Possible face-off changes

[kramerica.inc]

Quint should give us all a gift and remove himself from telecasts.

I'm really holding out hope for that Non-preppy lax tie.

Funny coming from Quint.

He's still trying to live-down being the guy who "raided the Boys Latin lost and found."

[cmbtp88]

Sources tell me Tambroni is pushing this, funny when Arceri was all big ten he had no problem with face offs. The rule committee is a bunch of self-serving frauds.

If it's really Tambroni, then Marr is his mouthpiece because Marr is the one who spoke up.

Regardless, as someone else pointed out a few days ago - this has to go through PROP first. The rules committee did not come up with this suggestion (as early posters said); it's from the coaches.

Thank you Doxology...any rule change that gets discussed happens for one reason: multiple coaches AND officials have recommended the change. I say keep the clamp, but only if done with the front of the stick. It's awful when the fogo comes out with the ball and then tries to throw with a mangled stick with the ball on the "wrong" side of the head. Best change would be to revert to late 70's early 80's before the pinched heads were allowed...

They haven't been able to exit with the ball in the back of their sticks for 4 years now.....the ball has to come out in the air or on the ground after the clamp.....

[FMUBart]

I watch a lot of lacrosse, you stated "after the clamp", the "clamp" is the problem, imho..

[kramerica.inc]

I watch a lot of lacrosse, you stated "after the clamp", the "clamp" is the problem, imho..

Out of curiosity. What do you feel is wrong with the clamp?

I assume you just mean prolonged clamps and tie ups are your concern, not the quick-hitting pinch and pops, and clamp-and-outs?

If you have a problem with all clamps, do you support a ban on raking the ball (rake scoops) as well?

Same exact motion/action. As a youth coach, it would be great to be able to tell a kid to stop raking the ball because it's illegal now.

Sounds like you just don't like a good faceoff battle. I love a good faceoff tie-up. Fun to watch the guys wrestle and move through their progressions.

[FMUBart]

I played in the 80's when the ball was placed "IN" the back of the fogo's sticks...the scrums were legendary as the two would go round-n-round with the ball in between the back of their sticks. The ball on the ground solved the aforementioned stalemates, but the "pinch-n-pop" came into play as the stick design changed. I believe the rule book DOES state that a player cannot clamp the ball(other than the goalie) anywhere on the field other than the rake motion you described--"one continuous motion". It's just hard to believe such an integral part of the game is decided by the back of the stick Disallowing the clamp would cause the fogo's to create a true gb off the draw.

[cmbtp88]

I played in the 80's when the ball was placed "IN" the back of the fogo's sticks...the scrums were legendary as the two would go round-n-round with the ball in between the back of their sticks. The ball on the ground solved the aforementioned stalemates, but the "pinch-n-pop" came into play as the stick design changed. I believe the rule book DOES state that a player cannot clamp the ball(other than the goalie) anywhere on the field other than the rake motion you described--"one continuous motion". It's just hard to believe such an integral part of the game is decided by the back of the stick Disallowing the clamp would cause the fogo's to create a true gb off the draw.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Currently even if you are able to win a clamp, the ball has to immediately come out as a groundball or in the air(out of the stick). you can't keep it clamped for any period of time, it has to come out...not sure how the back of the stick is causing any difference. It used to when you could exit with the ball in the back of your stick...but you cant do that any longer....so not sure how a pinched stick or unpinched stick will change anything.....many of the top FO guys now manage to clamp/rake the ball out to a place where they themselves can pick the ball up....is that what you don't like...are you saying the FO guy himself shouldn't be able to win the groundball they create off the FO? Maybe make it so possession off the FO has to be first won by one of the wings? is that what you are saying? Look I know a lot about this only because my kid is a high level D1 lacrosse FO kid.. I am not a lacrosse guy., never played it...I just wonder what really they don't like about the current rules. Right now you hardly ever see a FO that is tied up on the whistle with the FO guys going around in a circle to win it...98% of FO are won quickly on the whistle and comes out through a rake or clamp immediately......I just don't know how they could change what they have now to make it any better...without removing the FO from the game...which I hope doesn't happen.....I think contested groundballs in any game are great for the game...we will see...I think what the coaches don't like about the current FO is its hard to coach the position and recruit for it...that shouldn't be a reason to change the current rules....it should mean you have to learn how to coach it and recruit it...FO has to be the most under coached position on the field...

[wgdsr]

I played in the 80's when the ball was placed "IN" the back of the fogo's sticks...the scrums were legendary as the two would go round-n-round with the ball in between the back of their sticks. The ball on the ground solved the aforementioned stalemates, but the "pinch-n-pop" came into play as the stick design changed. I believe the rule book DOES state that a player cannot clamp the ball(other than the goalie) anywhere on the field other than the rake motion you described--"one continuous motion". It's just hard to believe such an integral part of the game is decided by the back of the stick Disallowing the clamp would cause the fogo's to create a true gb off the draw.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Currently even if you are able to win a clamp, the ball has to immediately come out as a groundball or in the air(out of the stick). you can't keep it clamped for any period of time, it has to come out...not sure how the back of the stick is causing any difference. It used to when you could exit with the ball in the back of your stick...but you cant do that any longer....so not sure how a pinched stick or unpinched stick will change anything.....many of the top FO guys now manage to clamp/rake the ball out to a place where they themselves can pick the ball up....is that what you don't like...are you saying the FO guy himself shouldn't be able to win the groundball they create off the FO? Maybe make it so possession off the FO has to be first won by one of the wings? is that what you are saying? Look I know a lot about this only because my kid is a high level D1 lacrosse FO kid.. I am not a lacrosse guy., never played it...I just wonder what really they don't like about the current rules. Right now you hardly ever see a FO that is tied up on the whistle with the FO guys going around in a circle to win it...98% of FO are won quickly on the whistle and comes out through a rake or clamp immediately......I just don't know how they could change what they have now to make it any better...without removing the FO from the game...which I hope doesn't happen.....I think contested groundballs in any game are great for the game...we will see...I think what the coaches don't like about the current FO is its hard to coach the position and recruit for it...that shouldn't be a reason to change the current rules....it should mean you have to learn how to coach it and recruit it...FO has to be the most under coached position on the field...

it is the most undercoached element of the game. and coaches don't like it because all of them have lost a game, maybe that ended or helped end their season, and they figure "if only" my other coaching wasn't waylaid by faceoffs. so they want a 50/50 split that is written in the rules precisely so there isn't a 50/50 split just because someone scored, ending the play.

so this one looks like they want to be able to clamp the ball anywhere on the field at any time... other than the faceoff. be interesting to see how they word this one. what's a clamp, and when is it illegal?

[FMUBart]

I played in the 80's when the ball was placed "IN" the back of the fogo's sticks...the scrums were legendary as the two would go round-n-round with the ball in between the back of their sticks. The ball on the ground solved the aforementioned stalemates, but the "pinch-n-pop" came into play as the stick design changed. I believe the rule book DOES state that a player cannot clamp the ball(other than the goalie) anywhere on the field other than the rake motion you described--"one continuous motion". It's just hard to believe such an integral part of the game is decided by the back of the stick Disallowing the clamp would cause the fogo's to create a true gb off the draw.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Currently even if you are able to win a clamp, the ball has to immediately come out as a groundball or in the air(out of the stick). you can't keep it clamped for any period of time, it has to come out...not sure how the back of the stick is causing any difference. It used to when you could exit with the ball in the back of your stick...but you cant do that any longer....so not sure how a pinched stick or unpinched stick will change anything.....many of the top FO guys now manage to clamp/rake the ball out to a place where they themselves can pick the ball up....is that what you don't like...are you saying the FO guy himself shouldn't be able to win the groundball they create off the FO? Maybe make it so possession off the FO has to be first won by one of the wings? is that what you are saying? Look I know a lot about this only because my kid is a high level D1 lacrosse FO kid.. I am not a lacrosse guy., never played it...I just wonder what really they don't like about the current rules. Right now you hardly ever see a FO that is tied up on the whistle with the FO guys going around in a circle to win it...98% of FO are won quickly on the whistle and comes out through a rake or clamp immediately......I just don't know how they could change what they have now to make it any better...without removing the FO from the game...which I hope doesn't happen.....I think contested groundballs in any game are great for the game...we will see...I think what the coaches don't like about the current FO is its hard to coach the position and recruit for it...that shouldn't be a reason to change the current rules....it should mean you have to learn how to coach it and recruit it...FO has to be the most under coached position on the field...

Let me clear it up for you: the "pinch and pop" wasn't a "thing" back in the 80's--stick design changed in the later half of the 80's. The ability to pinch the ball off a faceoff should not be allowed..I'm fine with a clamp and immediate rake--it's the ball being pinched in the back of the stick that's ridiculous. It should be immediately called "withholding" and ball awarded to opposing team, imho..

[cmbtp88]

I played in the 80's when the ball was placed "IN" the back of the fogo's sticks...the scrums were legendary as the two would go round-n-round with the ball in between the back of their sticks. The ball on the ground solved the aforementioned stalemates, but the "pinch-n-pop" came into play as the stick design changed. I believe the rule book DOES state that a player cannot clamp the ball(other than the goalie) anywhere on the field other than the rake motion you described--"one continuous motion". It's just hard to believe such an integral part of the game is decided by the back of the stick Disallowing the clamp would cause the fogo's to create a true gb off the draw.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Currently even if you are able to win a clamp, the ball has to immediately come out as a groundball or in the air(out of the stick). you can't keep it clamped for any period of time, it has to come out...not sure how the back of the stick is causing any difference. It used to when you could exit with the ball in the back of your stick...but you cant do that any longer....so not sure how a pinched stick or unpinched stick will change anything.....many of the top FO guys now manage to clamp/rake the ball out to a place where they themselves can pick the ball up....is that what you don't like...are you saying the FO guy himself shouldn't be able to win the groundball they create off the FO? Maybe make it so possession off the FO has to be first won by one of the wings? is that what you are saying? Look I know a lot about this only because my kid is a high level D1 lacrosse FO kid.. I am not a lacrosse guy., never played it...I just wonder what really they don't like about the current rules. Right now you hardly ever see a FO that is tied up on the whistle with the FO guys going around in a circle to win it...98% of FO are won quickly on the whistle and comes out through a rake or clamp immediately......I just don't know how they could change what they have now to make it any better...without removing the FO from the game...which I hope doesn't happen.....I think contested groundballs in any game are great for the game...we will see...I think what the coaches don't like about the current FO is its hard to coach the position and recruit for it...that shouldn't be a reason to change the current rules....it should mean you have to learn how to coach it and recruit it...FO has to be the most under coached position on the field...

Let me clear it up for you: the "pinch and pop" wasn't a "thing" back in the 80's--stick design changed in the later half of the 80's. The ability to pinch the ball off a faceoff should not be allowed..I'm fine with a clamp and immediate rake--it's the ball being pinched in the back of the stick that's ridiculous. It should be immediately called "withholding" and ball awarded to opposing team, imho..

hmmmm....ok...i hear you, this is the NCAA rule....:

A.R. 26. A1 pinches the ball in the back of the crosse and (1) immediately
flips the ball into the front of the crosse; (2) immediately flips the ball
onto the ground and/or directs the ball to a teammate; or (3) takes more than
one step away from the center line and flips the ball into the front of the
crosse. RULING: In (1) and (2), these are legal plays. In (3), this is a faceoff
violation for withholding. Award the ball to Team B.

as it currently stands, on a clamp/pinch of the ball on FO you cannot "withhold the ball for any period of time" or it is a witholding violation. So, the FO guy has to in "one motion" clamp/pinch and move the ball out on the ground or in the air, or flip the ball into the front of his crosse within one step of the center line. Those rules were put in place in 2020...so pinch and pop is really not what it was prior to 2020 where you could exit with the ball in the back of your crosse.

I guess you don't like (1)" immediately flips the ball into the front of the crosse;" being legal? I guess i can see that, but honestly if they are trying to keep one FO guy being dominant this isn't really going to change much, in my opinion, as virtually all of the clamps/pinches now are moved on the ground to an area where the FO guy or his wings can try to win the ground ball. It is very difficult to transition the ball from the back of your stick to the front of your stick while having the opposing FO guy on top of you within one step of centerline, that is why they almost always move the ball out on the ground where they know where its going.....they could make it illegal to flip the ball to the front of the crosse at all, but like i said i don't think it changes much... this is a fun conversation though, especially given the season is only a few weeks away

[wgdsr]

as opposed to admitting the 32 second rule was a mistake, and simply rolling it back to say, 42..... rabil is now banning the longpole. in the pll. where everything goes.

be prepared for more banning at the faceoff x. it has most obviously had a target on its back for a long time.

[laxpert]

The NBA eliminated the center jump ball after every made basket in 1938. I've attended' off season tournaments with faceoffs only at the start of the game and halftime, it makes for a faster paced game Don't bring up 1979, I played in 1979 an era of unlimited long poles and horn substitutions, its not 1979. Top teams clear the ball at over 90 percent and even lower ranked teams are successful better than 80 percent of the time.

I wonder the rules allowed officials to stop play after faceoff and do a stick check if it would help resolve the issue. just an arbitrary check once or twice a half. It is an unwritten rule that you don't ask for a stick check on a FOGO but most jam a softball in the throat the second they get off the field to get the stick back into compliance.

[wgdsr]

The NBA eliminated the center jump ball after every made basket in 1938. I've attended' off season tournaments with faceoffs only at the start of the game and halftime, it makes for a faster paced game Don't bring up 1979, I played in 1979 an era of unlimited long poles and horn substitutions, its not 1979. Top teams clear the ball at over 90 percent and even lower ranked teams are successful better than 80 percent of the time.

I wonder the rules allowed officials to stop play after faceoff and do a stick check if it would help resolve the issue. just an arbitrary check once or twice a half. It is an unwritten rule that you don't ask for a stick check on a FOGO but most jam a softball in the throat the second they get off the field to get the stick back into compliance.

well, if we can't bring up 1979 then don't bring up basketball? basketball has 8 timeouts for coaches. there is a mandatory 8 teevee timeouts. they call dozens and dozens of fouls and stop the clock. the ball goes out of bounds and everything stops to line up. they then run substitutions with a horn ad nauseum, before the ball can be put into play. every time they shoot free throws, it takes longer than a faceoff. it takes as long to have a 40 minute basketball game as a 60 minute lacrosse game. go on?

taking a break 20-30 times per game to reset, celebrate, bring some juice to the game is not a lot. it fits for the pace of the game and the few timeouts. hockey has about 55-60 faceoffs, fwiw. it will turn into a pickup game, like what you're watching in off season tournaments. the faceoff was put in for a reason. possession is important for this sport and it was meant to be earned.

*resolve the issue*. what is the issue is the question. what it looks like is the issue is some college coaches, at this one moment in time, don't like that they lose faceoffs. and that their otherwise genius coaching can be usurped. and yet very little is done to coach the 3 man faceoff. imo. it was never meant to be 50/50, by design. so because some coaches in 2024 or 2027 don't like faceoffs, they get to forge a path to monumentally impact the game's essence. it's b.s. and it's obvious whatever they've been attempting to do with their rule writing the last decade plus... hasn't worked. to their satisfaction, anyway.

[MDralphie]

Yeah! What he said! The game has never been more popular or exciting as it is now. Leave it alone

[Laxnation]

Yeah! What he said! The game has never been more popular or exciting as it is now. Leave it alone

Did you ever consider that all the rule changes over the last five years including previous faceoff rule changes have made the game as popular and exiting as it is now? Far too many games are decided by two players who probably couldn't play any other position and who generally have the worst stick skills on the team. Faceoffs should NOT be a game within a game and with these new changes, it would become more of a team faceoff. How could anyone think that is a bad thing.

[FOGO_Daze]

There is no problem, so stop messing with it. Rabil is a disaster for lacrosse. PLL is turning into a joke.

[wgdsr]

Yeah! What he said! The game has never been more popular or exciting as it is now. Leave it alone

Did you ever consider that all the rule changes over the last five years including previous faceoff rule changes have made the game as popular and exiting as it is now? Far too many games are decided by two players who probably couldn't play any other position and who generally have the worst stick skills on the team. Faceoffs should NOT be a game within a game and with these new changes, it would become more of a team faceoff. How could anyone think that is a bad thing.

you can't legislate coaches and players trying harder. so do you know whether the changes were tested out in the fall scrimmages, anywhere? is there a link to the results?

[Asleep@theswitch]

Yeah! What he said! The game has never been more popular or exciting as it is now. Leave it alone

Did you ever consider that all the rule changes over the last five years including previous faceoff rule changes have made the game as popular and exiting as it is now? Far too many games are decided by two players who probably couldn't play any other position and who generally have the worst stick skills on the team. Faceoffs should NOT be a game within a game and with these new changes, it would become more of a team faceoff. How could anyone think that is a bad thing.

“ Far too many games are decided by two players who probably couldn't play any other position and who generally have the worst stick skills on the team.”

By this logic, we should ban goalies too.

Faceoffs make a three goal game with a minute to go still interesting. Take away the faceoff and you take away some of the most exciting finishes in history. It is one of the most exciting elements of the sport. Losing Coaches and fans will whine “if we’d only won a faceoff”, but somehow forget the extra 5 turnovers, 2 dumb penalties, and 3 selfish hero shots that really cost them the game.

[cmbtp88]

Yeah! What he said! The game has never been more popular or exciting as it is now. Leave it alone

Did you ever consider that all the rule changes over the last five years including previous faceoff rule changes have made the game as popular and exiting as it is now? Far too many games are decided by two players who probably couldn't play any other position and who generally have the worst stick skills on the team. Faceoffs should NOT be a game within a game and with these new changes, it would become more of a team faceoff. How could anyone think that is a bad thing.

So what are we going to do with goalies, seeing that they " probably couldn't play any other position and who generally have the worst stick skills on the team." Should we get rid of them too? Games aren't decided by 2 faceoff guys, especially now. Name a team last year in the NCAA tournament that decided any game by their FO guy...????? It already is "more of a team faceoff". People need to understand the current FO rules as they exist right now before suggesting changes to make it different. The PLL rules are dumb, they allow the FO guy to go down on one knee, use whatever grip they want to yet they are trying to make FO less important. If they really wanted that in the PLL they would go to the NCAA rules for stance and grip, yet they don't. makes no sense.

[RumorMill]

as opposed to admitting the 32 second rule was a mistake, and simply rolling it back to say, 42..... rabil is now banning the longpole. in the pll. where everything goes.

be prepared for more banning at the faceoff x. it has most obviously had a target on its back for a long time.

I don’t like the fact they are banning long poles from the faceoff in the PLL, but I see this as more of a move to promote the Faceoff in the PLL.

We saw last season coaches leaving FO specialists off their roster and choosing to just go with a pole and open up that roster spot for another player… and having success. My guess is the FO guys started getting pretty scared and Rabil put this in place to make sure coaches have to roster a FO guy.

But who knows.

[Laxnation]

First of all, division one goalies have excellent stick skills and must be able to pass the ball on a dime. Secondly, goalies are the leaders of the defense and have to constantly communicate with there teammates. Goalies need the defense to play as a unit and do there job to have success. Goalies also have to handle extreme pressure and stay focused the entire game. Most goalies started playing goalie at a young age while Fogo's started taking faceoffs much later when they found out they were not good enough to play offense or defense. A game decided because one guy can clamp a ball better then another guy is pretty stupid when you think about it.