The country that was

[Typical Lax Dad]

It would be interesting to see how others countries stack up side by side vs the US, meaning....

In countries with a more socialized HC system, do the dr's see less patients (or do people go to the dr's less often) vs. life expectancy of that country. And then, based on the outcome compare that with other criteria like, dietary lifestyle, excercise, holiday's taken, etc. Maybe we go to the Dr's too often, then they find a some ailment to set the hook and they have a revenue stream for life.

"In 1980, life expectancy at birth in the U.S. and in comparably large and wealthy countries was similar, but over recent decades, life expectancy has improved by much more in peer nations than it has in the U.S. The COVID-19 pandemic has increased mortality and premature death rates in the U.S. by more than it did in most peer countries, widening a gap that already existed before the pandemic.

This chart collection examines how life expectancy in the U.S. compares to that of other similarly large and wealthy countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Using provisional 2021 estimates, we also assess how the COVID-19 pandemic has affected life expectancy in the U.S. compared to peer countries.

We find life expectancy in the U.S. fell by 2.7 years from 2019 to 2021, whereas in peer countries’ life expectancies fell by an average of just 0.2 years in this period. COVID-19 has erased two decades of life expectancy growth in the U.S., whereas the average life expectancy for comparable countries has decreased only marginally, to 2018 levels."

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... countries/

Facts

[Farfromgeneva]

That kind of increase isn’t implemented overnight. Those things are phased in.

In fact using Google it might be one of the easiest pieces of information to find. The ask is over FOUR years. So 11.5%/annum straight line but the way compounding works it would be a lower CAGR.

I think the point is that they've taken the squeeze for years, more than a decade, this is re-orienting to closer to what it would have been without major prior concessions...I think the companies should be happy to pay the higher rates, but maintain the ability to actually manage for high productivity. Then everyone has the same fundamental interest in making better cars/trucks that compete successfully in the marketplace.

See cradles absurd and useless question about a 46% raise overnight. You’re post got in between ours.

Still pensions and 32hr workweek are non starters

Are companies getting that much more productivity from their workers after 32 hours? I see a drop off in my employees.

In 1791, carpenters in Philly went on strike to lower the work day to 10 hours. The first general strike in America happened in 1835 to lower the work day to 10 hours.

Funny that you mentioned Ford as they went from a 9 hour work day to 8 hours in 1914 (also doubled pay) and productivity and profit margins went up.

We finally got a country-wide 8 hour work day in 1916 (at least for hourly) that became more strictly enforced in 1937.

It's not unreasonable to fight for a 6.4 hour work day. Especially as companies are raking in the profits and workers generally aren't seeing a similar bump.

You’re really paying for an “average” hourly productivity already. That includes some slack built in even if not quantified.

And since 1916 in those 107 years nothing changed.

Look it’s simply not going to happen anytime soon. It’s relationship to other considerations aside, the fact that there’s too much interest in not setting that baseline not to mention the perception of Europe’s failures that it’s just not even a negotiating point. Nosy wants to codify that as a structure. It’s a throwaway or will be.

My business is different, only maybe 5-6 of my 20ish years working have I been a fiduciary or used balance sheet (capital) to generate revenues. It’s all labor in my world generally so not a comparable but there’s plenty of productivity and value being generated past 8 hours/day that I have and continue to see. It’s more about pacing the day than the hours.

I don’t have a strong opinion in the merits of what they should get and the cash comp seems fine and likely to be achieved but the asking so big is more about what EV manufacturing is going to do to the base. It’s a fight over something more existential than it’s reductively presented as a standard labor dispute. They feel like now is the time they have to plant a flag though I’m not sure who they represent, current or future members, in their fight. (That’s meaningful).

We will see how it plays out but a couple of the asking points just aren’t happening here.

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

[PizzaSnake]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Two lions?

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Two lions?

True that but I know one thing for sure in this regard... Auto companies must budget for parts using a business model of how many units they plan to produce in a year. If they expect to use a million widgets then I'm certain they will budget for a million widgets. The only thing I'm not certain of is do they lock that price in for a certain period of time? I know where I worked at Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola overtime when it came in huge chunks could drive a department manager crazy. His boss didn't want to hear why, the only concern was why so much overtime? Now if the job was not completed to the customers satisfaction, that was unacceptable too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[MDlaxfan76]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Depending on what the new wage structure will be those numbers could increase considerably. I doubt the percentages quoted only because I don't see the automakers being all that excited about disclosing what their actual labor costs are. From what I gather that is the kind of information they would not willingly share with any outside source. The reason is obvious. Do you think the folks that run Ford would want the folks that run Chevrolet to know exactly what their labor costs are? I bet they don't.

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

[PizzaSnake]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Ah, so here’s where it gets interesting. Are people going to support domestic production, “buy ‘Murican,” or are they talking through there hats?

[cradleandshoot]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Ah, so here’s where it gets interesting. Are people going to support domestic production, “buy ‘Murican,” or are they talking through there hats?

My wife and I both drive Toyotas that were made in the USA. I guess that includes manufactured in the USA with international components. Even made in the USA will involve international components. I wonder how international components come into play for a toothbrush made in America?? Ya really need international components to make a toothbrush. I'm guessing that is all a part of what a global economy is all about?

[MDlaxfan76]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Depending on what the new wage structure will be those numbers could increase considerably. I doubt the percentages quoted only because I don't see the automakers being all that excited about disclosing what their actual labor costs are. From what I gather that is the kind of information they would not willingly share with any outside source. The reason is obvious. Do you think the folks that run Ford would want the folks that run Chevrolet to know exactly what their labor costs are? I bet they don't.

The analysis of that range is from numerous sources. Labor continues to decrease as a percentage of cost with automation and labor rates have been stagnant since the financial collapse. The range depends on the complexity of the car and the overall expense of the car. Super costly cars have higher cost components and relatively lower labor, except for the high customization models where labor goes up. But the costs in that also go up in supply chain management, parts inventory, etc, given the necessity to manage so many moving pieces.

[MDlaxfan76]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Of course, the unions would say the companies don't need to be as profitable as they've been and that they don't need to be doing stock buybacks, so not necessarily all gonna be passed through to consumers.

I suspect the bump will be more like 30% instead of the 15% being offered by car companies. That's the bump the CEO's got last year in their own compensation...

[a fan]

I don't know how any agreement with the UAW will be structured. I do have one question for you. Could your business afford a 46% payroll increase if it took effect next month? I listened for years about my boss complaining about the problems his payroll budget imposed on him. BTW do you offer your employees a 32 work week and pay them for 40 hours??

Again, if my company had automation advances, and had suppressed wages without giving cost of living increases for the last ten years?

Yes! Without any problem.

They work 40 hours per week, and get about a week and a half from national holidays, plus much more vacation that's based on how long they've been with us.

We're looking into 4 day work weeks, ten hours per day. We haven't decided as a team if we want to do that or not.

In manufacturing, many times you can get more done in (4) 10 hour days than you can in (5) 8 hour days. Set up and tear down takes time.

[SCLaxAttack]

I don't know how any agreement with the UAW will be structured. I do have one question for you. Could your business afford a 46% payroll increase if it took effect next month? I listened for years about my boss complaining about the problems his payroll budget imposed on him. BTW do you offer your employees a 32 work week and pay them for 40 hours??

Again, if my company had automation advances, and had suppressed wages without giving cost of living increases for the last ten years?

Yes! Without any problem.

They work 40 hours per week, and get about a week and a half from national holidays, plus much more vacation that's based on how long they've been with us.

We're looking into 4 day work weeks, ten hours per day. We haven't decided as a team if we want to do that or not.

In manufacturing, many times you can get more done in (4) 10 hour days than you can in (5) 8 hour days. Set up and tear down takes time..

10 hrs/day is great if you're not running 24 hours. The math would work better with three 12 hour shifts if you were.

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Ah, so here’s where it gets interesting. Are people going to support domestic production, “buy ‘Murican,” or are they talking through there hats?

What’s American these days? Lot of production in SC and GA is foreign manufacturers who take the WIP components and finish here. I believe I read some Asian automakers produce more as a % of the total here in the US than our “big three”.

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Depending on what the new wage structure will be those numbers could increase considerably. I doubt the percentages quoted only because I don't see the automakers being all that excited about disclosing what their actual labor costs are. From what I gather that is the kind of information they would not willingly share with any outside source. The reason is obvious. Do you think the folks that run Ford would want the folks that run Chevrolet to know exactly what their labor costs are? I bet they don't.

It’s clear you aren’t familiar with the SEC registration act, blue sky laws or regulation FD as it relates to disclosures for public companies.

Believe what you want. The information is publicly available. Easy enough to go to Ford and GMs investor relations page, open a few Qs, a K and a investor presentation and find anything you want basically.

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Depending on what the new wage structure will be those numbers could increase considerably. I doubt the percentages quoted only because I don't see the automakers being all that excited about disclosing what their actual labor costs are. From what I gather that is the kind of information they would not willingly share with any outside source. The reason is obvious. Do you think the folks that run Ford would want the folks that run Chevrolet to know exactly what their labor costs are? I bet they don't.

The analysis of that range is from numerous sources. Labor continues to decrease as a percentage of cost with automation and labor rates have been stagnant since the financial collapse. The range depends on the complexity of the car and the overall expense of the car. Super costly cars have higher cost components and relatively lower labor, except for the high customization models where labor goes up. But the costs in that also go up in supply chain management, parts inventory, etc, given the necessity to manage so many moving pieces.

Materials like steel and related still run like near 50% of the cost.

And we’re presuming this is strictly COGS not % of rev on an enterpris eh which would include S,G&A etc below the gross margin line correct?

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Of course, the unions would say the companies don't need to be as profitable as they've been and that they don't need to be doing stock buybacks, so not necessarily all gonna be passed through to consumers.

I suspect the bump will be more like 30% instead of the 15% being offered by car companies. That's the bump the CEO's got last year in their own compensation...

Yes my %s were for the Cradle analysis of how much car costs would go up without, like, doing the kiddie math involved.

And 30% sounds right since you’re also basically splitting the difference between the “bid” (15%) and the “ask” (46%) which comes up at 30.5% and is what mediators often do as they get paid to King Solomon disagreements in a way AI could probably replicate.

Buybacks are fine if you’re actually reducing share count. If it’s just to offset dilution to Mgt then it’s backdoor comp for them.

How much unions opinions on the level of profitability is appropriate seems irrelevant to me. We both know this world doesn’t revolve around “fair market value” but you get what you can negotiate and ask for.

[MDlaxfan76]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Of course, the unions would say the companies don't need to be as profitable as they've been and that they don't need to be doing stock buybacks, so not necessarily all gonna be passed through to consumers.

I suspect the bump will be more like 30% instead of the 15% being offered by car companies. That's the bump the CEO's got last year in their own compensation...

Yes my %s were for the Cradle analysis of how much car costs would go up without, like, doing the kiddie math involved.

And 30% sounds right since you’re also basically splitting the difference between the “bid” (15%) and the “ask” (46%) which comes up at 30.5% and is what mediators often do as they get paid to King Solomon disagreements in a way AI could probably replicate.

Buybacks are fine if you’re actually reducing share count. If it’s just to offset dilution to Mgt then it’s backdoor comp for them.

How much unions opinions on the level of profitability is appropriate seems irrelevant to me. We both know this world doesn’t revolve around “fair market value” but you get what you can negotiate and ask for.

yes, but when there's excess cash sloshing around and CEO's are getting paid 300X of the workers, the ask is much more straightforward...there's actually an ability to afford the compromise.

[Farfromgeneva]

There are many posters on this forum that own their own business. So what say you? Could your companies afford a 46% pay raise raise across the board for every employee?? Would that force you to raise your prices?

They're being offered a 15% increase, apparently.

What was the pay increase last year for the top 3 CEO's, their top management teams?
What was the profitability last year of the automakers?...these are companies that received government support and government negotiated major labor concessions a decade ago. How much money did they use last year in stock buybacks?

Personally, I think there are some major pay rate adjustments that need to be made. But some of the work rule demands would be a mistake. Pay rate is another matter.

The biggest conundrum is the EV issue...EV's will mean many fewer jobs...and apparently the pay rates are $18/hour, part time...whereas regular auto worker pay is $30+.

To the question about businesses, if my top pay people are making $20+ million, and I'm making major shareholder distributions and stock buybacks, my business can afford to pay line workers really, really well.

What were the real wage $ in 1980?

Found it: In 1980, General Motors reported that its average cost of hourly labor in the United States was $18.44. At Ford, where basic pay scales are essentially the same, the hourly cost was $19.99.Jun 3, 1981

For those who might be confused:
$18 translates to $67+ today.

Yep

That kind of employee overhead cost can only be paid by increasing the price of the vehicles. IMO that would be catastrophic to the auto industry. If the automakers can find a way to swallow that cost I would be damn impressed. I do know that the UAW union will be compensated rather nicely in the increase in union dues paid by their members. How ever this strike is resolved will still require hefty increases in the price to the consumer of a new vehicle. I plan on driving my Toyota Corolla until the wheels fall off or gasoline is outlawed.

Can ONLY be paid by raising car prices?

You sure about that? Ever heard of terms like: productivity, efficiency, optimization, commodity costs, process improvement, technology or substitution of materials?

That is what one of the Big 3 CEOs said on TV just yesterday. His claim was that wage scale was not tenable and would destroy the business in a relatively short period of time. I'm not a financial guy like you but I'm fairly certain labor costs are the lions share of production costs in the auto industry. The expense for purchasing parts has to be just as expensive.

Labor is about 10-16% of the total costs of a car.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ ... rs-n716001#

Think it was like low 20s, 15-20yrs ago if I recall correctly.

So if nothing else changed over the 4yr period and the companies had no choice but to pass through 100% of the increase it would mean over 4yrs cars would increase in cost by 4.6%-7.4%. 1.15%-1.85% per year.

Of course, the unions would say the companies don't need to be as profitable as they've been and that they don't need to be doing stock buybacks, so not necessarily all gonna be passed through to consumers.

I suspect the bump will be more like 30% instead of the 15% being offered by car companies. That's the bump the CEO's got last year in their own compensation...

Yes my %s were for the Cradle analysis of how much car costs would go up without, like, doing the kiddie math involved.

And 30% sounds right since you’re also basically splitting the difference between the “bid” (15%) and the “ask” (46%) which comes up at 30.5% and is what mediators often do as they get paid to King Solomon disagreements in a way AI could probably replicate.

Buybacks are fine if you’re actually reducing share count. If it’s just to offset dilution to Mgt then it’s backdoor comp for them.

How much unions opinions on the level of profitability is appropriate seems irrelevant to me. We both know this world doesn’t revolve around “fair market value” but you get what you can negotiate and ask for.

yes, but when there's excess cash sloshing around and CEO's are getting paid 300X of the workers, the ask is much more straightforward...there's actually an ability to afford the compromise.

I’m fine with them getting an increase and even a meaningful one. Even with being taught the whole “stakeholder model” in grad school (in the 2000s long before this prior decade and millennials view that they discovered this as if it hasn’t always been a consideration in the “G” in ESG), but some random Union leader opining on what the appropriate level of profitability is for owners without any analysis, or other rigor beyond looking in their pockets, is fairly worthless analytically. So hope they get their dough and then they go perform. And
if they get what they want and don’t live up to their end then they shouldn’t complain if they lose their jobs down the road.

Addressing the agency issue is separate and shouldn’t be tethered to employee (Mgt are still employees BTW- focus should be on the dislocation between boards, institutional share vote holders as fiduciaries and shareholders). They should be distinct discussions to be addressed. Until the incentive structure changes between shareholders, their advisors and fiduciaries and the agents/Mgt for companies the discussion of labor vs Mgt comp will never end and need fairly irrelevant. They need to be more serious about the analysis to have that opinion men’s much.

Excess cash-is that a balance sheet comment (snapshot in time) or cash flow meaning profitability comment? Could also pay down debt, fund more capex or r&d (the latter two would also add more work and value for employees long term and the first would build a more resilient balance sheet so those jobs still exist in 15-20yrs)

My view: pay them enough to have a net increase over inflation the next 2-3yrs to catch up for the mess that 20-22 was. Broaden other protections/Comp or Permanent status levels at 30-32hrs. Tell them to eat s**t when it comes to 32hr workweek for 40hrs of pay or even min expected standard workweek. Pensions: ignore the request was even
Made.