Duke Fans

[wgdsr]

And I'd heard the "Kavanagh's are dirty players" accusation....wasn't sure what to make of that...

if Pat Kavanagh is on your team you say he plays with heart and if he is an opponent you say he is dirty, personally I would want 10 Pat Kavanaghs on my team any day.

As far as dirty, I thought Duke was head hunting yesterday, The hit on Chris Kavanagh could have been an ejection (IMHO) and another one on Lynch was not called but looked pretty bad as well.

Entenmann was one of the best games by a goalie I think I have ever seen, the saves were both quantity and quality.

Agreed on both the first and third paras.

I wouldn't go so far as to call those hits that way, but only because I don't know what is in each person's mind.

Absolutely deserved the 2 minutes unreleasable, and certainly could have been more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvz5i4My9Y

Extremely hard head to head. Dangerous.

In college football that hit would be targeting and the Duke player would have been thrown out of the game.

DocBarrister

No doubt about it. Those fussing that NCAA Lacrosse does not have concussion protocol, certainly should first fuss that contact like that to the head should be an immediate ejection; just as you note in the college football game. At least in the CF the helmets are designed to absorb helmet to helmet contact. To make matters even worse, lacrosse helmets are designed to primarily take the impact of the lacrosse ball along with incidental contact....not a fuggin' head shot right in the ear hole with multiple steps of momentum from the crown of an opposing player.

Slowmo starts at 1:23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvz5i4My9Y

It's quite common knowledge to intentionally go after the top opposing players....I recall seeing plenty of this stuff, notably.....Sowers, Sankey, and now Kav.....funny how you seldom see them go after the big boys; its really a complain move, but I get it, its lacrosse.

Would not be surprised if the NCAA lax rules committee eventually implements a targeting penalty similar to the one used in college football.

DocBarrister

what changes to the targeting penalty do you see them altering to fall more in line with college football?

[youthathletics]

And I'd heard the "Kavanagh's are dirty players" accusation....wasn't sure what to make of that...

if Pat Kavanagh is on your team you say he plays with heart and if he is an opponent you say he is dirty, personally I would want 10 Pat Kavanaghs on my team any day.

As far as dirty, I thought Duke was head hunting yesterday, The hit on Chris Kavanagh could have been an ejection (IMHO) and another one on Lynch was not called but looked pretty bad as well.

Entenmann was one of the best games by a goalie I think I have ever seen, the saves were both quantity and quality.

Agreed on both the first and third paras.

I wouldn't go so far as to call those hits that way, but only because I don't know what is in each person's mind.

Absolutely deserved the 2 minutes unreleasable, and certainly could have been more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvz5i4My9Y

Extremely hard head to head. Dangerous.

In college football that hit would be targeting and the Duke player would have been thrown out of the game.

DocBarrister

No doubt about it. Those fussing that NCAA Lacrosse does not have concussion protocol, certainly should first fuss that contact like that to the head should be an immediate ejection; just as you note in the college football game. At least in the CF the helmets are designed to absorb helmet to helmet contact. To make matters even worse, lacrosse helmets are designed to primarily take the impact of the lacrosse ball along with incidental contact....not a fuggin' head shot right in the ear hole with multiple steps of momentum from the crown of an opposing player.

Slowmo starts at 1:23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvz5i4My9Y

It's quite common knowledge to intentionally go after the top opposing players....I recall seeing plenty of this stuff, notably.....Sowers, Sankey, and now Kav.....funny how you seldom see them go after the big boys; its really a complain move, but I get it, its lacrosse.

Would not be surprised if the NCAA lax rules committee eventually implements a targeting penalty similar to the one used in college football.

DocBarrister

what changes to the targeting penalty do you see them altering to fall more in line with college football?

Doc can certainly answer as well, my 2 cents.
Page 9 of rules for 23/24: 5-3 Establishes standard penalties for contact to the head or neck area ..56

Page 56 has standards defined as judgement calls with no AR's associated with them. Bottom line....let em play, fuk the player, its not my kid.

Compared to FB rule book (article 4), it shows how our sport really is not serious about it. Otherwise they would make these calls and force on the field change.

[wgdsr]

And I'd heard the "Kavanagh's are dirty players" accusation....wasn't sure what to make of that...

if Pat Kavanagh is on your team you say he plays with heart and if he is an opponent you say he is dirty, personally I would want 10 Pat Kavanaghs on my team any day.

As far as dirty, I thought Duke was head hunting yesterday, The hit on Chris Kavanagh could have been an ejection (IMHO) and another one on Lynch was not called but looked pretty bad as well.

Entenmann was one of the best games by a goalie I think I have ever seen, the saves were both quantity and quality.

Agreed on both the first and third paras.

I wouldn't go so far as to call those hits that way, but only because I don't know what is in each person's mind.

Absolutely deserved the 2 minutes unreleasable, and certainly could have been more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvz5i4My9Y

Extremely hard head to head. Dangerous.

In college football that hit would be targeting and the Duke player would have been thrown out of the game.

DocBarrister

No doubt about it. Those fussing that NCAA Lacrosse does not have concussion protocol, certainly should first fuss that contact like that to the head should be an immediate ejection; just as you note in the college football game. At least in the CF the helmets are designed to absorb helmet to helmet contact. To make matters even worse, lacrosse helmets are designed to primarily take the impact of the lacrosse ball along with incidental contact....not a fuggin' head shot right in the ear hole with multiple steps of momentum from the crown of an opposing player.

Slowmo starts at 1:23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvz5i4My9Y

It's quite common knowledge to intentionally go after the top opposing players....I recall seeing plenty of this stuff, notably.....Sowers, Sankey, and now Kav.....funny how you seldom see them go after the big boys; its really a complain move, but I get it, its lacrosse.

Would not be surprised if the NCAA lax rules committee eventually implements a targeting penalty similar to the one used in college football.

DocBarrister

what changes to the targeting penalty do you see them altering to fall more in line with college football?

Doc can certainly answer as well, my 2 cents.
Page 9 of rules for 23/24: 5-3 Establishes standard penalties for contact to the head or neck area ..56

Page 56 has standards defined as judgement calls with no AR's associated with them. Bottom line....let em play, fuk the player, its not my kid.

Compared to FB rule book (article 4), it shows how our sport really is not serious about it. Otherwise they would make these calls and force on the field change.

well youth, ftr imo don't agree with your assessment that hit fits the standards for automatic ejection in football. there are yes, lots of moving parts to it in football, but:
- helmet to helmet was with the facemask and visor, not the crown. which even in slo mo replay you have as the crown. maybe you were influenced by the slight dip in bower's tilt ahead of it. but it's with the facemask/visor and his head and neck are up/aligned on and after contact.
- also wouldn't fit the lacrosse definition of defenseless player translated from college football
- also didn't launch off his feet or up
- so we're left with basically "targeting"/leading with helmet, elbow, yada. basically all hits to the head. kavanaugh was moving both fwd and sideways and had gotten himself into trouble bt 2 and then 3 guys. he also dipped some, maybe 6 to 12 inches late. bower "led" with a crosscheck. that's first contact. those variables are all taken into context, in lacrosse in the moment and in football additionally with video review. those last 6 feet happen in about a quarter of a second at varying angles here (diff from what someone could line up easier had they not been the case) @ high speed. so bower very well may have come in to lower the boom (he was), but doesn't mean he's so qualified that it came out exactly as planned (helmet to helmet).

also... very rarely if ever have i seen a dq even in college football with facemask (visor in this case) contact/head up of a "non-defenseless" player.

kavanaugh had the ball and saw him coming. that matters, too. was it dirty? anyone could argue that. especially the result. i'm not 100 on that given the above. ejectionable? a hard maybe. to me it looked like 2 to 3 min.

[MDlaxfan76]

on review, I'd certainly do 3 mins.

I tend to agree, however, that ejection should not be unthinkable.
Needs to be a real option.

[youthathletics]

my 2 cents.
Page 9 of rules for 23/24: 5-3 Establishes standard penalties for contact to the head or neck area ..56

Page 56 has standards defined as judgement calls with no AR's associated with them. Bottom line....let em play, fuk the player, its not my kid.

Compared to FB rule book (article 4), it shows how our sport really is not serious about it. Otherwise they would make these calls and force on the field change.

well youth, ftr imo don't agree with your assessment that hit fits the standards for automatic ejection in football. there are yes, lots of moving parts to it in football, but:
- helmet to helmet was with the facemask and visor, not the crown. which even in slo mo replay you have as the crown. maybe you were influenced by the slight dip in bower's tilt ahead of it. but it's with the facemask/visor and his head and neck are up/aligned on and after contact.
- also wouldn't fit the lacrosse definition of defenseless player translated from college football
- also didn't launch off his feet or up
- so we're left with basically "targeting"/leading with helmet, elbow, yada. basically all hits to the head. kavanaugh was moving both fwd and sideways and had gotten himself into trouble bt 2 and then 3 guys. he also dipped some, maybe 6 to 12 inches late. bower "led" with a crosscheck. that's first contact. those variables are all taken into context, in lacrosse in the moment and in football additionally with video review. those last 6 feet happen in about a quarter of a second at varying angles here (diff from what someone could line up easier had they not been the case) @ high speed. so bower very well may have come in to lower the boom (he was), but doesn't mean he's so qualified that it came out exactly as planned (helmet to helmet).

also... very rarely if ever have i seen a dq even in college football with facemask (visor in this case) contact/head up of a "non-defenseless" player.

kavanaugh had the ball and saw him coming. that matters, too. was it dirty? anyone could argue that. especially the result. i'm not 100 on that given the above. ejectionable? a hard maybe. to me it looked like 2 to 3 min.

In the interest of not having the thread grow a mile long.

~not sure where you see a facemask even come in to play.
~clearly lowers his head to initiate contact, and if there was a bit more time, the crown of his helmet is next, not incidental at all.
~ and based on the rules 3 minutes based on the rule requires ejection.
~ What the rules states:
..... Players who make direct contact to an opponent’s head and/or neck shall receive a two-minute nonreleasable penalty. When officials penalize this type of infraction, the committee is requiring that officials assess this penalty as “direct contact to the head.” Players who make excessive or flagrant contact to an opponent’s head and/ or neck shall receive a three-minute nonreleasable penalty and/or possible expulsion from the game. When officials penalize this type of infraction, the committee is requiring that officials assess this penalty as “excessive or flagrant contact to the head.”


I think we are bickering between direct contract and excessive/flagrant contact. You seem to lean direct, I lean the latter....b/c he intentionally lowers his head when there was no need for it. Maybe is was to protect himself as he saw PK falling down.

[wgdsr]

my 2 cents.
Page 9 of rules for 23/24: 5-3 Establishes standard penalties for contact to the head or neck area ..56

Page 56 has standards defined as judgement calls with no AR's associated with them. Bottom line....let em play, fuk the player, its not my kid.

Compared to FB rule book (article 4), it shows how our sport really is not serious about it. Otherwise they would make these calls and force on the field change.

well youth, ftr imo don't agree with your assessment that hit fits the standards for automatic ejection in football. there are yes, lots of moving parts to it in football, but:
- helmet to helmet was with the facemask and visor, not the crown. which even in slo mo replay you have as the crown. maybe you were influenced by the slight dip in bower's tilt ahead of it. but it's with the facemask/visor and his head and neck are up/aligned on and after contact.
- also wouldn't fit the lacrosse definition of defenseless player translated from college football
- also didn't launch off his feet or up
- so we're left with basically "targeting"/leading with helmet, elbow, yada. basically all hits to the head. kavanaugh was moving both fwd and sideways and had gotten himself into trouble bt 2 and then 3 guys. he also dipped some, maybe 6 to 12 inches late. bower "led" with a crosscheck. that's first contact. those variables are all taken into context, in lacrosse in the moment and in football additionally with video review. those last 6 feet happen in about a quarter of a second at varying angles here (diff from what someone could line up easier had they not been the case) @ high speed. so bower very well may have come in to lower the boom (he was), but doesn't mean he's so qualified that it came out exactly as planned (helmet to helmet).

also... very rarely if ever have i seen a dq even in college football with facemask (visor in this case) contact/head up of a "non-defenseless" player.

kavanaugh had the ball and saw him coming. that matters, too. was it dirty? anyone could argue that. especially the result. i'm not 100 on that given the above. ejectionable? a hard maybe. to me it looked like 2 to 3 min.

In the interest of not having the thread grow a mile long.

~not sure where you see a facemask even come in to play.
~clearly lowers his head to initiate contact, and if there was a bit more time, the crown of his helmet is next, not incidental at all.
~ and based on the rules 3 minutes based on the rule requires ejection.
~ What the rules states:
..... Players who make direct contact to an opponent’s head and/or neck shall receive a two-minute nonreleasable penalty. When officials penalize this type of infraction, the committee is requiring that officials assess this penalty as “direct contact to the head.” Players who make excessive or flagrant contact to an opponent’s head and/ or neck shall receive a three-minute nonreleasable penalty and/or possible expulsion from the game. When officials penalize this type of infraction, the committee is requiring that officials assess this penalty as “excessive or flagrant contact to the head.”


I think we are bickering between direct contract and excessive/flagrant contact. You seem to lean direct, I lean the latter....b/c he intentionally lowers his head when there was no need for it. Maybe is was to protect himself as he saw PK falling down.

the screenshots are cool and all, but in your 2nd photo, if it weren't behind kavanaugh's mask, you would see the visor and "top of" the mask as contact. freeze frame works well on that video.

didn't use the word incidental, was a descriptive of how i saw it line up. refs do the same.

rules everywhere are of course written poorly and sometimes tough to decipher, but this one is not. it says "and/or" expulsion. not "and". there'd be no such thing as expulsion and no 3 minute penalty assessed. 3 minutes and flagrant is not auto expulsion.

and again, the argument was college football ejection is serious, lax is not (which no small matter, needs video review not to mention possible appeals for some infractions). and in that context here, you'd need crown (agree to disagree), as well as leading with head. and as opposed to football, bower has a pole... and led with a crosscheck. the latter may be debatable somewhat, but in the context of football ejection parallels... had the player extended forearms to the chest as 1st contact in football, don't think there's any ejection there.

which is what i commented on.

[youthathletics]

my 2 cents.
Page 9 of rules for 23/24: 5-3 Establishes standard penalties for contact to the head or neck area ..56

Page 56 has standards defined as judgement calls with no AR's associated with them. Bottom line....let em play, fuk the player, its not my kid.

Compared to FB rule book (article 4), it shows how our sport really is not serious about it. Otherwise they would make these calls and force on the field change.

well youth, ftr imo don't agree with your assessment that hit fits the standards for automatic ejection in football. there are yes, lots of moving parts to it in football, but:
- helmet to helmet was with the facemask and visor, not the crown. which even in slo mo replay you have as the crown. maybe you were influenced by the slight dip in bower's tilt ahead of it. but it's with the facemask/visor and his head and neck are up/aligned on and after contact.
- also wouldn't fit the lacrosse definition of defenseless player translated from college football
- also didn't launch off his feet or up
- so we're left with basically "targeting"/leading with helmet, elbow, yada. basically all hits to the head. kavanaugh was moving both fwd and sideways and had gotten himself into trouble bt 2 and then 3 guys. he also dipped some, maybe 6 to 12 inches late. bower "led" with a crosscheck. that's first contact. those variables are all taken into context, in lacrosse in the moment and in football additionally with video review. those last 6 feet happen in about a quarter of a second at varying angles here (diff from what someone could line up easier had they not been the case) @ high speed. so bower very well may have come in to lower the boom (he was), but doesn't mean he's so qualified that it came out exactly as planned (helmet to helmet).

also... very rarely if ever have i seen a dq even in college football with facemask (visor in this case) contact/head up of a "non-defenseless" player.

kavanaugh had the ball and saw him coming. that matters, too. was it dirty? anyone could argue that. especially the result. i'm not 100 on that given the above. ejectionable? a hard maybe. to me it looked like 2 to 3 min.

In the interest of not having the thread grow a mile long.

~not sure where you see a facemask even come in to play.
~clearly lowers his head to initiate contact, and if there was a bit more time, the crown of his helmet is next, not incidental at all.
~ and based on the rules 3 minutes based on the rule requires ejection.
~ What the rules states:
..... Players who make direct contact to an opponent’s head and/or neck shall receive a two-minute nonreleasable penalty. When officials penalize this type of infraction, the committee is requiring that officials assess this penalty as “direct contact to the head.” Players who make excessive or flagrant contact to an opponent’s head and/ or neck shall receive a three-minute nonreleasable penalty and/or possible expulsion from the game. When officials penalize this type of infraction, the committee is requiring that officials assess this penalty as “excessive or flagrant contact to the head.”


I think we are bickering between direct contract and excessive/flagrant contact. You seem to lean direct, I lean the latter....b/c he intentionally lowers his head when there was no need for it. Maybe is was to protect himself as he saw PK falling down.

the screenshots are cool and all, but in your 2nd photo, if it weren't behind kavanaugh's mask, you would see the visor and "top of" the mask as contact. freeze frame works well on that video.

didn't use the word incidental, was a descriptive of how i saw it line up. refs do the same.

rules everywhere are of course written poorly and sometimes tough to decipher, but this one is not. it says "and/or" expulsion. not "and". there'd be no such thing as expulsion and no 3 minute penalty assessed. 3 minutes and flagrant is not auto expulsion.

and again, the argument was college football ejection is serious, lax is not (which no small matter, needs video review not to mention possible appeals for some infractions). and in that context here, you'd need crown (agree to disagree), as well as leading with head. and as opposed to football, bower has a pole... and led with a crosscheck. the latter may be debatable somewhat, but in the context of football ejection parallels... had the player extended forearms to the chest as 1st contact in football, don't think there's any ejection there.

which is what i commented on.

Ejections in football for far less (see below).... the rules are there to protect 'both' players. And yes, video replay is crucial to deciding, otherwise lacrosse would need even more referees, just so they could make more mistakes. And b/c we do NOT have review, the err should be on safety/prevention. Seems the message now is 'im just gonna send it...refs arent ejecting anyone.

BTW - I can not find anything that stats fouls, by player/team anywhere. Would be interesting to see this broken down.

[Njlaxx11]

majority of ND fans are just irish and don't have any actual reason of liking them other then that.

duke fans are basically Dallas Cowboy fans.

it is what it is, i think most fans would be upset losing in a championship game - and a segment of them act irrationally doing so.

[jersey shore lax]

majority of ND fans are just irish and don't have any actual reason of liking them other then that.

duke fans are basically Dallas Cowboy fans.

it is what it is, i think most fans would be upset losing in a championship game - and a segment of them act irrationally doing so.

that was a perfect breakdown

- I would add that it seems like Duke has become the Johns Hopkins fans of the 2020's, they seem to have developed a sense of entitlement

[DocBarrister]

on review, I'd certainly do 3 mins.

I tend to agree, however, that ejection should not be unthinkable.
Needs to be a real option.

I believe in college football an ejection is mandatory.

That’s the rule change I would make … if it’s a head-to-head hit … targeting … mandatory ejection.

DocBarrister

[10 10 2]

What should the penalty be for wearing your helmet too loose? I've been seeing guys with their chin strap not tightened all year long, and the helmet pops off or comes halfway off their heads from almost any, even legal, contact. If we truly cared about concussions we would be strictly enforcing these rules and giving offenders 3 minute unreleasable penalties.

[Mr3Putt]

If K Brower came back in 24’, does he get suspended for 2-3 games? He is listed as a senior. But these days it’s difficult to determine class status.

[wgdsr]

If K Brower came back in 24’, does he get suspended for 2-3 games? He is listed as a senior. But these days it’s difficult to determine class status.

no. he won't be suspended one additional minute.

this place has gone nutz.

[MDlaxfan76]

What should the penalty be for wearing your helmet too loose? I've been seeing guys with their chin strap not tightened all year long, and the helmet pops off or comes halfway off their heads from almost any, even legal, contact. If we truly cared about concussions we would be strictly enforcing these rules and giving offenders 3 minute unreleasable penalties.

There's a rule on proper equipment, but no, wearing your equipment loosely is not remotely the same as targeting.

[MDlaxfan76]

If K Brower came back in 24’, does he get suspended for 2-3 games? He is listed as a senior. But these days it’s difficult to determine class status.

no. he won't be suspended one additional minute.

this place has gone nutz.

Agreed.

We can discuss what rules should be, or whether this hit deserved 3 mins versus 2, but the rules are what they are right now. And the call was made. It's over.

[youthathletics]

If K Brower came back in 24’, does he get suspended for 2-3 games? He is listed as a senior. But these days it’s difficult to determine class status.

no. he won't be suspended one additional minute.

this place is has gone nutz.

fixed it for ya

[BlueJaySince1947]

Dook fans are Dorques...

[LaxAllStars]

Duke assistant coach Ron Caputo
Dec 2023

https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show ... to-e2do10g

[LaxAllStars]

Duke has 15 fifth year seniors & grad students

https://laxallstars.com/notre-dame-duke ... e-a-remix/

[pcowlax]

Duke has 15 fifth year seniors & grad students

https://laxallstars.com/notre-dame-duke ... e-a-remix/

What did I just read? Quint