Ivy League

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I was surprised to find no exclusive topic for the Ivy League amidst the 16 pages of topics. There were a couple of peripheral Ivy League topics, but none on just the Ivy League proper.

This great picture inspired me to see the Ancient Eight again next year. The season wasn't the same without the Ivy Leaguers. In recent years there have been some great games involving Princeton, Dartmouth and Penn against the rest of the NCAA (not to mention, amongst themselves). Typically, games scheduled vs those top 3 Ivy's during the regular season are usually pretty competitive. It will be interesting to see how the teams do after all the time off.

[LaxThoughts]

Yes, it will be great to see the Ivy League teams back in action. It is a real shame (and a clear insight into those schools’ attitudes toward their athletic programs) that the League seemed to relish sticking its finger into the athletes’ eyes this spring.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Yes, it will be great to see the Ivy League teams back in action. It is a real shame (and a clear insight into those schools’ attitudes toward their athletic programs) that the League seemed to relish sticking its finger into the athletes’ eyes this spring.

Why do you suppose that is? In hindsight, it aggravates me they decided to go their own way in spite of the rest of the NCAA.

[LaxThoughts]

Yes, it will be great to see the Ivy League teams back in action. It is a real shame (and a clear insight into those schools’ attitudes toward their athletic programs) that the League seemed to relish sticking its finger into the athletes’ eyes this spring.

Why do you suppose that is? In hindsight, it aggravates me they decided to go their own way in spite of the rest of the NCAA.

There is a range of distaste and resentment of athletics among the administrations and faculties of elite(ist) academic institutions (Ivy and D3). Some grudgingly accept athletics while pointedly making no accommodations for the time commitment athletics require. Others are openly hostile. And some would eliminate athletics altogether if they could. (The president of one prime D3 college commissioned a study to explore exactly that even before the pandemic.) It all adds up to an environment for the athletes that is markedly less welcoming than at most other schools, where athletes often get priority in class registration since big blocks of time are occupied by practices, where professors are understanding and accommodating of absences due to athletic travel, etc., etc. Then add these schools’ philosophical bend, seizing the opportunity to make the pandemic a political issue and to signal loudly that they are on the “correct” side of it at the expense of their athletes was a sadly predictable outcome.

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08 ... tic-future

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

There is a range of distaste and resentment of athletics among the administrations and faculties of elite(ist) academic institutions (Ivy and D3). Some grudgingly accept athletics while pointedly making no accommodations for the time commitment athletics require. Others are openly hostile. And some would eliminate athletics altogether if they could. (The president of one prime D3 college commissioned a study to explore exactly that even before the pandemic.) It all adds up to an environment for the athletes that is markedly less welcoming than at most other schools, where athletes often get priority in class registration since big blocks of time are occupied by practices, where professors are understanding and accommodating of absences due to athletic travel, etc., etc. Then add these schools’ philosophical bend, seizing the opportunity to make the pandemic a political issue and to signal loudly that they are on the “correct” side of it at the expense of their athletes was a sadly predictable outcome.

Compelling thoughts. Why do you suppose athletes continue to go to Ivy League schools if this is the case? Do you think the numbers will dwindle eventually?

[Bart]

Yes, it will be great to see the Ivy League teams back in action. It is a real shame (and a clear insight into those schools’ attitudes toward their athletic programs) that the League seemed to relish sticking its finger into the athletes’ eyes this spring.

Why do you suppose that is? In hindsight, it aggravates me they decided to go their own way in spite of the rest of the NCAA.

There is a range of distaste and resentment of athletics among the administrations and faculties of elite(ist) academic institutions (Ivy and D3). Some grudgingly accept athletics while pointedly making no accommodations for the time commitment athletics require. Others are openly hostile. And some would eliminate athletics altogether if they could. (The president of one prime D3 college commissioned a study to explore exactly that even before the pandemic.) It all adds up to an environment for the athletes that is markedly less welcoming than at most other schools, where athletes often get priority in class registration since big blocks of time are occupied by practices, where professors are understanding and accommodating of absences due to athletic travel, etc., etc. Then add these schools’ philosophical bend, seizing the opportunity to make the pandemic a political issue and to signal loudly that they are on the “correct” side of it at the expense of their athletes was a sadly predictable outcome.

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08 ... tic-future

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

The IVY's and some other prime D3 schools are unabashedly academics first and everything else second. As a student looking into attending one of these types of schools it is upon you to realize this prior to sending in your deposit. It seems to me that there is this desire/demand that students who attend an Ivy get an Ivy education (for what every that is worth) yet receive the ACC/B1G10 athletic experience. You are just not going to get both. If these schools continue to be markedly less welcoming to students then the students/parents will vote with their feet and you will see the Ivy athletic experience wither away, which you think the majority of the, according to your experience, administrations and faculty would like to see anyhow.

That being said, the Ivy schools should have been playing lacrosse this spring.

[LaxThoughts]

There is a range of distaste and resentment of athletics among the administrations and faculties of elite(ist) academic institutions (Ivy and D3). Some grudgingly accept athletics while pointedly making no accommodations for the time commitment athletics require. Others are openly hostile. And some would eliminate athletics altogether if they could. (The president of one prime D3 college commissioned a study to explore exactly that even before the pandemic.) It all adds up to an environment for the athletes that is markedly less welcoming than at most other schools, where athletes often get priority in class registration since big blocks of time are occupied by practices, where professors are understanding and accommodating of absences due to athletic travel, etc., etc. Then add these schools’ philosophical bend, seizing the opportunity to make the pandemic a political issue and to signal loudly that they are on the “correct” side of it at the expense of their athletes was a sadly predictable outcome.

Compelling thoughts. Why do you suppose athletes continue to go to Ivy League schools if this is the case? Do you think the numbers will dwindle eventually?

The Ivies and similar D3 schools pull with the high level of education available and the prestige of the degrees they confer. Another significant factor is parental motivation stemming from parents wanting what they perceive is the best education for their children and/or perceived enhanced status among their friends resulting from their children’s admission to one of these schools. I do think kids are becoming more and more sophisticated and informed consumers, and the experience of the Ivy League athletes during the last two years will serve as a cautionary tale to many. We will have to wait and see if there will be a significant decline.

[Delco Transplant]

An example of the low priority that the Ivies place on athletics, particularly women's athletics, is the fact that the Columbia HC position has been open since Andrea Cofrin's "resignation" on March 9, 2020. A number of women's D1 lacrosse programs have had resignations/firings followed by new hirings within this time frame. There is no way that the HC position for men's football or basketball would remain open for 16 months at Columbia or any other Ivy. The women's lacrosse players are left flapping in the wind.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Based on earlier comments in this thread—what is it about the liberal/elitist ideology that looks down its snotty nose at athletics?

[Dasher]

I think the "elite" status of these schools has soured recently in the eyes of many. The following article from the WSJ wasn't surprising.
Why I stopped hiring Ivy League graduates.
"Even those who aren’t woke seem damaged by the experience, and they’re deprived of role models."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-stop ... 1623103004

[watcherinthewoods]

Based on earlier comments in this thread—what is it about the liberal/elitist ideology that looks down its snotty nose at athletics?

Prioritizing academics over athletics does not make anyone liberal or elite ... it keeps the focus on the primary mission of an institution of higher learning. Where the problem develops is that in an either/or scenario, athletics is the loser every time. The Ivies want athletes to diversify their student populations and keep alumni donations robust,(not a very well-kept secret that the majority of the athletic budgets in the Ivies comes from private donations, especially in football and men's lax), but they consistently fail to adequately support these student-athletes. I am not sure why they can't embrace honoring the "student" and the "athlete" equally ... executed correctly, one does not necessarily have to suffer at the expense of the other. I do think many families will begin to view the Ivies in a different light, based on the ugly realities laid bare by COVID.

[LarryGamLax]

Based on earlier comments in this thread—what is it about the liberal/elitist ideology that looks down its snotty nose at athletics?

Prioritizing academics over athletics does not make anyone liberal or elite ... it keeps the focus on the primary mission of an institution of higher learning. Where the problem develops is that in an either/or scenario, athletics is the loser every time. The Ivies want athletes to diversify their student populations and keep alumni donations robust,(not a very well-kept secret that the majority of the athletic budgets in the Ivies comes from private donations, especially in football and men's lax), but they consistently fail to adequately support these student-athletes. I am not sure why they can't embrace honoring the "student" and the "athlete" equally… executed correctly, one does not necessarily have to suffer at the expense of the other. I do think many families will begin to view the Ivies in a different light, based on the ugly realities laid bare by COVID.

Well stated WITW! If you are an athlete and you go to an Ivy League school, then you have to know that athletics are NOT the Focus or (to paraphrase Dirty Harry Callahan from "Magnum Force") "I'm afraid you've misjudged them".

[MDlaxfan76]

Based on earlier comments in this thread—what is it about the liberal/elitist ideology that looks down its snotty nose at athletics?

Prioritizing academics over athletics does not make anyone liberal or elite ... it keeps the focus on the primary mission of an institution of higher learning. Where the problem develops is that in an either/or scenario, athletics is the loser every time. The Ivies want athletes to diversify their student populations and keep alumni donations robust,(not a very well-kept secret that the majority of the athletic budgets in the Ivies comes from private donations, especially in football and men's lax), but they consistently fail to adequately support these student-athletes. I am not sure why they can't embrace honoring the "student" and the "athlete" equally… executed correctly, one does not necessarily have to suffer at the expense of the other. I do think many families will begin to view the Ivies in a different light, based on the ugly realities laid bare by COVID.

Well stated WITW! If you are an athlete and you go to an Ivy League school, then you have to know that athletics are NOT the Focus or (to paraphrase Dirty Harry Callahan from "Magnum Force") "I'm afraid you've misjudged them".

This topic was discussed pretty exhaustively on the Men's side this past year.

#1 is well stated in the bold above. Academics come first, by a wide margin. and Ivy students, parents, alums appreciate that. It's a feature, not a bug.

#2 The Ivies have a much higher percentage of student participation in D1 sports (and sports in general) than the typical Big 10, ACC, much less SEC etc school. More teams, more athletes, as a percentage of student body. Typically a lot higher percentage.

#3 the notion that sports aren't supported by these institutions (and especially by their alumni) is almost laughable. Note again #2. Sports are seen, institutionally, by the Boards of Trustees and most leadership, as part of the overall educational opportunity offered by the school, just as are robust arts programs and club activities, etc. For instance Dartmouth's very extensive Outing Club. And alumni support is very strong, indeed as one poster noted, many of the programs are endowed.

#4 what is not supported is any aspect of sports not actually involved with educational experience or in which favoritism is provided to an athlete that would not be provided, say to a member of an acapella group. Big money sports (eg men's football and basketball), though played, are not supported as money makers at these schools.

Back to #1, those who choose to go to these schools want exactly this set of priorities...but of course, competitive athletes will always chafe at what they perceive to be significant advantages enjoyed by teams and athletes with whom they compete beyond the IL. That's fine, those who choose to 'go Ivy' should do so with their eyes open. They're going to be challenged. Think of it as extra wind sprints or lifts or shoot arounds, but in time management and studying skills...you know, life skills...

Please don't conflate DIII with Ivy. It's quite fair to say that most NESCAC's and a few other DIII schools offer a similarly academically focused experience, but there's a significant difference in time commitment required to successfully play at Ivies (which compete with D1 schools) than at nearly any DIII school. It's not for everyone. Depends on the student/athlete.

Stepping away from all that, I do think the Ivies could/should make a better effort at recognizing these energy and time commitments on their athletes (which are indeed more than the acapella group) and doing more to make it easier for them to actually excel academically...not with gut courses, but in making their schedules mesh with academic opportunities, etc. Make sure the darn food hall is open when they get out of practice, etc. Simple stuff.

I also think we're going to continue to see pressure to reduce the percentage of athletes, given that it's so high relative to other universities, but hopefully it'll be smarter than what Dartmouth stumbled on last summer, then was forced to reverse, firing the AD, reinstating the 5 sports teams...I think there are creative answers to address these pressures.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

An example of the low priority that the Ivies place on athletics, particularly women's athletics, is the fact that the Columbia HC position has been open since Andrea Cofrin's "resignation" on March 9, 2020. A number of women's D1 lacrosse programs have had resignations/firings followed by new hirings within this time frame. There is no way that the HC position for men's football or basketball would remain open for 16 months at Columbia or any other Ivy. The women's lacrosse players are left flapping in the wind.

That's a crying shame. Then I think, have any of the players transferred a la Gaby Rosenzweig? But then on the heels of that thought, probably not if they are more concerned with their education which is completely understandable. I've also heard it's not that easy to just transfer to another school. Lots of details have to be ironed out beforehand. In any event, it's still a sad state of affairs when a coaching vacancy lasts 16 months in a women's lacrosse program. I hope the position is filled soon by someone capable who really wants to coach for Columbia.

I'm glad they at least have Taylor Pennell as an interim coach. Here's her writeup from the Columbia team website:

Taylor Pennell enters her first season with the Columbia lacrosse program, having joined the staff as an assistant coach in August 2019. Pennell was named interim head coach on March 9, 2020.

Prior to her arrival on Morningside Heights, Pennell spent one season as an assistant coach at Bucknell before joining the staff at Holy Cross. While at Bucknell, Pennell helped coach the Bison to the program’s second winning record in 13 seasons. Notably in her two seasons with the Crusaders, the program reached the 2018 Patriot League Playoffs for the first time since 2015.

As a player, Pennell was a three-year starter as a defender at Rutgers, being elected team captain in her final two seasons. She was named the team’s ‘Most Improved Player’ in 2013. She was a member of the National Society of Collegiate Scholars and was named to both the Big East and Big Ten All-Academic teams during her time at Rutgers. Pennell graduated with a bachelor’s degree in exercise science and sport management from Rutgers in 2016.

Since February 2019, Pennell has served as an assistant coach and board member for the Uganda Lacrosse Foundation, which aims to promote and grow youth lacrosse in Uganda.

Pennell has a variety of experience in collegiate athletics, including familiarity with the Ivy League having served as an Ivy League intern in the spring of 2015. In her stint with the Ivy League, Pennell gained experience in compliance, communications and championships. She also spent the spring of 2016 interning with Rutgers’ University Foundation Department as an athletics development intern in the Varsity R Association.

A native of New Egypt, New Jersey, Pennell was an honorable mention High School All-American at The Peddie School.

[laxagainsthumanity]

It will be interesting to see how Ivy teams fare next year. There were several really good teams in the ACC in 2021 and most of the conference should be even better in 2022. After NU's disappointing finale and the dogfight that was the B1G, every single team in that conference is hungry and confident. And several more teams scattered around the country have momentum to build off of or a chip on their shoulder. As good as we are accustomed to Princeton and Penn being, one would have to expect them to take a step back. And Dartmouth's momentum has been seriously interrupted. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a one-bid conference next season, which is a shame.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

It will be interesting to see how Ivy teams fare next year. There were several really good teams in the ACC in 2021 and most of the conference should be even better in 2022.

Agreed

After NU's disappointing finale

They're going to have to figure out how to get past the stage fright, or whatever one refers to it as, in the NCAA semi's. Their last two trips were dismal no shows, especially last year, with NU shooting themselves in the foot with yellow after yellow after yellow. Embarrassing. In this clip from last season's win vs Syracuse, BC head coach Acacia can clearly be seen to exhort her team, "No cards, no cards, okay? Be smart, no cards." Did NU coach Kelly Amonte Hiller ever have that conversation with her team in that semi vs Syracuse? Did she tell them and they were so undisciplined that they ignored her--willfully or otherwise?

and the dogfight that was the B1G, every single team in that conference is hungry and confident.

Not sure I can put all the teams in this category. Michigan had a down year. And in spite of their two wins over Maryland, Penn State did too. I don't know how confident Penn State will be with standout Olivia Dirks bolting for Carolina and the changes on the coaching staff, but we'll see. I hope both teams do well as I root for them. Same thing for Maryland. Another defensive player left during the offseason. I can't recall if there were others. Aurora Cordingley and others are coming in through the portal so we'll see how they all mesh together next year. After another down season for the Little Turtles, I'm not sure how confident they are. But we shall see. JHU, OSU and of course Rutgers--all hungry. Not sure any of the teams are ready and able yet to knock off Northwestern however.

And several more teams scattered around the country have momentum to build off of or a chip on their shoulder.

Like who? (for conversations sake)

As good as we are accustomed to Princeton and Penn being, one would have to expect them to take a step back.

Could very well be.

And Dartmouth's momentum has been seriously interrupted.

Refresh my memory on why you believe this to be so with Big Green.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a one-bid conference next season

Nor I

which is a shame.

Very much so.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Interesting in light of some items discussed further back in this topic:

https://twitter.com/putigers/status/141 ... 41122?s=21

Is it a token gesture or a sign of good faith?

[laxagainsthumanity]

and the dogfight that was the B1G, every single team in that conference is hungry and confident.

Not sure I can put all the teams in this category. Michigan had a down year. And in spite of their two wins over Maryland, Penn State did too. I don't know how confident Penn State will be with standout Olivia Dirks bolting for Carolina and the changes on the coaching staff, but we'll see. I hope both teams do well as I root for them. Same thing for Maryland. Another defensive player left during the offseason. I can't recall if there were others. Aurora Cordingley and others are coming in through the portal so we'll see how they all mesh together next year. After another down season for the Little Turtles, I'm not sure how confident they are. But we shall see. JHU, OSU and of course Rutgers--all hungry. Not sure any of the teams are ready and able yet to knock off Northwestern however.

In general, teams look for reasons to believe in themselves, unless they're terribly beaten down. Everyone in the B1G can find reasons to be optimistic, although yes, some have to look harder than others. Even Michigan beat a pretty good Rutgers team twice, and of their 9 losses only two were by more than 4 goals (by 9 to NU and by 7 to JHU); they were missing something important but they had a foundation in place (although they did graduate a lot). PSU has a ton of young talent and showed their potential last year by beating mighty Maryland. I don't think either team will be particularly good in 2022 but I think both will fight to prove their critics wrong.

And several more teams scattered around the country have momentum to build off of or a chip on their shoulder.

Like who? (for conversations sake)

Vanderbilt, Jacksonville, UConn, Drexel, Hofstra, Temple, ASU... A lot of teams are hoping for 2021 to be the start of a new chapter. Denver quietly had a great season. USC and Colorado want to get back to where they were.

And Dartmouth's momentum has been seriously interrupted.

Refresh my memory on why you believe this to be so with Big Green.

Dartmouth had been trending up, somewhat slowly but sustainably, since 2018. in 2020, it was remarkable how they took the coaching change in stride. I wondered if they could sustain it. And then they lost a full year of practice. It's one thing for teams like Penn and Princeton that were already accustomed to being at the top, although as I said I think they'll take a step back as well. For a team that was fighting hard to establish themselves, it will be that much tougher to come back from this.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Good shtuff here, laxagainst. Lots of food for thought. Thanks for the generous response.

[watcherinthewoods]

Dartmouth had actually been trending up since 2016 ... coming in second in the Ivies in 2018 with a signature win over Princeton on the road and in 2019 winning a share of the Ivy title and getting to the NCAA for the first time in a since 2013. The coaching change in 2020 was very welcome and the team's performance on the field reflected this, with the team finishing 5-0 and a #7 national ranking.

The last of Patton's recruits are seniors with very little experience (the most experienced has 7 GPs) and Frank's recruits have yet to hit Hanover. It will take this program some time to recover.