Coaching Carousel 2022-2023

[Lacrossefan2023]

To answer the one person's questions about the William and Mary Head Coach: Yes the assistant coaches did tell me why they were leaving, yes I've visited a practice and I've also heard from players and parents as well as observing on my own. I'm not sure why you would jump to me obviously being biased. It appears that whoever you are you are feeling personally attacked by my comments. I was responding to a post about a girl at a lacrosse camp noticing that there had been a revolving door of assistant coaches. And one of the responses was to not read too much into it. To be honest a bunch of the parents and I laughed when we read that bc we all know that there is a lot to read into it. And how do you know if I've ever "visited the building or spoken with the coach" ??? Such an odd response.

[LaxPundit07]

Assistant coaches airing out the programs dirty laundry to disgruntled parents says a lot about those assistant coaches and their lack of professionalism. It also puts you in a bad spot. Your kid plays there. Now you are telling your kid, and the world apparently via this message board about the dysfunction of your program. How is any of this helping?

I wasn’t offended and feeling attacked by your original posts at all. I don’t know the WM coach and I don’t know her assistants. I have no connection to the program.

I have experience as a Division 1 head coach. If my assistants were wining to parents about the state of the program, they would have been fired on the spot. That is the height of dysfunction. If they truly were concerned with the state of the program, they would have aired that out with the head coach. And if that fell on deaf ears, they could run it up the department ladder. Their airing of grievances to parents is immature and misguided. Particularly if they care about the program. Now this information is being passed around tailgates, being posted on message boards, and circling the club circuit rumor mills. Completely counterproductive.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

To answer the one person's questions about the William and Mary Head Coach: Yes the assistant coaches did tell me why they were leaving, yes I've visited a practice and I've also heard from players and parents as well as observing on my own. I'm not sure why you would jump to me obviously being biased. It appears that whoever you are you are feeling personally attacked by my comments. I was responding to a post about a girl at a lacrosse camp noticing that there had been a revolving door of assistant coaches. And one of the responses was to not read too much into it. To be honest a bunch of the parents and I laughed when we read that bc we all know that there is a lot to read into it. And how do you know if I've ever "visited the building or spoken with the coach" ??? Such an odd response.

Assistant coaches airing out the programs dirty laundry to disgruntled parents says a lot about those assistant coaches and their lack of professionalism. It also puts you in a bad spot. Your kid plays there. Now you are telling your kid, and the world apparently via this message board about the dysfunction of your program. How is any of this helping?

I have experience as a Division 1 head coach. If my assistants were wining to parents about the state of the program, they would have been fired on the spot. That is the height of dysfunction. If they truly were concerned with the state of the program, they would have aired that out with the head coach. And if that fell on deaf ears, they could run it up the department ladder. Their airing of grievances to parents is immature and misguided. Particularly if they care about the program. Now this information is being passed around tailgates, being posted on message boards, and circling the club circuit rumor mills. Completely counterproductive.

I think it helps and is productive in that attention to a problem is being raised to the end that it might be solved. I don't know any of the folks involved but I have interacted with a lot of different people over the decades. Human beings are incredibly complex and do a whole host of different things for a whole host of different reasons in stressful/dysfunctional situations.

First off--confronting a domineering bully (if that's how she's being dysfunctional) isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe they tried tiptoeing around the edges and mentioning an issue with the head coach and got shot down. Maybe they don't do well with conflict and tension. Maybe they felt a closed door from those above the head coach and chose to just leave instead of stay and continue dealing with the tension and stress of having a dysfunctional boss.

Could also be helpful for who might read these posts about W&M because change to the dysfunctional situation possibly follows. Maybe some higher-ups from W&M read the comments in this area of the thread and start sniffing around and making inquiries. Maybe the head coach herself reads them and is jolted into changing the way she deals with others. Maybe she gets fired if the alleged behavior proves true and thus the staff and team can sing a rousing round of "Ding-dong, the witch is dead! Which old witch? The wicked witch! Ding-dong, the wicked witch is dead!"

Also--note that these assistant coaches who shared with the parent were outgoing staff. That's a lot different than if they were staying and sharing things with parents.

"If my assistants were wining to parents about the state of the program, they would have been fired on the spot. That is the height of dysfunction."

This seems telling. But also it inaccurately characterizes the parent's statement. The specific issue is the toxic head coach, not the state of the program. In the grand scheme, yes, they are closely related. But to fire assistant coaches instead of having a meeting first to try to get to the bottom of the issue sounds a lot more counterproductive to me. Also--a raft of assumptions were made about why the parent posted what they did. How does that help?

I'm sticking my nose in here because I hate the way some new members are attacked and bullied on these boards. That's also dysfunctional and counterproductive. I think it's damning that the entire assistant coaching staff has changed the last two seasons. Lends credibility to the parent and their assertion that something really wrong is happening at W&M with the head coach.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Certainly an area in which reasonable people can disagree. But I kind of agree with ONW in this respect: how else do people find out about this sort of thing? Much is made of the "culture of a program," as one of the intangibles that a kid -- let's say, a 17 year old -- is looking for in a program. The stakes are high: commitment of the parents' and the kids' resources, significant tuition and related expenses, potentially four years of college, where the lacrosse team will be absolutely pivotal to the experience that is, after all, once in a lifetime. I do cavil about criticism of the players -- they are college kids and athletes, and in most respects are simply trying their best and, if criticized, failing in someone observer's eyes. These people are adults, employed by a university and HC who are selling something. Prospective buyers should know as much as possible about the product before buying in.

[forthelaxofit]

Regarding coaching turnover at William and Mary, it was announced this week a coach who was there from 20-22 and left for one year to coach at her alma mater has just returned. That announcement was posted in one of the other subject categories on this forum. I am not saying if there are issues at the school or not, but I don't think that coach would return to an environment that she at least thought was toxic. Who would?

[ultravisitor]

Regarding coaching turnover at William and Mary, it was announced this week a coach who was there from 20-22 and left for one year to coach at her alma mater has just returned. That announcement was posted in one of the other subject categories on this forum. I am not saying if there are issues at the school or not, but I don't think that coach would return to an environment that she at least thought was toxic. Who would?

Maybe that person didn't feel the environment was toxic. But that's just one person. I think it's easy to find one person in any toxic organization who holds the opinion that the organization is just fine.

[Relax77]

Guess I’ll add my unasked two cents in here. I’ll use the old adage. Just because you have 100 doctors in a room, doesn’t mean they’re all good. Just because you have 100 financial planners in a room, doesn’t mean they’re all good. And just because there is 120 HC in D1 college lacrosse, doesn’t mean they are all good or good people. So certainly there can be something going on. Just look at Coastal and Drexel in the past. Coaches are human beings not a bunch of robots. It can happen.

This time around My daughter and I personally met with 6 head coaches. I wouldn’t let my enemy’s kid in the care of one of them. Totally egotistical and nasty. And this is a dual interview where they are trying to entice your kid to come there. Imagine when they get there! They did offer, we politely declined.

That being said. How is a kid supposed to know if the culture and the HC is a mess? Are they supposed to waste a full year of their college experience to find out? You have to rely on things like this. Is it always accurate, of course not. Is it probably his kid doesn’t get playing time. Yeah. Most likely. Doherty can’t keep assistants either, does that mean the culture at PSU is horrible? No. But if Asst coaches legitimately left PSU, trashing them on the way out. I would be concerned and look into it.

[ultravisitor]

Penn State is a very interesting example to bring up regarding the athletic culture of a school at large. I would never let my child consider that place.

[Andersen]

Penn State is a very interesting example to bring up regarding the athletic culture of a school at large. I would never let my child consider that place.

Any reasons, examples or evidence?

[ultravisitor]

Penn State is a very interesting example to bring up regarding the athletic culture of a school at large. I would never let my child consider that place.

Any reasons, examples or evidence?

The reaction to the Freeh report on Jerry Sandusky and everything surrounding the situation and Paterno is very well documented. Completely indefensible, disgusting, and shameful.

https://youtu.be/l5sud3fVGZU?si=zCcEq4qnPhbOqa0n

[Andersen]

I'm completely with you on Sandusky and Paterno, just wondering if you were seeing more recent things.

[forthelaxofit]

Regarding coaching turnover at William and Mary, it was announced this week a coach who was there from 20-22 and left for one year to coach at her alma mater has just returned. That announcement was posted in one of the other subject categories on this forum. I am not saying if there are issues at the school or not, but I don't think that coach would return to an environment that she at least thought was toxic. Who would?

Maybe that person didn't feel the environment was toxic. But that's just one person. I think it's easy to find one person in any toxic organization who holds the opinion that the organization is just fine.

The claims made on William & Mary have been about revolving door turnover and the toxic environment. Not my words but in the posts

“there are very specific reasons why the assistant coaches have been like a revolving door over the last few years. And it’s not good. The head coach has created a toxic environment and is impossible to work with and for. “

“dysfunction that has created the turnover over the last few years.”

Maybe there is an issue, but maybe there isn’t. You don’t know, and neither do I. But when one of coaches used in the “revolving door” claim due to dysfunction and toxic environment returns in a year, that contradicts the “years” of revolving door piece.

[Relax77]

Bottom line. At W&M…. Are the kids complaining? Or just the coaches? That’s what really matters. Sometime there is legitimate problems ie Coastal three years ago and the AD acts on it. Other times kids complain and nothing happens. Ie Colgate. Not sure what’s going on at that program. But once again. That’s what I believe is important. How os ot for the kids.

[LaxDadMax]

Bottom line. At W&M…. Are the kids complaining? Or just the coaches? That’s what really matters. Sometime there is legitimate problems ie Coastal three years ago and the AD acts on it. Other times kids complain and nothing happens. Ie Colgate. Not sure what’s going on at that program. But once again. That’s what I believe is important. How os ot for the kids.

The biggest challenge at Colgate is they haven't had an AD for a year. (And from what I heard no-one wants the job. Women's lax isn't the only sport where they have a coaching issues)

Likely admin just doesn't want to get involved.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Regarding coaching turnover at William and Mary, it was announced this week a coach who was there from 20-22 and left for one year to coach at her alma mater has just returned. That announcement was posted in one of the other subject categories on this forum. I am not saying if there are issues at the school or not, but I don't think that coach would return to an environment that she at least thought was toxic. Who would?

Maybe she was promised the head coaching position down the road as the dangled carrot. Who knows.

viewtopic.php?p=493759#p493759

[[email protected]]

"First off--confronting a domineering bully (if that's how she's being dysfunctional) isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe they tried tiptoeing around the edges and mentioning an issue with the head coach and got shot down. Maybe they don't do well with conflict and tension. Maybe they felt a closed door from those above the head coach and chose to just leave instead of stay and continue dealing with the tension and stress of having a dysfunctional boss."

Thank you for THIS. After many, many attempts to resolve privately with the coach and the AD, I personally felt like this was possibly the only way to get through. My observation of the Athletic Dept. is that their highest priority is the fundraising and if she's doing that successfully they will let these other "less important" things slide. Also, I would have very much appreciated someone letting me know about these kinds of environments when my daughter was getting recruited. Very helpful to get insiders perspectives. And as for the assistant coaches being disrespectful- they were abused and saw that the girls were being bullied and the girls adored them- so I think they went to the girls on the way out to encourage them and validate their feelings. And as for the coach that has come back- have you ever heard of abused people returning to their abusers? I don't know her reasons, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that it's a toxic environment.

[[email protected]]

"First off--confronting a domineering bully (if that's how she's being dysfunctional) isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe they tried tiptoeing around the edges and mentioning an issue with the head coach and got shot down. Maybe they don't do well with conflict and tension. Maybe they felt a closed door from those above the head coach and chose to just leave instead of stay and continue dealing with the tension and stress of having a dysfunctional boss."

Thank you for THIS about the William and Mary situation. After many, many attempts to resolve privately with the coach and the AD, I personally felt like this was possibly the only way to get through. My observation of the Athletic Dept. is that their highest priority is the fundraising and if she's doing that successfully they will let these other "less important" things slide. Also, I would have very much appreciated someone letting me know about these kinds of environments when my daughter was getting recruited. Very helpful to get insiders perspectives. And as for the assistant coaches being disrespectful- they were abused and saw that the girls were being bullied and the girls adored them- so I think they went to the girls on the way out to encourage them and validate their feelings. And as for the coach that has come back- have you ever heard of abused people returning to their abusers? I don't know her reasons, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that it's a toxic environment.

[LaxPundit07]

"First off--confronting a domineering bully (if that's how she's being dysfunctional) isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe they tried tiptoeing around the edges and mentioning an issue with the head coach and got shot down. Maybe they don't do well with conflict and tension. Maybe they felt a closed door from those above the head coach and chose to just leave instead of stay and continue dealing with the tension and stress of having a dysfunctional boss."

Thank you for THIS. After many, many attempts to resolve privately with the coach and the AD, I personally felt like this was possibly the only way to get through. My observation of the Athletic Dept. is that their highest priority is the fundraising and if she's doing that successfully they will let these other "less important" things slide. Also, I would have very much appreciated someone letting me know about these kinds of environments when my daughter was getting recruited. Very helpful to get insiders perspectives. And as for the assistant coaches being disrespectful- they were abused and saw that the girls were being bullied and the girls adored them- so I think they went to the girls on the way out to encourage them and validate their feelings. And as for the coach that has come back- have you ever heard of abused people returning to their abusers? I don't know her reasons, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that it's a toxic environment.

Listen. I understand you have an obvious personal connection to the situation at William and Mary. And I respect that. But you have to respect my perspective as a former coach. It is 2023. People get “fired/cancelled/insert whatever description you want” for FAR less than what you are describing. So I am naturally skeptical of this situation. I find it hard to believe this was taken to the administration and they did nothing. William and Mary lacrosse is a non-revenue, female sport. The ugly truth is the administration there, and many places, has no reason to stand behind a coach making 65k a year for a non revenue sport. They have no motivation on to stand behind a coach that is causing them headaches. So the fact this was brought to their attention and ignored is very, very suspicious to me. It leads me to believe things there aren’t as bad as you describe, your view is skewed because your child is hurting and having a poor experience, and there are like minded folks around you that feel the same way. Question: have you discussed this with all the parents? All the athletes? Or just a select few? I would caution you on making sure you aren’t living in an echo chamber with this. Again, it’s not that I am skeptical of YOU. I don’t know you. I am skeptical of this fact: William and Mary has NO REASON WHATSOEVER to stand behind a non revenue coach who is toxic, a bully, etc. so why are they? Perhaps because your perspective isn’t exactly the reality.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

"First off--confronting a domineering bully (if that's how she's being dysfunctional) isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe they tried tiptoeing around the edges and mentioning an issue with the head coach and got shot down. Maybe they don't do well with conflict and tension. Maybe they felt a closed door from those above the head coach and chose to just leave instead of stay and continue dealing with the tension and stress of having a dysfunctional boss."

Thank you for THIS.

[[email protected]]

Of course my perspective of the William and Mary coaching situation isn't the reality of everyone on the team. But I am not alone. There are many girls and parents that are unhappy. I don't feel like I need to convince you. I am speaking the truth as I know it and you can choose to believe it or not. The administration doesn't want a lot of turnover (she hasn't been there that long, so I think they are hoping this will go away). We will see. They have given her some direction so they are addressing it, so for you to say that they would definitely be doing something more is uninformed. Whether she gets fired or not doesn't negate the feelings of the girls, parents and ex-coaches. (and by the way there has also been turn over with their conditioning coaches b/c of the head coach). And to be clear when you say "people get fired for far less than what you are describing" - I have purposely not included all of the sordid details on this thread, because it would be inappropriate. So to say that there isn't enough here for you to believe it is also uninformed. Am I saying everyone hates her- no. I am saying there has been a toxic environment and it has caused a ton of turn over (a provable fact). The origin of this conversation came from a question about the turnover. I am giving a perspective (and adding that it is shared by others), that's all.