the same as attackman Kirst.

[wgdsr]

POINTS PER GAME
Last updated Monday, April 22, 2024 8:14 am - Through games Sunday, April 21, 2024

1 Matt Brandau Yale 7.23

2 Sam King Harvard 5.75
3 TJ Malone Penn St. 5.55
4 Louis Perfetto Boston U. 5.31
5 Dalton Young Richmond 5.15
6 Shellenberger Virginia 5.08
7 Joey Spallina Syracuse 5.07
8 Michael Long Cornell 5.00
9 CJ Kirst Cornell 4.92
10 Pat Kavanagh Notre D 4.90

One thing to remember: Grant Ament had over 7 points per game in 2019 but got beaten out for the Tewaaraton by one of the all-time greats, Pat Spencer. If Yale doesn't make the NCAA's or is knocked out early (1st round or QF), and one of the very talented guys like Shelly, O'Neill, Kirst, or Malone carries his team to the finals or the championship, very likely the Memorial Day weekend star will get it.

Perhaps Brandau will take a leaf out of Ament's book and will win the Turnbull Award even if not the Tewey.

Or maybe the Enners, that has a better track record of identifying the outstanding player.

They've been very consistent. The differences were Pannell over Stanwick in 2011, Crowley over Crotty in 2010, Danowski over Laveille in 2008, Johnson over Rotelli in 2003

As in many things, the exceptions prove the rule.

Personally, that was one of the best individual stretches of lacrosse I've ever seen.
I'm talking about Steele Stanwick in his 2011 national championship season.
Stanwick is a high end all-timer.

yeah, and carried them for not one or 2, but 3 games in the nc$$. with 2 top threats out, and in the semis... 3 guys. as a 7 seed.
was wild.