Final Poll USA lacrosse Mag

[Superlite]

A majority of players on that team are reclass. As are most of the prep school teams. I am not judging good or bad. It just is. And most of the clubs that compete nationally reclass . That is why Youth now has age rules (but not high school).

[Laxxal22]

I'm not judging any of the schools positively or negatively. 90% of my posts are about the ISL which is loaded with reclass kids, and I do believe it benefits boys as much (if not more) socially and academically as it does athletically to take their time getting to college. I've just found the Lacrosse Magazine poll odd and a bit in denial for excluding West 1 schools outside of Brunswick.

[Superlite]

I wasn't trying to say that at all..Apologies if it came off that way..
When the poll seperated public and private it gave more school some exposure. That is a positive, if not a little bit more work.
I agree that Brunswick being "different" from other boarding schools is interesting..
And Catholic schools that have 1200+ boys are not "public" schools either (not all states separate them).

I'm not judging any of the schools positively or negatively. 90% of my posts are about the ISL which is loaded with reclass kids, and I do believe it benefits boys as much (if not more) socially and academically as it does athletically to take their time getting to college. I've just found the Lacrosse Magazine poll odd and a bit in denial for excluding West 1 schools outside of Brunswick.

[coda]

I'm not judging any of the schools positively or negatively. 90% of my posts are about the ISL which is loaded with reclass kids, and I do believe it benefits boys as much (if not more) socially and academically as it does athletically to take their time getting to college. I've just found the Lacrosse Magazine poll odd and a bit in denial for excluding West 1 schools outside of Brunswick.

One think people never spoke about was the affect of the COVID extra year. Holding back/Reclassing has plagued Lacrosse for awhile, but that put it in overdrive. There was trickle down affect in each class from there. That said I remember a story on M Kraus at Virginia (well before COVID). He was getting all kinds of hype as a freshman. Friend of mine that is heavily involved at UVa, said "He is a 20 year old, of course he does not look like a normal freshman"

[random observer]

I'm not judging any of the schools positively or negatively. 90% of my posts are about the ISL which is loaded with reclass kids, and I do believe it benefits boys as much (if not more) socially and academically as it does athletically to take their time getting to college. I've just found the Lacrosse Magazine poll odd and a bit in denial for excluding West 1 schools outside of Brunswick.

One think people never spoke about was the affect of the COVID extra year. Holding back/Reclassing has plagued Lacrosse for awhile, but that put it in overdrive. There was trickle down affect in each class from there. That said I remember a story on M Kraus at Virginia (well before COVID). He was getting all kinds of hype as a freshman. Friend of mine that is heavily involved at UVa, said "He is a 20 year old, of course he does not look like a normal freshman"

In defense of Kraus, I think his PG year was more about UVA and Starsia's evaluation than a decision on his part to gain an edge. He wanted specifically to go to UVA (his dad and especially his uncle are UVA lax royalty), and I believe Starsia gave him an offer during his freshman year contingent on him doing a PG year. It was clear by the end of his sophomore season that he was going to be top tier recruit and that a PG year was unnecessary. But at that point the agreement was already in place, and both sides wanted each other so it just went along as planned. In a post-early recruiting world, my guess is Kraus probably goes to UVA without a PG year, but who knows.

Regardless, I really REALLY hate this practice of players who are good enough to be top tier recruits in their age class doing repeat years; it's just another example of money and privilege ruling this sport. Those who can afford it (whether it's the families paying themselves, or alumni paying for it to create all-star teams for their alma maters) can buy every advantage. It just seems weak to me when you have kids who are top tier players against their own age intentionally playing down with younger competition to get more of an edge. With each passing year I see more and more elite players at top tier public school programs in the tri-state area transferring to prep schools and repeating a year, and it just neuters the competitive landscape and shrinks the game.

[coda]

I'm not judging any of the schools positively or negatively. 90% of my posts are about the ISL which is loaded with reclass kids, and I do believe it benefits boys as much (if not more) socially and academically as it does athletically to take their time getting to college. I've just found the Lacrosse Magazine poll odd and a bit in denial for excluding West 1 schools outside of Brunswick.

One think people never spoke about was the affect of the COVID extra year. Holding back/Reclassing has plagued Lacrosse for awhile, but that put it in overdrive. There was trickle down affect in each class from there. That said I remember a story on M Kraus at Virginia (well before COVID). He was getting all kinds of hype as a freshman. Friend of mine that is heavily involved at UVa, said "He is a 20 year old, of course he does not look like a normal freshman"

In defense of Kraus, I think his PG year was more about UVA and Starsia's evaluation than a decision on his part to gain an edge. He wanted specifically to go to UVA (his dad and especially his uncle are UVA lax royalty), and I believe Starsia gave him an offer during his freshman year contingent on him doing a PG year. It was clear by the end of his sophomore season that he was going to be top tier recruit and that a PG year was unnecessary. But at that point the agreement was already in place, and both sides wanted each other so it just went along as planned. In a post-early recruiting world, my guess is Kraus probably goes to UVA without a PG year, but who knows.

Regardless, I really REALLY hate this practice of players who are good enough to be top tier recruits in their age class doing repeat years; it's just another example of money and privilege ruling this sport. Those who can afford it (whether it's the families paying themselves, or alumni paying for it to create all-star teams for their alma maters) can buy every advantage. It just seems weak to me when you have kids who are top tier players against their own age intentionally playing down with younger competition to get more of an edge. With each passing year I see more and more elite players at top tier public school programs in the tri-state area transferring to prep schools and repeating a year, and it just neuters the competitive landscape and shrinks the game.

I have seen a player re-class, because he wanted to be the #1 recruit. It just isnt stopping anytime soon. The re-class has become normal. The double-reclass doesnt even raise an eyebrow.

[Laxxal22]

Even the NEPSAC doesn't allow athletes who turn 19 before 9/1, so is the double reclass really a thing or is it like Bigfoot (many claims of sightings, not many verifications)? If so, what schools? Hill Academy? To double reclass and still not be 19 by the start of school means you probably were in the wrong class to begin with, especially with boys starting school later these days.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Inside lacrosse's June 7th rankings make a little more sense, but I'm not happy nonetheless:

1. Lawrenceville (N.J.), 19-1 | Previous: No. 1

2. St. Anthony's (N.Y.), 12-1 | Previous: No. 2

3. McDonogh (Md.), 17-1 | Previous: No. 3

4. Georgetown Prep (Md.), 16-2 | Previous: No. 4

5. Brunswick (Conn.), 13-4 | Previous: No. 5

6. Hill Academy (Ont.), 11-3 | Previous: No. 6

7. Culver (Ind.), 17-3 | Previous: No. 7

8. St. John's (D.C.), 15-3 | Previous: No. 8

9. Salisbury (Conn.), 12-4 | Previous: No. 9

10. Taft (Conn.), 15-2 | Previous: No. 10

11. Manhasset (N.Y.), 19-1 | Previous: No. 14

12. Malvern Prep (Pa.), 16-7 | Previous: No. 11

13. Haverford (Pa.), 17-3 | Previous: No. 12

14. Chaminade (N.Y.), 10-4 | Previous: No. 13

15. Calvert Hall (Md.), 11-6 | Previous: No. 15

16. Boys' Latin (Md.), 12-6 | Previous: No. 16

17. Seton Hall Prep (N.J.), 19-1 | Previous: No. 17

18. Noble & Greenough (Mass.), 17-4 | Previous: No. 18

19. Radnor (Pa.), 20-3 | Previous: No. 22

20. Shoreham-Wading River (N.Y.), 14-6 | Previous: No. 19

21. Mount Sinai (N.Y.), 17-1 | Previous: No. 20

22. Salesianum (Del.), 14-4 | Previous: No. 23

23. Holderness (N.H.), 17-0 | Previous: No. 24

24. Cheshire (Conn.), 15-3 | Previous: No. 25

25. Fairfield Prep (Conn.), 17-3 | Previous: NR

I've Underlined schools that I know are boarding schools and of course accept Post Grad kids, not just reclass kids. But as Laxxal22 pointed out, no kid who is 19 before September 1st can participate in team sports.

To be frank, this may also apply to the Bolded teams that are private or Catholic schools and reclass kids all the time. It looks like the top school this year that just shuffles kids through without re-classing and limiting itself to kids in one geographic footprint is #11 Manhasset.

That's discouraging.

What encourages me is that I can make a case that any of the top 15 could beat any of the top five on any given Sunday. The curve is pretty frickin' flat at this level. Sure, it's the top .005 (one half of one percent, did I get that right?) of the roughly 3000 teams that play HS boys lacrosse, but I'm impressed by how many elite squads are generated every year these days.

These kids at elite programs have been playing lax since the early part of elementary school, and by the end of middle school they've had more games and more practices than I had in a 10 year HS-through-PoCo playing window. Their coaches are better. Their equipment is better. The rules allow more fluidity of play.

The game these elite kids play is just sublime.

But there's only 5 Public teams in the top 25 and the best one is ranked at #11...

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

[random observer]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

[MA Lax Fan]

Double re-classes happen all the time. We have kids here in New England who re-class in middle school for the ISL (spend $500,000 to graduate) and then after they finish high school they go do PG year at in the NEWest. For what, I have no clue? They are athletically and academically already in the top 1%.

To me the elite prep teams are nothing more then glorified club teams.

I have all the respect for teams like Victor, Darien, etc… who build programs from the youth up and don’t have to go “buy a player” to round out the starting 10.

[kr522]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

[random observer]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

[LI13]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

One thing Suffolk could do to help the St Anthony's problem is restructure competition to ensure the top programs spend more time playing each other and less time blowing out less developed programs.

[Kismet]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

One thing Suffolk could do to help the St Anthony's problem is restructure competition to ensure the top programs spend more time playing each other and less time blowing out less developed programs.

I don't think the public schools in Suffolk (or in Nassau for that matter) are much interested in helping out St Anthony's or Chaminade especially given the fact that they tend to poach the best kids from those programs.

Remember not too long ago that the CHSAA filed a lawsuit against NYSPHSSAA to be included in state tournaments and lost

[Laxxal22]

Double re-classes happen all the time.

Again, the rules don't really align with your narrative. In the rare case of an actual double reclass the kid would have to be very/too young for his initial class by today's standards for this even to be feasible. You can be upset about reclass culture without having to over exaggerate the issue.

Some very insightful posts on this thread. I never thought I'd see the day where Baltimore schools need out of state players to keep up in lacrosse or top Fairfield County kids would go outside of West 1 for school.

[LI13]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

One thing Suffolk could do to help the St Anthony's problem is restructure competition to ensure the top programs spend more time playing each other and less time blowing out less developed programs.

I don't think the public schools in Suffolk (or in Nassau for that matter) are much interested in helping out St Anthony's or Chaminade especially given the fact that they tend to poach the best kids from those programs.

Remember not too long ago that the CHSAA filed a lawsuit against NYSPHSSAA to be included in state tournaments and lost

I think you must have misread my post. I have no interest in helping St Anthony's. My post was about what Suffolk could do differently to help retain more talent at Section XI schools.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'd like to see more transparency across the board.
Birth months, prior programs, etc.

There are clear age limits, so I agree that the issue of 're-class' or PG is less than some may think, though it obviously is a factor when the bulk of players are already 18 by Sept 1 rather than just a couple per team.

And I wonder whether the out of state thing is as significant as some suggest.

But it may be...

In our digital age, this is far more feasible, but it would require leagues to require participation in reporting.

The resistance is obviously (IMO) a sense of embarrassment...

[Kismet]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

One thing Suffolk could do to help the St Anthony's problem is restructure competition to ensure the top programs spend more time playing each other and less time blowing out less developed programs.

I don't think the public schools in Suffolk (or in Nassau for that matter) are much interested in helping out St Anthony's or Chaminade especially given the fact that they tend to poach the best kids from those programs.

Remember not too long ago that the CHSAA filed a lawsuit against NYSPHSSAA to be included in state tournaments and lost

I think you must have misread my post. I have no interest in helping St Anthony's. My post was about what Suffolk could do differently to help retain more talent at Section XI schools.

OK. What did you have in mind?
Considering all of the eligibility rules apply to ALL sports and not just lacrosse.

[MDlaxfan76]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

One thing Suffolk could do to help the St Anthony's problem is restructure competition to ensure the top programs spend more time playing each other and less time blowing out less developed programs.

I don't think the public schools in Suffolk (or in Nassau for that matter) are much interested in helping out St Anthony's or Chaminade especially given the fact that they tend to poach the best kids from those programs.

Remember not too long ago that the CHSAA filed a lawsuit against NYSPHSSAA to be included in state tournaments and lost

I think you must have misread my post. I have no interest in helping St Anthony's. My post was about what Suffolk could do differently to help retain more talent at Section XI schools.

OK. What did you have in mind?
Considering all of the eligibility rules apply to ALL sports and not just lacrosse.

uhh ohh, I shouldn't butt in, but perhaps the comment goes to the notion that perhaps there could be tiers of schools, akin a bit to what the private schools in MIAA do. A, B, C. They are different by sport, but the notion is to have actually comparable match-ups, so that the competition is challenging no matter what level. Very few blowouts.

Else, parents and players may prefer to jump from Suffolk to a private program...to get that tougher competition, more equal competition.

[LI13]

Remember 15 or 20 years ago when West Genny and West Islip and Yorktown and sometimes Victor or Garden City or Canandigua and a bunch of other (public) programs that I can't recall were the best of the best? Remember when programs like Darien and Conestoga and frontier teams that made the pilgrimage to the I-95 corridor (and won out) got into the top echelon?

This doesn't happen anymore. The elite Private/Prep squads are too good. I've been an advocate for NEWest schools like my beloved Rhinos (ranked just #10 this year) on this and prior boards for almost 20 years, but I am not convinced that this is a good thing.

It is good to see the opinions of other Lacrosse-as-a-sport fans here. Replies are encouraged!

To be fair, it does still happen. Just this year, Victor went down to Maryland and beat St. Mary's (albeit after getting spanked by Calvert Hall the day before), Darien (in a very down year by their standards) took down Brunswick, Radnor smoked Malvern Prep, and Wilton beat Chaminade. I think even now, the national rankings inflate the relative status of a lot of these private schools relative to the elite public schools who are their peers. For the most part the prep schools just play themselves and then IL shuffles them up and down their top 15; there aren't many opportunities for the top publics to prove their worth against the MIAA/NEW-1/Culver/Lawrenceville.

Having said that, the depth of elite public school teams in any given year has shrunk considerably relative to the private schools, and it's only going to get more pronounced. A lot of public school programs and leagues have been stymied by the exodus of kids to the private leagues. A great example of this actually comes not from the prep ranks, but from a traditional catholic school on LI: St. Anthony's. The Friars have always been an elite national program, but in the past 5 years they've been able to attract more and more talent to the school. It's gotten to the point that their JV squad features a number of players who were starters for their local Suffolk County programs as 8th and 9th graders before transferring, who are now caught in the talent logjam and are waiting their turn. This has had a noticeable impact on the quality of Suffolk A lacrosse, which used to be considered the #2 high school league in the country after the MIAA. The outflow of talent has reduced the standard of competition, which then further hampers development of these programs. The league still has good players and teams, but it's a shell of what it used to be.

It really highlights just how incredible the Manhasset and Garden City youth programs are that they've been able to weather the mass exodus of players to Chaminade all these years. But these are also extremely affluent communities that are better equipped to maintain local development -- up to a point. Even elite programs like Manhasset and Darien are starting to lose top talent not just to local private schools as they used to, but to prep powers that are going to a more national model. Two rising senior starters for Lawrenceville are reclasses out of Manhasset. Darien has now lost two of its top 2026s to the Big Red, in addition to having two midfielders from the 2022 varsity squad reclass and transfer to Brunswick and Georgetown Prep. Lawrenceville also managed to poach a kid from West Genny whose father is a program legend and still involved in the local scene.

And lastly, there is the MIAA, where many top programs (specifically Boys' Latin, McDonogh, and Calvert Hall) have seen the way the landscape is trending and have happily joined the fray by importing talent from across the country. I just have to wonder if at the end of the day, winning is really all that matters; does the pride in developing and fielding a roster of local talent really not amount to anything anymore? Will these teams really be the pride of Baltimore when soon half their starting lineups are comprised of kids from out of state?

This is a great post R.O. and your lacrosse knowledge is much deeper than mine, but when you ask if winning is really all that matters I’d say to the coaches the answer is yes. To the players it’s probably a combo of wanting to compete against (and beat) the best of the best, plus the growing realization that St Anthony’s practices/scrimmages will teach you more than your local public school.

I don't have any issues with what's happening at St. Anthony's; nobody is re-classing for them, and those kids are showing humility and a desire to compete by going somewhere they might not get to play Varsity right away for the sake of their development. I only brought up the Friars to show the unfortunate byproduct of private schools soaking up so much of the local talent; it stunts the development of depth in the regional talent pool. The prep schools are Frankenstein monster versions of these private schools, and have taken things to the extreme. The increased emphasis on club ball relative to the high school season certainly hasn't helped. The whole system seems very cynical and presents a very hollow version of "winning". There are kids from California who play their high school ball in Baltimore and then play for LI clubs in the summer -- hard to ascribe any sense of community or deeper meaning to these teams when it's all just guns for hire in the pursuit of victory.

One thing Suffolk could do to help the St Anthony's problem is restructure competition to ensure the top programs spend more time playing each other and less time blowing out less developed programs.

I don't think the public schools in Suffolk (or in Nassau for that matter) are much interested in helping out St Anthony's or Chaminade especially given the fact that they tend to poach the best kids from those programs.

Remember not too long ago that the CHSAA filed a lawsuit against NYSPHSSAA to be included in state tournaments and lost

I think you must have misread my post. I have no interest in helping St Anthony's. My post was about what Suffolk could do differently to help retain more talent at Section XI schools.

OK. What did you have in mind?
Considering all of the eligibility rules apply to ALL sports and not just lacrosse.

Nothing about eligibility of players. I'm talking about making public school leagues more competitive. This is already done in Nassau on the girls side. Simply group the teams together by ability for regular season play. Have promotion and relegation.

There is no reason that Ward Melville plays South Fork Unified but not Mt Sinai or SWR or Comsewogue. None at all. It doesn't have to be that way. Let's eliminate these blowouts and give the top teams a competitive regular season so players won't need to go to St Anthony's to play competitive games.