Tewaaraton Award 2024

[BigTurn]

Weird. After watching what I thought was the BEST defensive game I've seen a team play , this year, when they held DUKE to FOUR, that someone would tell me Cornell will hang 18 on that same team, I would have looked at them like they had 4 heads.

I know Cornells offense and attack is one of the best on the country, but that's DUKE being held to FOUR.

Crazy year, and it's sure to get crazier.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

as a whole, Duke midfield < Cornell Midfield. And Cornell Attack > Duke Attack.

I would not go that far. Duke Attack > Cornell Attack. I think Duke is still trying to figure out what there are on offense and how to get the pieces together. Its the team you want to play in the tournament, if you are someone like Bryant. It also the team you dont want to see if you are are someone like ND or UVa, because they are very capable of putting it together at any point.

I know things change from week to week and even game to game this season, but I have a hard time understanding how you can make that claim with such assurance when Cornell's attack just put up 18 points vs Syracuse and Duke's attack put up 4 points against the same team 10 days ago. And Cornell's midfield put up 11 points vs Duke midfield's donut vs Syracuse. From reading your posts, you spend quite a bit of time on comparisons for rankings and tourney bids, so this is somewhat surprising coming from you. Duke has a big edge vs Cornell at FO and G (and defense), and you are likely right that a team would more likely face Cornell than Duke in the tournament as of today, but that's not because Duke has a perceived better attack and midfield.

Because Duke has a proven attack. 1 game does not change that. ONeill, Dyson, amd Zawaada is probably the most talented and proven attack in the county (as individual players). The coaches have not gotten everything out of them, but Cornell attack is not in the same league. I like Firth, he is going to be really good, but he wouldnt start at Duke. Neither would Goldstein.

You’re delusional if you don’t think Kirst and Long stack up against oneill and zawada. I’ll give you Dyson as a finisher over Goldstein, but Dyson rarely creates for himself whereas Goldstein often can.

To my eye, Cornell has the 2nd or 3rd best starting 6 behind ND/UVA.

Kirst certainly stacks up. Long would be a welcome addition at Duke. I do think he would likely play middie there. He seems very comfortable playing any where on the field.

Raw talent wise, you may be right that Duke wins. Cornell offense meshes far better in my opinion. They know their roles. The Duke offense just seems completely lost at times when Oneill isn’t dominating his matchup, and their mids cannot consistently generate slides. That said, Duke is notorious for finding their identity as we get into April/May, so let’s see if they can figure it out.

[coda]

Weird. After watching what I thought was the BEST defensive game I've seen a team play , this year, when they held DUKE to FOUR, that someone would tell me Cornell will hang 18 on that same team, I would have looked at them like they had 4 heads.

I know Cornells offense and attack is one of the best on the country, but that's DUKE being held to FOUR.

Crazy year, and it's sure to get crazier.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

as a whole, Duke midfield < Cornell Midfield. And Cornell Attack > Duke Attack.

I would not go that far. Duke Attack > Cornell Attack. I think Duke is still trying to figure out what there are on offense and how to get the pieces together. Its the team you want to play in the tournament, if you are someone like Bryant. It also the team you dont want to see if you are are someone like ND or UVa, because they are very capable of putting it together at any point.

I know things change from week to week and even game to game this season, but I have a hard time understanding how you can make that claim with such assurance when Cornell's attack just put up 18 points vs Syracuse and Duke's attack put up 4 points against the same team 10 days ago. And Cornell's midfield put up 11 points vs Duke midfield's donut vs Syracuse. From reading your posts, you spend quite a bit of time on comparisons for rankings and tourney bids, so this is somewhat surprising coming from you. Duke has a big edge vs Cornell at FO and G (and defense), and you are likely right that a team would more likely face Cornell than Duke in the tournament as of today, but that's not because Duke has a perceived better attack and midfield.

Because Duke has a proven attack. 1 game does not change that. ONeill, Dyson, amd Zawaada is probably the most talented and proven attack in the county (as individual players). The coaches have not gotten everything out of them, but Cornell attack is not in the same league. I like Firth, he is going to be really good, but he wouldnt start at Duke. Neither would Goldstein.

You’re delusional if you don’t think Kirst and Long stack up against oneill and zawada. I’ll give you Dyson as a finisher over Goldstein, but Dyson rarely creates for himself whereas Goldstein often can.

To my eye, Cornell has the 2nd or 3rd best starting 6 behind ND/UVA.

Kirst certainly stacks up. Long would be a welcome addition at Duke. I do think he would likely play middie there. He seems very comfortable playing any where on the field.

Raw talent wise, you may be right that Duke wins. Cornell offense meshes far better in my opinion. They know their roles. The Duke offense just seems completely lost at times when Oneill isn’t dominating his matchup, and their mids cannot consistently generate slides. That said, Duke is notorious for finding their identity as we get into April/May, so let’s see if they can figure it out.

That is basically what I said when this started

[BigTurn]

Weird. After watching what I thought was the BEST defensive game I've seen a team play , this year, when they held DUKE to FOUR, that someone would tell me Cornell will hang 18 on that same team, I would have looked at them like they had 4 heads.

I know Cornells offense and attack is one of the best on the country, but that's DUKE being held to FOUR.

Crazy year, and it's sure to get crazier.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

as a whole, Duke midfield < Cornell Midfield. And Cornell Attack > Duke Attack.

I would not go that far. Duke Attack > Cornell Attack. I think Duke is still trying to figure out what there are on offense and how to get the pieces together. Its the team you want to play in the tournament, if you are someone like Bryant. It also the team you dont want to see if you are are someone like ND or UVa, because they are very capable of putting it together at any point.

I know things change from week to week and even game to game this season, but I have a hard time understanding how you can make that claim with such assurance when Cornell's attack just put up 18 points vs Syracuse and Duke's attack put up 4 points against the same team 10 days ago. And Cornell's midfield put up 11 points vs Duke midfield's donut vs Syracuse. From reading your posts, you spend quite a bit of time on comparisons for rankings and tourney bids, so this is somewhat surprising coming from you. Duke has a big edge vs Cornell at FO and G (and defense), and you are likely right that a team would more likely face Cornell than Duke in the tournament as of today, but that's not because Duke has a perceived better attack and midfield.

Because Duke has a proven attack. 1 game does not change that. ONeill, Dyson, amd Zawaada is probably the most talented and proven attack in the county (as individual players). The coaches have not gotten everything out of them, but Cornell attack is not in the same league. I like Firth, he is going to be really good, but he wouldnt start at Duke. Neither would Goldstein.

You’re delusional if you don’t think Kirst and Long stack up against oneill and zawada. I’ll give you Dyson as a finisher over Goldstein, but Dyson rarely creates for himself whereas Goldstein often can.

To my eye, Cornell has the 2nd or 3rd best starting 6 behind ND/UVA.

Kirst certainly stacks up. Long would be a welcome addition at Duke. I do think he would likely play middie there. He seems very comfortable playing any where on the field.

Raw talent wise, you may be right that Duke wins. Cornell offense meshes far better in my opinion. They know their roles. The Duke offense just seems completely lost at times when Oneill isn’t dominating his matchup, and their mids cannot consistently generate slides. That said, Duke is notorious for finding their identity as we get into April/May, so let’s see if they can figure it out.

That is basically what I said when this started

lol hand up, I did not read more than one or posts back in that thread and responded to your one post, that’s on me. My sticking point was I think the talent disparity between Cornell attack v Duke attack is razor thin. But think we largely agree

[coda]

Weird. After watching what I thought was the BEST defensive game I've seen a team play , this year, when they held DUKE to FOUR, that someone would tell me Cornell will hang 18 on that same team, I would have looked at them like they had 4 heads.

I know Cornells offense and attack is one of the best on the country, but that's DUKE being held to FOUR.

Crazy year, and it's sure to get crazier.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

as a whole, Duke midfield < Cornell Midfield. And Cornell Attack > Duke Attack.

I would not go that far. Duke Attack > Cornell Attack. I think Duke is still trying to figure out what there are on offense and how to get the pieces together. Its the team you want to play in the tournament, if you are someone like Bryant. It also the team you dont want to see if you are are someone like ND or UVa, because they are very capable of putting it together at any point.

I know things change from week to week and even game to game this season, but I have a hard time understanding how you can make that claim with such assurance when Cornell's attack just put up 18 points vs Syracuse and Duke's attack put up 4 points against the same team 10 days ago. And Cornell's midfield put up 11 points vs Duke midfield's donut vs Syracuse. From reading your posts, you spend quite a bit of time on comparisons for rankings and tourney bids, so this is somewhat surprising coming from you. Duke has a big edge vs Cornell at FO and G (and defense), and you are likely right that a team would more likely face Cornell than Duke in the tournament as of today, but that's not because Duke has a perceived better attack and midfield.

Because Duke has a proven attack. 1 game does not change that. ONeill, Dyson, amd Zawaada is probably the most talented and proven attack in the county (as individual players). The coaches have not gotten everything out of them, but Cornell attack is not in the same league. I like Firth, he is going to be really good, but he wouldnt start at Duke. Neither would Goldstein.

You’re delusional if you don’t think Kirst and Long stack up against oneill and zawada. I’ll give you Dyson as a finisher over Goldstein, but Dyson rarely creates for himself whereas Goldstein often can.

To my eye, Cornell has the 2nd or 3rd best starting 6 behind ND/UVA.

Kirst certainly stacks up. Long would be a welcome addition at Duke. I do think he would likely play middie there. He seems very comfortable playing any where on the field.

Raw talent wise, you may be right that Duke wins. Cornell offense meshes far better in my opinion. They know their roles. The Duke offense just seems completely lost at times when Oneill isn’t dominating his matchup, and their mids cannot consistently generate slides. That said, Duke is notorious for finding their identity as we get into April/May, so let’s see if they can figure it out.

That is basically what I said when this started

lol hand up, I did not read more than one or posts back in that thread and responded to your one post, that’s on me. My sticking point was I think the talent disparity between Cornell attack v Duke attack is razor thin. But think we largely agree

I think if we did a draft of attackmen in the NCAA to build a 1 year team, Duke's attack would be the first unit to have all 3 taken. I still contend their biggest issue is asking ONeill to run the offense. He is a great player, but I think his role is better when asked to be the primary scorer not the QB. For the record I would take Kirst over ONeill, because finding a true QB is much harder than finding a scorer.

[Finster]

Weird. After watching what I thought was the BEST defensive game I've seen a team play , this year, when they held DUKE to FOUR, that someone would tell me Cornell will hang 18 on that same team, I would have looked at them like they had 4 heads.

I know Cornells offense and attack is one of the best on the country, but that's DUKE being held to FOUR.

Crazy year, and it's sure to get crazier.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Each weekend I laugh at the thought of you assembling the Top 20. It’s become very difficult. This game will have to make you ponder really hard where to put Syracuse. Penn State held you to 9, Penn held Cornell to 10. We ‘held’ the Big Red to 18.

We only have two more regular season games to prove ourselves, and so I don’t know the impact of this one. I don’t envy you.

Brutal! Alot will obviously depend on this upcoming weekends results (which I'm sure will be crazy).

Some of the toughest teams to slot right now are :

Cornell
Duke
Army
Syracuse
Maryland

Gobigred
Joewillie78

We’re going to accept our punishment like men. Wherever you place us next, we’ll accept it.

[joewillie78]

Thanks Fin ,

These teams where their margin of error has been so small is brutal.

People mention that teams like Syracuse and Cornell are 2 or 3 goals, or 2 or 3 OT wins or losses from being like 10-1 or 6-5, when probably in reality, as my favorite coach, Mr. Parcells, said " you are what your record is".

We all know that like many other teams, Syracuse, Cornell etc can beat anyone in D1, and can also lose to any D1 team.

Like I said in another thread, I'm not sure the best team won Tuesday night but I do believe the guttiest team won, and how that affects my eye test to rank them , will depend alot on what happens this weekend.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

[lorin]

Thanks Fin ,

These teams where their margin of error has been so small is brutal.

People mention that teams like Syracuse and Cornell are 2 or 3 goals, or 2 or 3 OT wins or losses from being like 10-1 or 6-5, when probably in reality, as my favorite coach, Mr. Parcells, said " you are what your record is".

We all know that like many other teams, Syracuse, Cornell etc can beat anyone in D1, and can also lose to any D1 team.

Like I said in another thread, I'm not sure the best team won Tuesday night but I do believe the guttiest team won, and how that affects my eye test to rank them , will depend alot on what happens this weekend.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Getting back to the award IL had a piece today and still have ONeil in the mix , do stats count or is it who the media thinks should win the award.
He is again great player I am just think they use the generational talent a little much,

PPG rank 15th
GPG 10th
APG 42nd

Not hating on him just saying this year right now more kids are deserving.

[oldbartman]

Thanks Fin ,

These teams where their margin of error has been so small is brutal.

People mention that teams like Syracuse and Cornell are 2 or 3 goals, or 2 or 3 OT wins or losses from being like 10-1 or 6-5, when probably in reality, as my favorite coach, Mr. Parcells, said " you are what your record is".

We all know that like many other teams, Syracuse, Cornell etc can beat anyone in D1, and can also lose to any D1 team.

Like I said in another thread, I'm not sure the best team won Tuesday night but I do believe the guttiest team won, and how that affects my eye test to rank them , will depend alot on what happens this weekend.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Getting back to the award IL had a piece today and still have ONeil in the mix , do stats count or is it who the media thinks should win the award.
He is again great player I am just think they use the generational talent a little much,

PPG rank 15th
GPG 10th
APG 42nd

Not hating on him just saying this year right now more kids are deserving.

Adding Zawada has taken away from the reliance on O'Neill and that's a good think for Duke's offense. I would think at this point in his career winning the NC is all he really should care about. Tewaaraton winner, check. World Champion, check. World Championship MVP, check. So I doubt he is focused on personal points #s. Getting the elusive D I NC is the one thing he doesn't have at this point in his life. Sunday should be fun.

[lorin]

Thanks Fin ,

These teams where their margin of error has been so small is brutal.

People mention that teams like Syracuse and Cornell are 2 or 3 goals, or 2 or 3 OT wins or losses from being like 10-1 or 6-5, when probably in reality, as my favorite coach, Mr. Parcells, said " you are what your record is".

We all know that like many other teams, Syracuse, Cornell etc can beat anyone in D1, and can also lose to any D1 team.

Like I said in another thread, I'm not sure the best team won Tuesday night but I do believe the guttiest team won, and how that affects my eye test to rank them , will depend alot on what happens this weekend.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Getting back to the award IL had a piece today and still have ONeil in the mix , do stats count or is it who the media thinks should win the award.
He is again great player I am just think they use the generational talent a little much,

PPG rank 15th
GPG 10th
APG 42nd

Not hating on him just saying this year right now more kids are deserving.

Adding Zawada has taken away from the reliance on O'Neill and that's a good think for Duke's offense. I would think at this point in his career winning the NC is all he really should care about. Tewaaraton winner, check. World Champion, check. World Championship MVP, check. So I doubt he is focused on personal points #s. Getting the elusive D I NC is the one thing he doesn't have at this point in his life. Sunday should be fun.

Come on man he should have 3 or 4 or 4 and 3 every game with the talent around him. Also Zawada still not proven in big games, World Champion MVP is a joke, only 2 teams had a chance to win that. Again just fighting for other kids to get noticed The 2 BU kids both over 2 hundred career points and my guess more PPG then O’Neil for career.

[molo]

Frankly I’m leaning towards the Albany pole, but I know he won’t get it. With conference play heating up and the NCAAT on the horizon, Kirst, Kavanagh, O’Neill, and Shellenberger will have plenty of chances to stake their claim. T will go to the one if those four who leads his team farthest in May. My dark horse candidate would be the goalie. I think we’ll see a goalie win it before a defenseman, and the current number one team features an excellent goalie.

[oldbartman]

Thanks Fin ,

These teams where their margin of error has been so small is brutal.

People mention that teams like Syracuse and Cornell are 2 or 3 goals, or 2 or 3 OT wins or losses from being like 10-1 or 6-5, when probably in reality, as my favorite coach, Mr. Parcells, said " you are what your record is".

We all know that like many other teams, Syracuse, Cornell etc can beat anyone in D1, and can also lose to any D1 team.

Like I said in another thread, I'm not sure the best team won Tuesday night but I do believe the guttiest team won, and how that affects my eye test to rank them , will depend alot on what happens this weekend.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Getting back to the award IL had a piece today and still have ONeil in the mix , do stats count or is it who the media thinks should win the award.
He is again great player I am just think they use the generational talent a little much,

PPG rank 15th
GPG 10th
APG 42nd

Not hating on him just saying this year right now more kids are deserving.

Adding Zawada has taken away from the reliance on O'Neill and that's a good think for Duke's offense. I would think at this point in his career winning the NC is all he really should care about. Tewaaraton winner, check. World Champion, check. World Championship MVP, check. So I doubt he is focused on personal points #s. Getting the elusive D I NC is the one thing he doesn't have at this point in his life. Sunday should be fun.

Come on man he should have 3 or 4 or 4 and 3 every game with the talent around him. Also Zawada still not proven in big games, World Champion MVP is a joke, only 2 teams had a chance to win that. Again just fighting for other kids to get noticed The 2 BU kids both over 2 hundred career points and my guess more PPG then O’Neil for career.

You really think BU plays as tough a schedule as Duke for the past 4 seasons? Or that either of the 2 kids draw AA poles for almost every game of their careers? I am not saying O'Neill is the most deserving of the award at this point in the season. The point I'm trying to make is that award isn't his primary concern. There are 3-4 other players ahead of him in my view as of now. But I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the short list at the end of the season.

[wgdsr]

Frankly I’m leaning towards the Albany pole, but I know he won’t get it. With conference play heating up and the NCAAT on the horizon, Kirst, Kavanagh, O’Neill, and Shellenberger will have plenty of chances to stake their claim. T will go to the one if those four who leads his team farthest in May. My dark horse candidate would be the goalie. I think we’ll see a goalie win it before a defenseman, and the current number one team features an excellent goalie.

the tewaaraton has very often gone to a player who didn't lead his team farthest in may. including last year. it would be good one day for a goalie or d man to grab it.
.

[coda]

Frankly I’m leaning towards the Albany pole, but I know he won’t get it. With conference play heating up and the NCAAT on the horizon, Kirst, Kavanagh, O’Neill, and Shellenberger will have plenty of chances to stake their claim. T will go to the one if those four who leads his team farthest in May. My dark horse candidate would be the goalie. I think we’ll see a goalie win it before a defenseman, and the current number one team features an excellent goalie.

Pisano is great and I would be happy to see him win it. I’m don’t see a goalie having a chance this year. Sadly all the hype is going to Entemann, who is not having a great season. He is currently 25th in save percentage and not even top 50 in saves per game, it’s nice to play behind that defense. Mark is the other goalie getting pub and he is 16th in save percentage. Emmet Carroll is the only goalie above 60% this year and you rarely hear his name. Media can not even identify the goalie having the best season, so no chance they elevate a goalie to Twaaraton winner

[joewillie78]

OK, after this weekend's games, I have been doing top 10, but now down to top 5 as it's becoming more focused as follows:
1. Shellenberger
2. Brandau
3. Kavanaugh
4. Kirst
5. Degnon

Sorry, I know O'Neil is probably still the media favorite but I just can't put him above any of the 5 above. Please, Duke fans, no f-bombs at JW.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

[Finster]

OK, after this weekend's games, I have been doing top 10, but now down to top 5 as it's becoming more focused as follows:
1. Shellenberger
2. Brandau
3. Kavanaugh
4. Kirst
5. Degnon

Sorry, I know O'Neil is probably still the media favorite but I just can't put him above any of the 5 above. Please, Duke fans, no f-bombs at JW.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

This list is accurate. And agreed, O’Neil shouldn’t be in the top-5 at this stage.

One question: that’s Pat, not Chris, Kavanaugh? lol. Because I can make a plausible argument that Chris is more effective.

[joewillie78]

OK, after this weekend's games, I have been doing top 10, but now down to top 5 as it's becoming more focused as follows:
1. Shellenberger
2. Brandau
3. Kavanaugh
4. Kirst
5. Degnon

Sorry, I know O'Neil is probably still the media favorite but I just can't put him above any of the 5 above. Please, Duke fans, no f-bombs at JW.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

This list is accurate. And agreed, O’Neil shouldn’t be in the top-5 at this stage.

One question: that’s Pat, not Chris, Kavanaugh? lol. Because I can make a plausible argument that Chris is more effective.

I knew I was going to get that question. Lol. And I agree about Chris, but this is Pat's award to win.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

[random observer]

Don't know what Degnon is doing there. Good player but not even close to Tewaarton level. HM AA at best IMO.

[The Orfling]

OK, after this weekend's games, I have been doing top 10, but now down to top 5 as it's becoming more focused as follows:
1. Shellenberger
2. Brandau
3. Kavanaugh
4. Kirst
5. Degnon

Sorry, I know O'Neil is probably still the media favorite but I just can't put him above any of the 5 above. Please, Duke fans, no f-bombs at JW.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Good list. O'Neill's stats are down, as others have said, and I think the "Thompson bar to repeat" is pretty high so to do so he'd have to really turn it on between now and June and put up big numbers/lead Duke to a title. Will probably be a finalist even though there's a case at least at this point in time that he wouldn't be in the top 5. Brandau has such a quiet game (announcers will never go nuts over 100 mph shots) -- and Yale's chances of going deep in tournament are probably not great with tough defensive efficiency numbers -- that I think he'll top out at a well-deserved finalist spot. I agree it sort of feels like it's Shelley's or Pat Kav's to win; both seniors with amazing careers and great year for their teams; a lot will depend on the UVA v. ND matchups now and maybe on Memorial Day and how these guys do.

I could see Jake Piseno the pole getting into the top 5 like they put the great FOGOs (Baptiste, Ierlan) -- it's a nod to greatneess but probably no real chance to win what's functionally become an offensive award. I agree with the prior analysis on a goalie -- Entenmann is best known but it would be tricky for them to give it to him given where he is in some of the statistical rankings (#25 in save percentage currently). But we could see a goalie in the top 5. My list:

1. Shellenberger
2. Pat Kav
3. Matt Brandau
4. T.J. Malone/Kirst
5. O'Neill

Possible inclusions in final 5: Piseno; a goalie (not sure which); Kirst/TJ Malone (whichever doesn't make the top 5 -- for me, I rate them both above O'Neill but I think it would be surprising for a reigning Tewey winner who is not injured to not be a finalist).

[joewillie78]

Don't know what Degnon is doing there. Good player but not even close to Tewaarton level. HM AA at best IMO.

I have watched almost all the #3 team in the countries games, and they have been in so many close dogfights, and everytime it seems that they need a big goal to stop a run, or tie or go ahead in a game, they look to Degnon, and it's amazing to me how he always seems to come through.

I know many will agree with you, but in my opinion, he has earned a top 5 ranking , as the guy has been the epitomy of clutch for the Jay's.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

[random observer]

Don't know what Degnon is doing there. Good player but not even close to Tewaarton level. HM AA at best IMO.

I have watched almost all the #3 team in the countries games, and they have been in so many close dogfights, and everytime it seems that they need a big goal to stop a run, or tie or go ahead in a game, they look to Degnon, and it's amazing to me how he always seems to come through.

I know many will agree with you, but in my opinion, he has earned a top 5 ranking , as the guy has been the epitomy of clutch for the Jay's.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

He's not the leading scorer nor the qb of the team (that's Angelus), and he's not even the guy they draw plays up for in crunch time (that's Collison). He's a very good player but he's really just a spot up shooter, which is an important part of an elite offense, but a complementary piece.

I like Degnon a lot, but this is the award for the best player in college lacrosse: if we had a draft to fill out 20 teams from all the players in D1, he's not getting picked for several rounds. No one is taking him over King, Malone, O'Neill, Long, Cormier, etc...