Notre Dame 2024

[nyjay]

The Kavanaughs are both undeniably talented, high effort players. They're also on the borderline of being dirty players. They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

But what makes me despise them isn't really them. It's that the ESPN announcers (notably Carc) are so busy ball gargling them with their "grit" and "toughness" and whatever. I mean even in the Championship game where Pat was hobbling around, they kept talking about him and his impact when...in reality, he was a non-entity. He probably shouldn't even have been playing. That game was all about all of ND coming to victory, not being rescued by the Kavanaughs...but Carc and team just kept beating that Kavanaugh drum.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

+1, very good take. Hype inevitably leads to a backlash. See Joey Spallina for another example. My take on the Kavs is the same as my take on Spallina - while a lot of the criticism may be unfair, it's not exactly unearned.

[BigTurn]

They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

I think these two lines sum up the entirety of the critique on here. I can very much relate to the 2nd with other programs.
However, to insinuate that they’re soft or soccer players like some on here is just laugh out loud funny.

[azim21]

They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

I think these two lines sum up the entirety of the critique on here. I can very much relate to the 2nd with other programs.
However, to insinuate that they’re soft or soccer players like some on here is just laugh out loud funny.

Yep I think they summed it up perfectly. It's a fair criticism for sure. It happens all too often in sports. Look at Deion Sanders and Colorado football, Caitlin Clark, Patrick Mahomes. The constant glazing can be annoying for sure and turn people off from them. But really the beef is with the media, not the players themselves.

[wgdsr]

They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

I think these two lines sum up the entirety of the critique on here. I can very much relate to the 2nd with other programs.
However, to insinuate that they’re soft or soccer players like some on here is just laugh out loud funny.

Yep I think they summed it up perfectly. It's a fair criticism for sure. It happens all too often in sports. Look at Deion Sanders and Colorado football, Caitlin Clark, Patrick Mahomes. The constant glazing can be annoying for sure and turn people off from them. But really the beef is with the media, not the players themselves.

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

[gymman1031]

Do you think any of the current ND players are LOCKS to be future members of the Lacrosse Hall of Fame?

[Suitcase]

Last time ND and Duke played prior to Sunday , brower delivered a brutal and intentional cheap
Shot to ckav face. That kind of play was really bad for lacrosse . Let’s ignore that one .

A current player on Cuse and member of team
Canada cheapshotted 51 in Ireland 2 summers ago. 8 months of concussion symptoms. Let’s ignore that one also.

Kavs get called for their fair share of penalties , and they draw some
As well. As a fan of theirs , I don’t love the announcers on TV gushing over them all game , especially when there are effort plays all over the field being made my both teams. But in no way does that diminish what they are doing on the field. Which currently, is just winning a ton of games
Against good teams.

[tech37]

Last time ND and Duke played prior to Sunday , brower delivered a brutal and intentional cheap
Shot to ckav face. That kind of play was really bad for lacrosse . Let’s ignore that one .

A current player on Cuse and member of team
Canada cheapshotted 51 in Ireland 2 summers ago. 8 months of concussion symptoms. Let’s ignore that one also.

Kavs get called for their fair share of penalties , and they draw some
As well. As a fan of theirs , I don’t love the announcers on TV gushing over them all game , especially when there are effort plays all over the field being made my both teams. But in no way does that diminish what they are doing on the field. Which currently, is just winning a ton of games
Against good teams.

Cheap shots beget cheap shots. You don't see other top attackmen having this problem...Shellenberger, Kirst, Brandau to name a few. Wonder why not?

[Mr3Putt]

The Kavanaughs are both undeniably talented, high effort players. They're also on the borderline of being dirty players. They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

But what makes me despise them isn't really them. It's that the ESPN announcers (notably Carc) are so busy ball gargling them with their "grit" and "toughness" and whatever. I mean even in the Championship game where Pat was hobbling around, they kept talking about him and his impact when...in reality, he was a non-entity. He probably shouldn't even have been playing. That game was all about all of ND coming to victory, not being rescued by the Kavanaughs...but Carc and team just kept beating that Kavanaugh drum.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

+1, very good take. Hype inevitably leads to a backlash. See Joey Spallina for another example. My take on the Kavs is the same as my take on Spallina - while a lot of the criticism may be unfair, it's not exactly unearned.

Spallina is not in the same wheelhouse as P Kavanaugh. P Kavanaugh right now is better than Oneil. He was not good @ SU, and he was like 2-12 vs ND yesterday.

[BigTurn]

The Kavanaughs are both undeniably talented, high effort players. They're also on the borderline of being dirty players. They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

But what makes me despise them isn't really them. It's that the ESPN announcers (notably Carc) are so busy ball gargling them with their "grit" and "toughness" and whatever. I mean even in the Championship game where Pat was hobbling around, they kept talking about him and his impact when...in reality, he was a non-entity. He probably shouldn't even have been playing. That game was all about all of ND coming to victory, not being rescued by the Kavanaughs...but Carc and team just kept beating that Kavanaugh drum.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

+1, very good take. Hype inevitably leads to a backlash. See Joey Spallina for another example. My take on the Kavs is the same as my take on Spallina - while a lot of the criticism may be unfair, it's not exactly unearned.

Spallina is not in the same wheelhouse as P Kavanaugh. P Kavanaugh right now is better than Oneil. He was not good @ SU, and he was like 2-12 vs ND yesterday.

Don’t think he was comparing skill, obviously P Kav is in a different galaxy there. It’s the fact that the media hypes spallina to the moon, and everyone gets sick of it so they go after spallina.

[PizzaSnake]

The Kavanaughs are both undeniably talented, high effort players. They're also on the borderline of being dirty players. They're exactly the kind of kids you'd love to have on your team and you'd hate having on other teams.

But what makes me despise them isn't really them. It's that the ESPN announcers (notably Carc) are so busy ball gargling them with their "grit" and "toughness" and whatever. I mean even in the Championship game where Pat was hobbling around, they kept talking about him and his impact when...in reality, he was a non-entity. He probably shouldn't even have been playing. That game was all about all of ND coming to victory, not being rescued by the Kavanaughs...but Carc and team just kept beating that Kavanaugh drum.

Again, not his fault, but the constant media about them makes me want to vomit.

LOL!! I mean that literally. Thanks for the laugh. Needed it today.

[BetweenTheLines]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

[wgdsr]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

apologies if i was unclear or you didn't see it. the whistle blows when kavanaugh gets up in gray's face. it was a play on situation.

[rasheed]

I cannot wait for April 27. That's all.

[BetweenTheLines]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

apologies if i was unclear or you didn't see it. the whistle blows when kavanaugh gets up in gray's face. it was a play on situation.

Whistle is after he gets up, but is still hunched over and before he gets in Gray's face. I suspect he just sold the "injury" or, from the official's angle, it looked like Gray was holding onto his stick.

[Finster]

I cannot wait for April 27. That's all.

You’re gonna need to get by Duke and Syracuse first

[wgdsr]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

apologies if i was unclear or you didn't see it. the whistle blows when kavanaugh gets up in gray's face. it was a play on situation.

Whistle is after he gets up, but is still hunched over and before he gets in Gray's face. I suspect he just sold the "injury" or, from the official's angle, it looked like Gray was holding onto his stick.

while i've never grabbed my helmet after getting a stick check there, beyond that reaction it didn't look to me like kavanaugh was selling an injury. the whistle sounded like as he had risen already to me, but going with yours:
- he was up/getting up. so there shouldn't have been a whistle for that?
- there wasn't any violation being called on duke, because they only called the one penalty. and would've been a continued slow whistle in that sole event, anyway. plus, as you say, he was holding his stick, and that's not even a violation/penalty.

but let's go ahead and say it was to "prevent possible further injury", as 90-100% of what happened was after the whistle. that was pretty animated, no? me, i've never seen anything even approaching that not get flagged, maybe save for the pll. that's called 100% of the time. even weirder, it was q1. set the tone and clean it up given it was fortunate things didn't get worse?

anyway, kavanaughs go at it 100 mph. their older brother did the same. and 51 quite obviously facilitates for his teammates to eat more, but in this game came out on a mission vs brower.

[azim21]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

apologies if i was unclear or you didn't see it. the whistle blows when kavanaugh gets up in gray's face. it was a play on situation.

Whistle is after he gets up, but is still hunched over and before he gets in Gray's face. I suspect he just sold the "injury" or, from the official's angle, it looked like Gray was holding onto his stick.

while i've never grabbed my helmet after getting a stick check there, beyond that reaction it didn't look to me like kavanaugh was selling an injury. the whistle sounded like as he had risen already to me, but going with yours:
- he was up/getting up. so there shouldn't have been a whistle for that?
- there wasn't any violation being called on duke, because they only called the one penalty. and would've been a continued slow whistle in that sole event, anyway. plus, as you say, he was holding his stick, and that's not even a violation/penalty.

but let's go ahead and say it was to "prevent possible further injury", as 90-100% of what happened was after the whistle. that was pretty animated, no? me, i've never seen anything even approaching that not get flagged, maybe save for the pll. that's called 100% of the time. even weirder, it was q1. set the tone and clean it up given it was fortunate things didn't get worse?

anyway, kavanaughs go at it 100 mph. their older brother did the same. and 51 quite obviously facilitates for his teammates to eat more, but in this game came out on a mission vs brower.

I'm not a certified ref so maybe I'm wrong here and you can argue the other way if you'd like, but since no punches were thrown and all that happened was some guys got in each others faces, I think it was a situation where they "offset" each other in a way and they just let it play on without going into a 5v4 situation and just did the regular 6v5 man-up.

Although I do recall Million for UVA getting flagged for something similar earlier in the year. Drawing a flag, getting up, talking smack, then also getting a flag himself so I can see why you could argue Pat Kav should've gotten flagged too. Chalk that up to one being a freshman in one of his first games (may have even been his first I can't remember who it was against) and the other being a 5th year Tewaaraton level player. Sometimes that offers you a little lead way in a very physical championship rematch. Hate that fact if you want, I can't really argue with you there. They flagged Chris Kav later in the game for talking so that may have also been their first "warning". All in all though seems like a silly thing to be hung up on.

[BetweenTheLines]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

apologies if i was unclear or you didn't see it. the whistle blows when kavanaugh gets up in gray's face. it was a play on situation.

Whistle is after he gets up, but is still hunched over and before he gets in Gray's face. I suspect he just sold the "injury" or, from the official's angle, it looked like Gray was holding onto his stick.

while i've never grabbed my helmet after getting a stick check there, beyond that reaction it didn't look to me like kavanaugh was selling an injury. the whistle sounded like as he had risen already to me, but going with yours:
- he was up/getting up. so there shouldn't have been a whistle for that?
- there wasn't any violation being called on duke, because they only called the one penalty. and would've been a continued slow whistle in that sole event, anyway. plus, as you say, he was holding his stick, and that's not even a violation/penalty.

but let's go ahead and say it was to "prevent possible further injury", as 90-100% of what happened was after the whistle. that was pretty animated, no? me, i've never seen anything even approaching that not get flagged, maybe save for the pll. that's called 100% of the time. even weirder, it was q1. set the tone and clean it up given it was fortunate things didn't get worse?

anyway, kavanaughs go at it 100 mph. their older brother did the same. and 51 quite obviously facilitates for his teammates to eat more, but in this game came out on a mission vs brower.

Probably my last comment on this one, but you've raised a bunch of different issues:

1. Not saying it is the best call, but just off the ground and still hunched doesn't seem so crazy for "prevent further injury."
2. There was a violation called on Duke. The only penalty called was a cross check, on Gray. Was it an egregious, violent cross check? No.
3. You say "stick check" like it was a slash, but if you slow down the video, Gray's top hand (or between his hands, the middle of his pole) gets Kavanagh in the head, when he's on the ground. That could be a cross-check or indirect contact to the head, but I don't know how often it's not called at all.

Agree with azim. Not like this was a pivotal moment in the game.

[wgdsr]

it's a lot of it, but not all of it. there's some questionable theatrics, which some may not have an unbiased take but they seem to crop up quite a bit.
they take their fair share of late swipes at goalies clearing for example. in an era where almost all of that stuff gets called, they've largely gotten a pass. another case on sunday... 4.30 in the 1st, 51 slips on a dodge vs a shorty. gray had attempted a poke and then a lift o/h? didn't slo mo it, maybe he clipped kavanaugh's helmet, or maybe his check had kavanaugh's own stick clip his helmet. either way, a flag goes up (ultimately called a crosscheck in the book? which it wasn't). anyway, gray then makes 2 checks to kav's stickhead, and the ball's dislodged. kavanaugh then gets up in fight stance, bumps helmet to helmet and a whistle stops everything. at least a brawl is averted. what's the next call that stopped the action? nothing.

does anyone have an explanation for why the whistle? didn't action rise to at least a conduct call? that sort of looking the other way isn't a unicorn, and likely encourages the nonsense in the future. but grit.

What's the confusion? You answered your own question.

Even if you disagree: clock stops when the ball hits the ground after the flag on Gray (that they called a cross-check).

apologies if i was unclear or you didn't see it. the whistle blows when kavanaugh gets up in gray's face. it was a play on situation.

Whistle is after he gets up, but is still hunched over and before he gets in Gray's face. I suspect he just sold the "injury" or, from the official's angle, it looked like Gray was holding onto his stick.

while i've never grabbed my helmet after getting a stick check there, beyond that reaction it didn't look to me like kavanaugh was selling an injury. the whistle sounded like as he had risen already to me, but going with yours:
- he was up/getting up. so there shouldn't have been a whistle for that?
- there wasn't any violation being called on duke, because they only called the one penalty. and would've been a continued slow whistle in that sole event, anyway. plus, as you say, he was holding his stick, and that's not even a violation/penalty.

but let's go ahead and say it was to "prevent possible further injury", as 90-100% of what happened was after the whistle. that was pretty animated, no? me, i've never seen anything even approaching that not get flagged, maybe save for the pll. that's called 100% of the time. even weirder, it was q1. set the tone and clean it up given it was fortunate things didn't get worse?

anyway, kavanaughs go at it 100 mph. their older brother did the same. and 51 quite obviously facilitates for his teammates to eat more, but in this game came out on a mission vs brower.

I'm not a certified ref so maybe I'm wrong here and you can argue the other way if you'd like, but since no punches were thrown and all that happened was some guys got in each others faces, I think it was a situation where they "offset" each other in a way and they just let it play on without going into a 5v4 situation and just did the regular 6v5 man-up.

Although I do recall Million for UVA getting flagged for something similar earlier in the year. Drawing a flag, getting up, talking smack, then also getting a flag himself so I can see why you could argue Pat Kav should've gotten flagged too. Chalk that up to one being a freshman in one of his first games (may have even been his first I can't remember who it was against) and the other being a 5th year Tewaaraton level player. Sometimes that offers you a little lead way in a very physical championship rematch. Hate that fact if you want, I can't really argue with you there. They flagged Chris Kav later in the game for talking so that may have also been their first "warning". All in all though seems like a silly thing to be hung up on.

i am not "hung up" on this one call. i brought it up as just the latest example of something.
i posted originally because a discussion was being had about the kavanaughs and what might be an issue with fans watching. a poster mentioned several items (including an impression of them being borderline dirty, which is not something i necessarily share), and that was cropped out by another poster.

you then said as a follow up "....But really the beef is with the media, not the players themselves"... so i came in to say that wasn't all of it. they play hard, but they also go a bit overboard at times. imo. and, they sèem to get a pass on that at a greater clip than most. i mean, that's it. i haven't seen 100% of their games, but those are my impressions. you can disagree. i brought up AN EXAMPLE as it was most recent, and the zapruder volley followed.

they can play. it'll be interesting to see how this season plays out, as usual.

[wgdsr]

faison.... damn.