Programs with an Identity, Programs without

[MoralTerpitude]

Yeah, I was thinking of UCLA and Indiana as being close, but not quite in the same category as the rest of the blue bloods for college basketball. Indiana was there at one point, as they had won titles under McCracken and of course Knight. And UCLA was similar to Duke, in that Wooden put them in the category by himself.

UNC is an interesting question. They have the fifth most titles, and have won in multiple eras, under multiple coaches. The have won a title within the last ten years, and made a FF in the last five. Yet nearly any lacrosse fan would agree they are not in the top tier of the ACC, and don’t look like they will be back any time soon.

But that being said, UNC basketball had some lean years after Dean Smith retired, and to me the question is if Breschi were to leave tomorrow, how attractive a job would Chapel Hill be? If they could attract any coach except from the current blue bloods… then the program has to be considered a blue blood.

[Farfromgeneva]

That's a good cut off point. Comparing it to college hoops, UCLA was a blue blood when Wooden retired cause they had the incredible run of success, but from 1980-1995, when the tournament expanded and grew in popularity, they made 0 F4s. They then won the national title in 1995, but didn't make another F4 until 2006. So 25 years with 1 national title and 0 other F4s. By that point they had been pretty much knocked out of the blue blood tier by Duke. They made 3 F4s in the mid-00s with Howland but then had a decade or so decline. They haven't sustained the way UNC, KU, Kentucky have and Duke did for 40 years with K.

Indiana was another considered in that tier with Knight during the 70s and 80s. But since their last F4 in 1992 they've only made 1 and since 2002 made 0 Elite Eights. 20-25 years of not being in that tier takes you out.

Which is why Princeton isn't in that tier anymore, nor would I include UNC. They have good results since the early 90s but not at the MD/UVA/Hop/Cuse or Duke tier. They're more in the Old Gods sort of group, they have incredible history and were a foundational team in the sport but now are in a second sort of tier. Cornell qualifies in there as well.

Duke is a tricky one bc of the lack of longer history but for 20+ years now they've been in that elite tier and that's a pretty long time. It's similar to how they broke into the tier with Coach K in hoops.

The Old gods are cooler. Though Mr World is a baller.

https://youtu.be/vgheNc-8fjg

[faircornell]

Personally, I prefer the term "Powerhouse". Blue Blood (in its historic meaning) connotes legacy and provenance. The Service Academies, The Maryland/Virginia schools, the Ivies and a few Upstate NY schools (Syracuse, Hobart, Cortland,
etc) were stewards of the game for a very long time. Long Islsnd schools like Adelphi, CW Post and Hofstra could also be added.

There would be no intercollegiate lacrosse today without these stewards of the game. As a timely example, the just announced USILA awards were ( at least partly) initiated by service academy vets to honor players lost in overseas combat.

[GreyingHound]

How about this. Do you consider a team a Blue blood if they haven’t won a NC?

What if your last one is more than 10-15yrs old?

That counts in my book

What about further, like Army/Navy/Cornell/Towson? Or simply whats the list? Where's the cutoff on time? While I'm setting you up to F with me, would you include Hobart? (I'm sure no but 12 in a row throughout an entire decade most here know isn't nothing)

D1 champion. I don’t know all the history. But I would count Army, Navy and Cornell.

Would you consider ND one? I would not. If they pull it off this weekend, sure.

Cuse, JHU, Princeton, UVA, UNC, UMD, Cornell, Duke, Loyola, and Yale would be the only blue bloods if this was the case.

Seriously... Loyola

They'd be in my upper right hand quadrant, though obviously not as upper right corner as some others. Program started in 1938 (though not above 500 for most of the USILA period), and they're one of the few to have a NC, and during NCAA era have made it to the quarters 17 times, with two runners-up to go with the 1 title. Heck of a lot more than most programs.

Agreed, although to be fair, Loyola has only 1 2nd-place finish (1990) and 1 title (2012), and a total of 4 final four appearances.

It would appear that BlueJaySince1947 is a bit salty after seeing the Jays lose 7 of the last 9 to the Hounds.

[MDlaxfan76]

How about this. Do you consider a team a Blue blood if they haven’t won a NC?

What if your last one is more than 10-15yrs old?

That counts in my book

What about further, like Army/Navy/Cornell/Towson? Or simply whats the list? Where's the cutoff on time? While I'm setting you up to F with me, would you include Hobart? (I'm sure no but 12 in a row throughout an entire decade most here know isn't nothing)

D1 champion. I don’t know all the history. But I would count Army, Navy and Cornell.

Would you consider ND one? I would not. If they pull it off this weekend, sure.

Cuse, JHU, Princeton, UVA, UNC, UMD, Cornell, Duke, Loyola, and Yale would be the only blue bloods if this was the case.

Seriously... Loyola

They'd be in my upper right hand quadrant, though obviously not as upper right corner as some others. Program started in 1938 (though not above 500 for most of the USILA period), and they're one of the few to have a NC, and during NCAA era have made it to the quarters 17 times, with two runners-up to go with the 1 title. Heck of a lot more than most programs.

Agreed, although to be fair, Loyola has only 1 2nd-place finish (1990) and 1 title (2012), and a total of 4 final four appearances.

It would appear that BlueJaySince1947 is a bit salty after seeing the Jays lose 7 of the last 9 to the Hounds.

17 quarters is definitely top right quadrant... however '47 has lived through a long era in which 17 and just one NC doesn't sound so impressive. I'd have Hopkins way out of the right, but not so many points recently... And if we did a time lapse of the quadrants, we'd see Loyola moving rightward over the last two decades, Hopkins moving leftward. But Hopkins' "blue blood" is indisputable. The question is whether they can re-charge their regular top relevance...I'd bet they can.

[Farfromgeneva]

How about this. Do you consider a team a Blue blood if they haven’t won a NC?

What if your last one is more than 10-15yrs old?

That counts in my book

What about further, like Army/Navy/Cornell/Towson? Or simply whats the list? Where's the cutoff on time? While I'm setting you up to F with me, would you include Hobart? (I'm sure no but 12 in a row throughout an entire decade most here know isn't nothing)

D1 champion. I don’t know all the history. But I would count Army, Navy and Cornell.

Would you consider ND one? I would not. If they pull it off this weekend, sure.

Cuse, JHU, Princeton, UVA, UNC, UMD, Cornell, Duke, Loyola, and Yale would be the only blue bloods if this was the case.

Seriously... Loyola

They'd be in my upper right hand quadrant, though obviously not as upper right corner as some others. Program started in 1938 (though not above 500 for most of the USILA period), and they're one of the few to have a NC, and during NCAA era have made it to the quarters 17 times, with two runners-up to go with the 1 title. Heck of a lot more than most programs.

Agreed, although to be fair, Loyola has only 1 2nd-place finish (1990) and 1 title (2012), and a total of 4 final four appearances.

It would appear that BlueJaySince1947 is a bit salty after seeing the Jays lose 7 of the last 9 to the Hounds.

17 quarters is definitely top right quadrant... however '47 has lived through a long era in which 17 and just one NC doesn't sound so impressive. I'd have Hopkins way out of the right, but not so many points recently... And if we did a time lapse of the quadrants, we'd see Loyola moving rightward over the last two decades, Hopkins moving leftward. But Hopkins' "blue blood" is indisputable. The question is whether they can re-charge their regular top relevance...I'd bet they can.

I threw out off the cuff for contemporary something like 8 out of past 20 quarters appearances and that sort of cutoff seems about right. I also think starting at the 16 team tourney where there weren’t byes into round two and there was at least an attempt at applying data and less qualitative aspects is important. That’s early 2000s.

Not for legacy blue blood but for what matters today. So applying that (arbitrary but 50% seems a bit much over two decades and 1/3 seems light). But if we’re using NCAA period of about 41-42 seasons that would out Loyola’s 17 right around the cutoff basically 17/40 being 42.5% so close enough to not bother refining further by my lazy a**). Backdoor analysis but over the past 20-40yrs doesnt that seem about the cutoff-Loyola?

[BlueJaySince1947]

How about this. Do you consider a team a Blue blood if they haven’t won a NC?

What if your last one is more than 10-15yrs old?

That counts in my book

What about further, like Army/Navy/Cornell/Towson? Or simply whats the list? Where's the cutoff on time? While I'm setting you up to F with me, would you include Hobart? (I'm sure no but 12 in a row throughout an entire decade most here know isn't nothing)

D1 champion. I don’t know all the history. But I would count Army, Navy and Cornell.

Would you consider ND one? I would not. If they pull it off this weekend, sure.

Cuse, JHU, Princeton, UVA, UNC, UMD, Cornell, Duke, Loyola, and Yale would be the only blue bloods if this was the case.

Seriously... Loyola

They'd be in my upper right hand quadrant, though obviously not as upper right corner as some others. Program started in 1938 (though not above 500 for most of the USILA period), and they're one of the few to have a NC, and during NCAA era have made it to the quarters 17 times, with two runners-up to go with the 1 title. Heck of a lot more than most programs.

Agreed, although to be fair, Loyola has only 1 2nd-place finish (1990) and 1 title (2012), and a total of 4 final four appearances.

It would appear that BlueJaySince1947 is a bit salty after seeing the Jays lose 7 of the last 9 to the Hounds.

I did see the Jays smash Loyola 29 - 3...

[GreyingHound]

How about this. Do you consider a team a Blue blood if they haven’t won a NC?

What if your last one is more than 10-15yrs old?

That counts in my book

What about further, like Army/Navy/Cornell/Towson? Or simply whats the list? Where's the cutoff on time? While I'm setting you up to F with me, would you include Hobart? (I'm sure no but 12 in a row throughout an entire decade most here know isn't nothing)

D1 champion. I don’t know all the history. But I would count Army, Navy and Cornell.

Would you consider ND one? I would not. If they pull it off this weekend, sure.

Cuse, JHU, Princeton, UVA, UNC, UMD, Cornell, Duke, Loyola, and Yale would be the only blue bloods if this was the case.

Seriously... Loyola

They'd be in my upper right hand quadrant, though obviously not as upper right corner as some others. Program started in 1938 (though not above 500 for most of the USILA period), and they're one of the few to have a NC, and during NCAA era have made it to the quarters 17 times, with two runners-up to go with the 1 title. Heck of a lot more than most programs.

Agreed, although to be fair, Loyola has only 1 2nd-place finish (1990) and 1 title (2012), and a total of 4 final four appearances.

It would appear that BlueJaySince1947 is a bit salty after seeing the Jays lose 7 of the last 9 to the Hounds.

I did see the Jays smash Loyola 29 - 3...

Yes, indeed - 1959. The series wasn't very competitive back then, and blow-outs weren't uncommon.

Times have changed though. The Hounds have won in the last five years by scores of 13-8, 10-7, 18-12, and 12-5, and the Jays' four most recent wins were by a single goal - 11-10, 14-13, 10-9 OT, 8-7.

[Farfromgeneva]

How about this. Do you consider a team a Blue blood if they haven’t won a NC?

What if your last one is more than 10-15yrs old?

That counts in my book

What about further, like Army/Navy/Cornell/Towson? Or simply whats the list? Where's the cutoff on time? While I'm setting you up to F with me, would you include Hobart? (I'm sure no but 12 in a row throughout an entire decade most here know isn't nothing)

D1 champion. I don’t know all the history. But I would count Army, Navy and Cornell.

Would you consider ND one? I would not. If they pull it off this weekend, sure.

Cuse, JHU, Princeton, UVA, UNC, UMD, Cornell, Duke, Loyola, and Yale would be the only blue bloods if this was the case.

Seriously... Loyola

They'd be in my upper right hand quadrant, though obviously not as upper right corner as some others. Program started in 1938 (though not above 500 for most of the USILA period), and they're one of the few to have a NC, and during NCAA era have made it to the quarters 17 times, with two runners-up to go with the 1 title. Heck of a lot more than most programs.

Agreed, although to be fair, Loyola has only 1 2nd-place finish (1990) and 1 title (2012), and a total of 4 final four appearances.

It would appear that BlueJaySince1947 is a bit salty after seeing the Jays lose 7 of the last 9 to the Hounds.

I did see the Jays smash Loyola 29 - 3...

Yes, indeed - 1959. The series wasn't very competitive back then, and blow-outs weren't uncommon.

Times have changed though. The Hounds have won in the last five years by scores of 13-8, 10-7, 18-12, and 12-5, and the Jays' four most recent wins were by a single goal - 11-10, 14-13, 10-9 OT, 8-7.

Times have changed, TVs have color now!

[old salt]

W & L, Hobart & Cortland State all deserve mention, for different reasons. They certainly have (or had) identities.

[faircornell]

W & L, Hobart & Cortland State all deserve mention, for different reasons. They certainly have (or had) identities.

+1000