The country that was

[MDlaxfan76]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

The union is demanding 46% pay increase and 40 hours pay for a 32 hour work week plus they are demanding a pension plan be reinstated. The Union boss seems to be holding his grounds to these demands. IMO if he could get his people a 20% raise he should be very happy. The only thing for certain with a strike is that neither side wins. This is an odd type of strike. It only involves certain UAW members at certain manufacturing facilities. As of yet it does not include all members of the UAW. That would be devastating for the big 3 automakers. I hope this strike is resolved ASAP.

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

The union is demanding 46% pay increase and 40 hours pay for a 32 hour work week plus they are demanding a pension plan be reinstated. The Union boss seems to be holding his grounds to these demands. IMO if he could get his people a 20% raise he should be very happy. The only thing for certain with a strike is that neither side wins. This is an odd type of strike. It only involves certain UAW members at certain manufacturing facilities. As of yet it does not include all members of the UAW. That would be devastating for the big 3 automakers. I hope this strike is resolved ASAP.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/uaw-st ... -32-hours/

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

Except Ford. Never forget that Ford was the only automaker that LIU figure their balance sheet in 05-07 by levering everything and going through painful restructuring during good times to get ahead of the problems the industry had. Not fair to lump them in and if anything.
They paid a heavy price vis a vis their competitors for doing the right thing the last decade. Especially compared with the vast mismanagement at GM.

Bottom line is the 32 hour workweek demand is a massive joke. Forget the combo side for a minute. That’s a deal killer on every level for these businesses:

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

[a fan]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

If the paid had gone DOWN, adjusted for inflation over the last 40 years? You bet we could afford that.

Now add in automation: how many workers does it take to produce a car in 2023 vs. 1980?

Our employees have received MORE than a 46% raise over just ten years.

The part that's unsustainable? Health Care. Costs have tripled in 20 years.

[PizzaSnake]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

If the paid had gone DOWN, adjusted for inflation over the last 40 years? You bet we could afford that.

Now add in automation: how many workers does it take to produce a car in 2023 vs. 1980?

Our employees have received MORE than a 46% raise over just ten years.

The part that's unsustainable? Health Care. Costs have tripled in 20 years.

Umm, exactly. Want to compete with foreign (excepting China and its serfs) makers? Decouple health care from employment. Duh. Want a more flexible, relocatable workforce? See above?

Now, if the obvious course isn't taken, then maybe, just maybe all the shite dribbling from management's mouth over the years is well, shite. In fact, the large corporations like having their boot on the necks of their slaves, er, workers... Another reason they love some illegal labor -- suppresses wages across the board. If health benes had been separated decades ago the issue of restoration of same for retirees wouldn't be an issue...

The real question is how the average worker can be so obtuse and unable to realize their are getting violated and act accordingly -- vote for politicians whose clearly stated policy position is to pursue those goals. But hey, I guess being distracted by shiny objects like children's literature and bathroom choice (an issue addressed simply by spending some cash and converting all bathrooms to single occupancy instead of the prison-like gang facilities...) is what's more important to folks (idiots). Too dumb to come in out of the rain, I guess.

[youthathletics]

It would be interesting to see how others countries stack up side by side vs the US, meaning....

In countries with a more socialized HC system, do the dr's see less patients (or do people go to the dr's less often) vs. life expectancy of that country. And then, based on the outcome compare that with other criteria like, dietary lifestyle, excercise, holiday's taken, etc. Maybe we go to the Dr's too often, then they find a some ailment to set the hook and they have a revenue stream for life.

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

If the paid had gone DOWN, adjusted for inflation over the last 40 years? You bet we could afford that.

Now add in automation: how many workers does it take to produce a car in 2023 vs. 1980?

Our employees have received MORE than a 46% raise over just ten years.

The part that's unsustainable? Health Care. Costs have tripled in 20 years.

I don't know how any agreement with the UAW will be structured. I do have one question for you. Could your business afford a 46% payroll increase if it took effect next month? I listened for years about my boss complaining about the problems his payroll budget imposed on him. BTW do you offer your employees a 32 work week and pay them for 40 hours??

[MDlaxfan76]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

Except Ford. Never forget that Ford was the only automaker that LIU figure their balance sheet in 05-07 by levering everything and going through painful restructuring during good times to get ahead of the problems the industry had. Not fair to lump them in and if anything.
They paid a heavy price vis a vis their competitors for doing the right thing the last decade. Especially compared with the vast mismanagement at GM.

Bottom line is the 32 hour workweek demand is a massive joke. Forget the combo side for a minute. That’s a deal killer on every level for these businesses:

I agree on both fronts. 32 is unworkable in the real world, but pay rate is quite different. The other over demand is some of the work rules about roles...don't want to go back to rigid, 'that's not my job' mentality as that's death to competing in the real world.

HOWEVER, Ford CEO made in excess of $20 million last year. $484 million in stock buybacks last year.
Other 2 were even higher.

I notice that cradle didn't bother to do the homework to answer my questions.

So, much higher pay rates is actually a fair ask as is the notion that the EV plants will have comparable pay rates as that's directly cannibalizing the current jobs.

[Farfromgeneva]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

[PizzaSnake]

It would be interesting to see how others countries stack up side by side vs the US, meaning....

In countries with a more socialized HC system, do the dr's see less patients (or do people go to the dr's less often) vs. life expectancy of that country. And then, based on the outcome compare that with other criteria like, dietary lifestyle, excercise, holiday's taken, etc. Maybe we go to the Dr's too often, then they find a some ailment to set the hook and they have a revenue stream for life.

"In 1980, life expectancy at birth in the U.S. and in comparably large and wealthy countries was similar, but over recent decades, life expectancy has improved by much more in peer nations than it has in the U.S. The COVID-19 pandemic has increased mortality and premature death rates in the U.S. by more than it did in most peer countries, widening a gap that already existed before the pandemic.

This chart collection examines how life expectancy in the U.S. compares to that of other similarly large and wealthy countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Using provisional 2021 estimates, we also assess how the COVID-19 pandemic has affected life expectancy in the U.S. compared to peer countries.

We find life expectancy in the U.S. fell by 2.7 years from 2019 to 2021, whereas in peer countries’ life expectancies fell by an average of just 0.2 years in this period. COVID-19 has erased two decades of life expectancy growth in the U.S., whereas the average life expectancy for comparable countries has decreased only marginally, to 2018 levels."

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/

[MDlaxfan76]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

I think the point is that they've taken the squeeze for years, more than a decade, this is re-orienting to closer to what it would have been without major prior concessions...I think the companies should be happy to pay the higher rates, but maintain the ability to actually manage for high productivity. Then everyone has the same fundamental interest in making better cars/trucks that compete successfully in the marketplace.

[Farfromgeneva]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

I think the point is that they've taken the squeeze for years, more than a decade, this is re-orienting to closer to what it would have been without major prior concessions...I think the companies should be happy to pay the higher rates, but maintain the ability to actually manage for high productivity. Then everyone has the same fundamental interest in making better cars/trucks that compete successfully in the marketplace.

See cradles absurd and useless question about a 46% raise overnight. You’re post got in between ours.

Still pensions and 32hr workweek are non starters

[MDlaxfan76]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

I think the point is that they've taken the squeeze for years, more than a decade, this is re-orienting to closer to what it would have been without major prior concessions...I think the companies should be happy to pay the higher rates, but maintain the ability to actually manage for high productivity. Then everyone has the same fundamental interest in making better cars/trucks that compete successfully in the marketplace.

See cradles absurd and useless question about a 46% raise overnight. You’re post got in between ours.

Still pensions and 32hr workweek are non starters

ahh, yes, phased. That's certainly what I'd negotiate as management...and I'd particularly focus on maintaining flexibility and work rules that foster a high productivity output.

[NattyBohChamps04]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

I think the point is that they've taken the squeeze for years, more than a decade, this is re-orienting to closer to what it would have been without major prior concessions...I think the companies should be happy to pay the higher rates, but maintain the ability to actually manage for high productivity. Then everyone has the same fundamental interest in making better cars/trucks that compete successfully in the marketplace.

See cradles absurd and useless question about a 46% raise overnight. You’re post got in between ours.

Still pensions and 32hr workweek are non starters

Are companies getting that much more productivity from their workers after 32 hours? I see a drop off in my employees.

In 1791, carpenters in Philly went on strike to lower the work day to 10 hours. The first general strike in America happened in 1835 to lower the work day to 10 hours.

Funny that you mentioned Ford as they went from a 9 hour work day to 8 hours in 1914 (also doubled pay) and productivity and profit margins went up.

We finally got a country-wide 8 hour work day in 1916 (at least for hourly) that became more strictly enforced in 1937.

It's not unreasonable to fight for a 6.4 hour work day. Especially as companies are raking in the profits and workers generally aren't seeing a similar bump.

[MDlaxfan76]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

I think the point is that they've taken the squeeze for years, more than a decade, this is re-orienting to closer to what it would have been without major prior concessions...I think the companies should be happy to pay the higher rates, but maintain the ability to actually manage for high productivity. Then everyone has the same fundamental interest in making better cars/trucks that compete successfully in the marketplace.

See cradles absurd and useless question about a 46% raise overnight. You’re post got in between ours.

Still pensions and 32hr workweek are non starters

Are companies getting that much more productivity from their workers after 32 hours? I see a drop off in my employees.

In 1791, carpenters in Philly went on strike to lower the work day to 10 hours. The first general strike in America happened in 1835 to lower the work day to 10 hours.

Funny that you mentioned Ford as they went from a 9 hour work day to 8 hours in 1914 (also doubled pay) and productivity and profit margins went up.

We finally got a country-wide 8 hour work day in 1916 (at least for hourly) that became more strictly enforced in 1937.

It's not unreasonable to fight for a 6.4 hour work day. Especially as companies are raking in the profits and workers generally aren't seeing a similar bump.

I don't have an issue with all sorts of work day concepts. They can work and we shouldn't have an issue with experimenting. But it doesn't make sense to pay for 40 if it's only 32. Pay more per hour, sure, but pay for the actual work time if it's an hourly job. And don't expect OT if you want to work more hours. Otherwise, go salary and expect 32+ hours.

I think that making sure that less than 40 but 32 or more doesn't lose any benefits is a different matter; want to consider 32 FT, ok by me...in whatever the situation, it's important to be able to have skilled employees be able to do multiple jobs depending on the demand for various tasks at any given time. And for peak demand to not be a big problem/cost in having enough workers to get the production completed well.

There are all sorts of benefits to productivity of having workers cross trained and able to work flexibly, as they bring ideas and perspectives that might not otherwise have been considered...if we do it this way, it makes the next task easier/faster etc...

Stay away from rigidity.

Of course, good management respects line workers and looks for them to be sources of work innovation...that's the culture you want. Bad management can crush that and unions can play back with their own rigid demands. Cycling towards non-competitiveness...

[youthathletics]

It would be interesting to see how others countries stack up side by side vs the US, meaning....

In countries with a more socialized HC system, do the dr's see less patients (or do people go to the dr's less often) vs. life expectancy of that country. And then, based on the outcome compare that with other criteria like, dietary lifestyle, excercise, holiday's taken, etc. Maybe we go to the Dr's too often, then they find a some ailment to set the hook and they have a revenue stream for life.

"In 1980, life expectancy at birth in the U.S. and in comparably large and wealthy countries was similar, but over recent decades, life expectancy has improved by much more in peer nations than it has in the U.S. The COVID-19 pandemic has increased mortality and premature death rates in the U.S. by more than it did in most peer countries, widening a gap that already existed before the pandemic.

This chart collection examines how life expectancy in the U.S. compares to that of other similarly large and wealthy countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Using provisional 2021 estimates, we also assess how the COVID-19 pandemic has affected life expectancy in the U.S. compared to peer countries.

We find life expectancy in the U.S. fell by 2.7 years from 2019 to 2021, whereas in peer countries’ life expectancies fell by an average of just 0.2 years in this period. COVID-19 has erased two decades of life expectancy growth in the U.S., whereas the average life expectancy for comparable countries has decreased only marginally, to 2018 levels."

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/

Which leads to my initial concern. I am not so sure our issue is with health care, rather, it's personal care. And, when we do get health care...we are fleeced in to the system.