Mental Health, Abuse and reporting in Women's Lacrosse

[njbill]

What school?

[Sllaxdad]

If I wanted to include more details, I would have.

We can all agree that it is unusual to have administrators monitor behavior of a school employee for what is essentially an extracurricular activity. Would Colgate do the same monitoring for a science lab, musical production, or a club team. I have no doubt that the employee involved in that activity would be assigned different tasks or projects, separated from the students involved, while a more permanent solution is implemented.

The mission is to educate children, whether teenagers or young adults. Lax is just an activity and many schools exist without fielding a team. Standing from a far, as an observer and tuition paying consumer, IMO, Colgate, the institution (as opposed to the coach or the current/former students) does not appear to be handling this employee in a manner to instill confidence in their decision making.

[njbill]

Or you could’ve simply answered my question. You are the one who posted about the school, not me. Early in this thread, the school wasn’t identified. Ultimately it was. Why not the same for the school you posted about?

I also wonder where you live, but you are not obligated to answer that either of course. You use the phrase “Northern nj.” That makes me think you are from out of state because people in New Jersey say North Jersey or South Jersey, not northern nj or southern nj. (See the NJSIAA classifications and tournament brackets which use the North/South terminology.)

I’m curious because I know a lot of people in the North Jersey lacrosse community. I’m interested in checking out your story (you say it is similar to Colgate) to see what, if any, relevance or similarity it has to the Colgate situation. Pretty hard to do without the name of the school or any indication what connection you have to it.

[Sllaxdad]

Well I can say this exchange has made our family decision a layup. … Colgate is off the list of potential schools. Thank you for saving us the time and money visiting campus with our children.

[Sllaxdad]

And to finish this exchange, I was born in and lived my entire life in Essex County. Yes that’s Northern NJ. I was educated in South Orange and Newark and have been practicing law in Northern NJ for 35+ years, where I continue to own real property, business interest and maintain a law practice…. my wife is also from the same county. Both of our parents and grandparents, cousins and extended family were born in and remain Essex County residents. We cannot have more deeper NJ roots.

Having 4 children and the multiple teams/programs that they have participated in over the years, we have seen enough of these situations to have a grasp on what happened without needing video proof. My simple point was that the administration has handled this poorly for both the Coach and students and is reflective of poor management.

I enjoy reading your posts, and understand your opinions but simply differ on this topic.

[njbill]

Yes, I do differ with you on this subject. Complaints were made, an investigation was conducted, and the school took corrective action. The school says there have been no new complaints since the changes were made.

You are within your rights not to name the school you are talking about, of course, but without doing so, it is next to impossible to evaluate whether that situation is analogous or not. If, as you say, the steps did not work at that private school, that has little to no bearing on whether what Colgate has done will work there.

I would think people would be hoping the steps do work at Colgate. Why not give them a chance? If they don’t work and the alleged abusive practices continue, then fire the coach. If they do work, that would be a good thing.

The fact that so many people seem to be “rooting” for the remedial action to fail and the coach to be fired is distressing to me.

Some players evidently had bad experiences with Taylor. They are gone now, either graduated or have left the team. Why not let the current players decide for themselves whether they wish to continue playing for Taylor? Not that the Instagram posts are the be all and end all, but it sure looks like a bunch of happy kids having a good time to me.

[Brownlax]

Yes, I do differ with you on this subject. Complaints were made, an investigation was conducted, and the school took corrective action. The school says there have been no new complaints since the changes were made.

You are within your rights not to name the school you are talking about, of course, but without doing so, it is next to impossible to evaluate whether that situation is analogous or not. If, as you say, the steps did not work at that private school, that has little to no bearing on whether what Colgate has done will work there.

I would think people would be hoping the steps do work at Colgate. Why not give them a chance? If they don’t work and the alleged abusive practices continue, then fire the coach. If they do work, that would be a good thing.

The fact that so many people seem to be “rooting” for the remedial action to fail and the coach to be fired is distressing to me.

Some players evidently had bad experiences with Taylor. They are gone now, either graduated or have left the team. Why not let the current players decide for themselves whether they wish to continue playing for Taylor? Not that the Instagram posts are the be all and end all, but it sure looks like a bunch of happy kids having a good time to me.

Colgate is 1-6 - they can’t be too happy.

Lastly - if the coach is asking players to support her on social media and the school issuing an update is not a good look for Gate.

[njbill]

How do you know?

The update was in response to the Rochester newspaper and Maroon articles, I think.

[Downhill Dodger]

Colgate issued this response a few minutes ago which said in part:

“Since the conclusion of the review, the University has not received any similar reports or concerns from current student-athletes about Coach Kathy Taylor or any other member of the coaching staff.”

https://thecolgatemaroonnews.com/41857/ ... sse-coach/

Last summer Colgate instituted measures to address the allegations. While it is clear those steps did not satisfy some individuals who appear to no longer be involved with the program, I think it’s better to see whether these measures accomplish what they are designed to do. If they don’t, then further action can be taken. If they do, that would be a good thing.

It is encouraging to hear that there have been no new complaints this year.

The basically are setting her up to be fired....its called "fitting the jacket"

Someone will make a complaint and she will be gone....Colgate basically gave them a roadmap

[Can Opener]

Colgate issued this response a few minutes ago which said in part:

“Since the conclusion of the review, the University has not received any similar reports or concerns from current student-athletes about Coach Kathy Taylor or any other member of the coaching staff.”

https://thecolgatemaroonnews.com/41857/ ... sse-coach/

Last summer Colgate instituted measures to address the allegations. While it is clear those steps did not satisfy some individuals who appear to no longer be involved with the program, I think it’s better to see whether these measures accomplish what they are designed to do. If they don’t, then further action can be taken. If they do, that would be a good thing.

It is encouraging to hear that there have been no new complaints this year.

The basically are setting her up to be fired....its called "fitting the jacket"

Someone will make a complaint and she will be gone....Colgate basically gave them a roadmap

Interesting point. They essentially created a trip wire that gets triggered as soon as someone makes another complaint.

It's also noteworthy that Cornell -- the former Colgate AD's new home -- had a nearly identical episode with its women's softball team in 2019:
"Softball Players Detail Years of Mistreatment by Coach, Neglect by Cornell Athletics"
https://cornellsun.com/2019/05/06/softb ... athletics/

I'm confident this was a topic of conversation in Dr. Moore's interview process at Cornell. The timing must have been quite tricky for her. She was interviewing at Cornell in the midst of the KT controversy that mirrored the Cornell softball problems from three years earlier. On one hand, she could show Cornell how seriously she took this issue by firing KT instead of pursuing the administrative actions she ultimately chose. On the other hand, she would have seriously offended a family with deep ties to Cornell athletics. KT, her husband and her son all played lacrosse for the Big Red and remained active in the local lacrosse community. KT and her husband are members of the upstate lacrosse hall of fame. I imagine they have many friends inside the Cornell power structure.

It probably also didn't reflect well on Dr. Moore in the interview process that she hired KT only a month after the Cornell softball story broke, despite knowing that KT was an old school hardo (according to even her strong supporters.) A Cornell search committee member could reasonably ask: How does an AD with a PhD in counseling psychology who is married to an athletic "mental performance specialist" hire a known "tough love" coach? I would like to think that Dr. Moore had the Colgate women's best interests at heart throughout, but it would only be human nature for her to consider implications for her own best interests.

As a side note, in case anyone is still wondering why a current player would be reluctant to file a complaint about their coach, you should check out what happened to a couple of Cornell softball players one day after the initial Cornell Daily Sun story was published:
"Two Cornell Softball Players Dismissed From Team Day After 2019 Season Ends"
https://cornellsun.com/2019/05/10/two-c ... ason-ends/

[Downhill Dodger]

Colgate issued this response a few minutes ago which said in part:

“Since the conclusion of the review, the University has not received any similar reports or concerns from current student-athletes about Coach Kathy Taylor or any other member of the coaching staff.”

https://thecolgatemaroonnews.com/41857/ ... sse-coach/

Last summer Colgate instituted measures to address the allegations. While it is clear those steps did not satisfy some individuals who appear to no longer be involved with the program, I think it’s better to see whether these measures accomplish what they are designed to do. If they don’t, then further action can be taken. If they do, that would be a good thing.

It is encouraging to hear that there have been no new complaints this year.

The basically are setting her up to be fired....its called "fitting the jacket"

Someone will make a complaint and she will be gone....Colgate basically gave them a roadmap

Interesting point. They essentially created a trip wire that gets triggered as soon as someone makes another complaint.

It's also noteworthy that Cornell -- the former Colgate AD's new home -- had a nearly identical episode with its women's softball team in 2019:
"Softball Players Detail Years of Mistreatment by Coach, Neglect by Cornell Athletics"
https://cornellsun.com/2019/05/06/softb ... athletics/

I'm confident this was a topic of conversation in Dr. Moore's interview process at Cornell. The timing must have been quite tricky for her. She was interviewing at Cornell in the midst of the KT controversy that mirrored the Cornell softball problems from three years earlier. On one hand, she could show Cornell how seriously she took this issue by firing KT instead of pursuing the administrative actions she ultimately chose. On the other hand, she would have seriously offended a family with deep ties to Cornell athletics. KT, her husband and her son all played lacrosse for the Big Red and remained active in the local lacrosse community. KT and her husband are members of the upstate lacrosse hall of fame. I imagine they have many friends inside the Cornell power structure.

It probably also didn't reflect well on Dr. Moore in the interview process that she hired KT only a month after the Cornell softball story broke, despite knowing that KT was an old school hardo (according to even her strong supporters.) A Cornell search committee member could reasonably ask: How does an AD with a PhD in counseling psychology who is married to an athletic "mental performance specialist" hire a known "tough love" coach? I would like to think that Dr. Moore had the Colgate women's best interests at heart throughout, but it would only be human nature for her to consider implications for her own best interests.

As a side note, in case anyone is still wondering why a current player would be reluctant to file a complaint about their coach, you should check out what happened to a couple of Cornell softball players one day after the initial Cornell Daily Sun story was published:
"Two Cornell Softball Players Dismissed From Team Day After 2019 Season Ends"
https://cornellsun.com/2019/05/10/two-c ... ason-ends/

Occam's razor, (Latin: novacula Occami) in philosophy is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements.

AD: I want the Cornell job, I am not going to do anything to PO or to harm my candidacy by rocking the boat with people with ties to the Cornell Athletic Community. The best action is no action, that is what she did here

Always look to the incentives for an explanation of the actions

[LaxPundit07]

John Sung 'resigns/retires' midseason after team's Spring Break trip......per Instagram coachjsung:

[Brownlax]

John Sung 'resigns/retires' midseason after team's Spring Break trip......per Instagram coachjsung:

Mid-season is really strange. You don't just make the decision to leave coaching and leave your team hanging.

[Can Opener]

“Coaching abuse pervasive in pro, college athletics. What's being done to address it?“
From NorthJersey.com
https://www.recordonline.com/story/news ... 008637007/

[LaxPundit07]

John Sung 'resigns/retires' midseason after team's Spring Break trip......per Instagram coachjsung:

Mid-season is really strange. You don't just make the decision to leave coaching and leave your team hanging.

Indeed it is. Its best for all those involved; mostly the players. Trust me.

[Brownlax]

John Sung 'resigns/retires' midseason after team's Spring Break trip......per Instagram coachjsung:

Mid-season is really strange. You don't just make the decision to leave coaching and leave your team hanging.

Indeed it is. Its best for all those involved; mostly the players. Trust me.

I'm with you on that 100%

[MDlaxfan76]

“Coaching abuse pervasive in pro, college athletics. What's being done to address it?“
From NorthJersey.com
https://www.recordonline.com/story/news ... 008637007/

Very interesting. Consistent with the situations with which I am familiar.

[Can Opener]

Harvard women’s hockey situation update
https://theathletic.com/4342341/2023/03 ... ach-leave/

[LaxDadMax]

long-time read, first time poster here.

My 2024 daughter was recruited aggressively by Colgate this past fall. She ultimately decided to commit to another school (D1 with strong academics). Wanted to share our experiences within the recruiting process. We had heard rumors about this program in the past, but that didn't really impact our decisions.

Ultimately, the deciding factor came down to a few things

1) Coaching style. My daughter absolutely loved the lead assistant Jess but didn't really connect to Kathy. If Colgate had named the assistant the head coach, my daughter probably would have committed to Colgate.

Nothing that negative at all she just really wasn't able to relate to her the way coaches at other schools could. The one comment I remember, "I know she isn't that old, but it feels like she is 60." Also, when my daughter asked questions about her offensive strategy, she dismissed them and pretty much said, "we will run, whatever I decide". Also whenever she complimented her, it was always about physical things. (eg. "I love your height and speed. we need an entire team build like you."). Nothing wrong with that per say, it just rubbed her the wrong way.

2) Players on team. We are from an area which has several girls on the team. Feedback is the team is very clique-ish. There is definitely an us against them mentality of underclassmen vs older girls. Very different than at other schools we talked to.

3) Budget. Maybe this is just perception, but Colgate felt like it didn't have close to the resources as other schools we looked at (mostly Ivy and Patriot League). Whether it was not the nicest warmup or cheap jerseys at prospect days, it definitely sent a message that the school wasn't investing in the program.

[MDlaxfan76]

long-time read, first time poster here.

My 2024 daughter was recruited aggressively by Colgate this past fall. She ultimately decided to commit to another school (D1 with strong academics). Wanted to share our experiences within the recruiting process. We had heard rumors about this program in the past, but that didn't really impact our decisions.

Ultimately, the deciding factor came down to a few things

1) Coaching style. My daughter absolutely loved the lead assistant Jess but didn't really connect to Kathy. If Colgate had named the assistant the head coach, my daughter probably would have committed to Colgate.

Nothing that negative at all she just really wasn't able to relate to her the way coaches at other schools could. The one comment I remember, "I know she isn't that old, but it feels like she is 60." Also, when my daughter asked questions about her offensive strategy, she dismissed them and pretty much said, "we will run, whatever I decide". Also whenever she complimented her, it was always about physical things. (eg. "I love your height and speed. we need an entire team build like you."). Nothing wrong with that per say, it just rubbed her the wrong way.

2) Players on team. We are from an area which has several girls on the team. Feedback is the team is very clique-ish. There is definitely an us against them mentality of underclassmen vs older girls. Very different than at other schools we talked to.

3) Budget. Maybe this is just perception, but Colgate felt like it didn't have close to the resources as other schools we looked at (mostly Ivy and Patriot League). Whether it was not the nicest warmup or cheap jerseys at prospect days, it definitely sent a message that the school wasn't investing in the program.

Very interesting comments.

Putting aside the specifics re Colgate and staying on the general topic, the #1 section is quite interesting. The "age" needn't be a negative, if a coach exudes energy and cultural awareness, as well as competence and authority, but the proxy "60" is likely more about this notion that players need to shut up and do as the coach directs...players have never actually liked that approach, but now they're willing to walk from it. They want to be part of the choices made, a natural thing at this age as they become adult and gain 'ownership' of themselves...and their team. The 'best' coaches have always understood and tapped into this, but too many substituted authority for internal motivation.

The answer about offensive strategy was a huge 'tell',,,good for your daughter for picking up on that dismissiveness. Frankly, that was a weird answer for someone who presumably does have a "strategy" or "theory"...how hard is it to say something like, "we really value ball movement and off ball movement, with a green light for the players to take it hard when the team creates a window..."...how you get there is way more specific, but how about "we also evaluate our opponent's strengths and weaknesses and look to exploit those"...or some such generalization? But "we will run whatever I decide" message...yuck...

The body type, physical attributes, is a very common 'tell' as well...what it really means is that the coach doesn't value the internal drive, the field IQ, the technical disciplines, the 'big-game' nerves...etc that a player may bring to the table as well as such physical attributes...maybe because they haven't done enough homework on the specific recruit, maybe because they simply don't value such attributes as much as more obvious physical attributes. Either way, the coach isn't communicating what makes the player special in ways she can actually control and take pride in, as physical is genetic...am I proud that I'm tall, or am I proud that I'm tough under pressure? Do you see me coach?

Good luck to your daughter.