njbill - 1 Minute (2 Day) Penalty

[MDlaxfan76]

... better branded as 'like Putin" or "Putinesque"...

This strikes me as reasonable. A "Russian 'bot" Rule. If a Russian 'bot was in our forum, we'd remove it immediately. So why not do something similar if a post-er's posts read a *lot* like a Russian 'bot?

It's the combination of relentlessness, the sheer scale and frequency, along with the aggressive nature and callous, intentional use of misinformation/disinformation that marks the Russian troll and bot farm style.

“I mean, it could be Russia, but it could also be China. It could also be lots of other people. It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, OK?" - DJT 2016

[wgdsr]

After having given this some thought for the better part of a week, I’ve decided to no longer participate on FanLax. This is my last post. Admin, delete my user account.

I don’t like personal attacks, but have always fought my own battles. As I’ve said, I’ve never reported a post in almost 20 years at LaxPower and now FanLax. I don’t think it’s good manners to do so. That’s not how I was raised, to use a phrase that’s become popular of late. If you have a problem, deal with it and resolve it yourself.

I suffered through a week of abuse without taking the bait, though I did tell the poster after his first “creepy” comment that I thought he was crossing a line. After that week, I posted that I had no interest in discussing anything with a stranger who called me “creepy.” I said I had never reported a post, but was tempted to do so in this instance. Those posts were my way of requesting the poster to back off and alerting admin that he needed to get control of things.

Admin did nothing. The poster did not back off, but within the hour after my second one continued the attacks (“hater,” “cowardly,” “vendetta,” “personal animosity.”). A couple of hours later, more abuse. Admin still did nothing.

The poster went relatively quiet for a period, but picked up his blowtorch again, two weeks later. At that point, I’d had enough and, yes, lost my cool. I wrote the “unhealthy infatuation” post. No response from admin to this post.

Some minutes later I posted that I minded creepy, ad hominem attacks (my third such message in this vein). To which admin responded: “agreed. Let’s be mindful of personal attacks.” Admin considers that to be a warning to me, as do some other posters. Hard to understand why a (legitimate) complaint about personal attacks can or should serve as the basis for a warning to me.

Some posters have referenced my “unhealthy infatuation” post. But that post was not admin’s basis for the warning or the subsequent suspension. Had that been the case, you’d have gotten no argument from me about a warning or suspension. I’d have taken my medicine. But, again and importantly, that isn’t what happened here. If admin considered that post to be the basis for the warning, he should have said so or quoted it, instead of quoting a different post which (reasonably) created the impression that that was the post necessitating the warning in his view.

So, OK, let’s say that was a legitimate warning directed at me. You then get to the next issue, which is whether the post I was suspended for warranted a suspension. I wrote to Larry: “you are wasting your time on this can opener. He thinks Charlotte North is the best player of all time, and no one can tell him otherwise.”

Does that mild post warrant a suspension, whether or not there had been a prior warning? No. Not in a million years in my view. I, myself, have probably written scores of posts worse than that. On FanLax, you could find 1000s.

While I don’t like the personal attacks, that’s not why I am leaving. I’ve leaving because of admin’s handling of this. His inconsistent moderation in my case and others is unprincipled, unfair, and just plain wrong. He suspends me for a benign post (I challenge anyone to find a milder post that has been the subject of a FanLax suspension), yet Can Opener goes unpunished. Admin says a poster must keep his side of the street clean in order to be entitled to administrative relief. Can Opener kept his side of the road clean? Huh? Beyond absurd.

But the piece de resistance? Citing Cletus – CLETUS? – as the spokesperson for proper forum decorum. That was just beyond the pale.

People are getting flagged for the most ridiculous things. 8meterPA gets penalized for commenting on the women’s forum troll when the troll, himself, acknowledges he’s a troll and says he revels in his troll-ish behavior. How ludicrous is that? Another poster who has commented in this thread has repeatedly called someone a troll elsewhere on FanLax, yet he has never been sanctioned. (Not saying he should; just pointing out the inconsistency.)

I see that Cletus has now resumed his trolling (among other things accusing posters of “intimidating” others). 8meterPA, DMac, and seacoaster have properly called him out. Admin has done nothing about Cletus' continued trolling.

DMac (rightly) calls out Cletus for saying posters “can go pound sand.” What happens? DMac gets sent to the pen. Cletus goes unpunished.

A couple of posters have complained privately to me about Cletus. I said that for some reason, he didn’t bother me. But they were right and, boy, was I wrong. He’s become the scourge of the women’s board, arguably a cancer. He says the site should have “zero tolerance.” Huh? Cletus wants zero tolerance? Aside from the fact that when FanLax was started, they said the rules would be looser than LaxPower’s – and certainly not “zero tolerance” – how many of his posts would be whacked under such a rule?

It’s a strange world when 8meterPA, DMac, and I get suspended and Can Opener and Cletus do not. Again, gross inconsistencies. At least CO fessed up to having reported my posts. Cletus (the other person who obviously did so), are you going to do the same?

A few days ago Mr. Zero Tolerance called me a bully and an intimidator, referencing Hitler and the Nazis. He said he was referring to the “larger issue of bullying and intimidation and insults on these boards, not just what went on between CO and Jersey.” Not just. Well, not just means “including.” Nor did he add the usual disclaimer – if that is what he meant – that his comments did not apply to me. So they did. At least that’s how I read them. Has admin taken any action? No. That Cletus later deleted those comments is pretty compelling evidence he knew they were inappropriate.

DMac is right. Cletus is admin’s fair-haired boy. And to repeat – and this one boggles my mind more than anything else in this whole mess – admin calls Cletus’ view on proper forum etiquette “spot on.” Sir, you are woefully out of touch with the women’s board. If you are going to continue to moderate here, I suggest you take some time to familiarize yourself with the posts and posters. Or find someone who has the temperament and judgment to do the job properly and even handedly.

This site is supposed to be fun. It is no longer fun for me. It has become aggravating and a drag. Admin says: “Our goal is to make this party enjoyable for everyone.” How ironic. It certainly is no longer enjoyable for me. So I am out of here. I just can’t fight City Hall, that is, an admin who metes out inconsistent punishments while at the same time allowing his “favorites” to write whatever they want. I can’t and won’t abide such a system.

To those who supported me (on this site and off-line) while I was in the sin bin and afterwards, thank you. Very much appreciated. Very, very much. I owe you a beer or 12. To my many forum friends and acquaintances whom I’ve come to know over the years (“some are dead and some are living”), thanks for the dialogue. It has been entertaining, informative, educational, and a real pleasure. Fortunately, I know some of you in real life (wish it were more) so I hope I’ll be seeing you on the lacrosse fields. Happy trails.

well, i was wondering w.t.f. you went.

closet psychologist, my take: with your background, you consider fairness and the meting out of justice for either side a primary principal. obviously, you say as much, but of course in a long life it's probably something that was emphasized every day.
while that is all well and good, 2 things:
-- i'd guess you often found out that's not how things worked. those ends often did not align with outcomes, even with the veneer of guiding principal in a profession.
-- on our friendly lacrosse sites, it has been obvious to me for a very long time that lax sites mirror that real life (and even justice-for-all life). look no further than some of the comments on this thread.

now, you can take your ball, and that'd be a "crime". but one you may have considered to be the one better to live with.
OR
you can journey back after a refresh, with an attitude that lax sites will be administered like they're going to be administered. i've long ago come to that conclusion, and decided to make this small slice of discourse on fanlax one that i can ignore that disappointment. i'd encourage you to consider whether that's something you can do. if you can, it's liberating and you'll gravitate to the discussions you want to, and leave the collateral garbage that transpires behind. whether they're suspensions, inequities or whatever.

godspeed to you, old man.

[MDlaxfan76]

One our most thoughtful posters, indeed.

I dunno if Matt et al can reach out to him after sufficient time for him to be able to consider a return, but there's indeed been a rule change that provides some more latitude for them to warn, then penalize, the sorts of 'trolling' behaviors that ticked njbill off, exhausted him.

Still yet to be seen whether that'll be sufficient, but I like your attitude wgdsr...it ain't gonna be perfect, like most things in life.

[wgdsr]

One our most thoughtful posters, indeed.

I dunno if Matt et al can reach out to him after sufficient time for him to be able to consider a return, but there's indeed been a rule change that provides some more latitude for them to warn, then penalize, the sorts of 'trolling' behaviors that ticked njbill off, exhausted him.

Still yet to be seen whether that'll be sufficient, but I like your attitude wgdsr...it ain't gonna be perfect, like most things in life.

he actually was exhausted by the admin's rules and handling of things. not the actual trolling or attacks. njbill can handle himself fine.

[MDlaxfan76]

One our most thoughtful posters, indeed.

I dunno if Matt et al can reach out to him after sufficient time for him to be able to consider a return, but there's indeed been a rule change that provides some more latitude for them to warn, then penalize, the sorts of 'trolling' behaviors that ticked njbill off, exhausted him.

Still yet to be seen whether that'll be sufficient, but I like your attitude wgdsr...it ain't gonna be perfect, like most things in life.

he actually was exhausted by the admin's rules and handling of things. not the actual trolling or attacks. njbill can handle himself fine.

mmmm, I quite agree that njbill could more than hold his own in any actual debate or battle.

But, he was clearly very, very ticked off by the trolling and was responding directly to it. Problem was that the ref gave the game, all the players, a warning about personal attacks and then he was the last one taking a swing...happens. Doesn't make njbill's swing unjustified in the slightest, just unfortunate to be the guy taking the swing after the warning.

Fair to say, 'hey, how about the guy who was doing the 'dirty stuff' (trolling) to begin with'...but the 'dirty stuff' didn't violate the then rules...the Admin now has a rule in place, after lots of discussion, much of which caused by this specific event, to use to take on the 'dirty stuff', hopefully before things go ballistic.

If you're saying we should be okey dokey with posters ripping each other personally, no ref at all, I do disagree. Obviously that's nothing more than one poster's opinion. I'm just another guest around here.

[JoeMauer89]

One our most thoughtful posters, indeed.

I dunno if Matt et al can reach out to him after sufficient time for him to be able to consider a return, but there's indeed been a rule change that provides some more latitude for them to warn, then penalize, the sorts of 'trolling' behaviors that ticked njbill off, exhausted him.

Still yet to be seen whether that'll be sufficient, but I like your attitude wgdsr...it ain't gonna be perfect, like most things in life.

he actually was exhausted by the admin's rules and handling of things. not the actual trolling or attacks. njbill can handle himself fine.

mmmm, I quite agree that njbill could more than hold his own in any actual debate or battle.

But, he was clearly very, very ticked off by the trolling and was responding directly to it. Problem was that the ref gave the game, all the players, a warning about personal attacks and then he was the last one taking a swing...happens. Doesn't make njbill's swing unjustified in the slightest, just unfortunate to be the guy taking the swing after the warning.

Fair to say, 'hey, how about the guy who was doing the 'dirty stuff' (trolling) to begin with'...but the 'dirty stuff' didn't violate the then rules...the Admin now has a rule in place, after lots of discussion, much of which caused by this specific event, to use to take on the 'dirty stuff', hopefully before things go ballistic.

If you're saying we should be okey dokey with posters ripping each other personally, no ref at all, I do disagree. Obviously that's nothing more than one poster's opinion. I'm just another guest around here.

MD,

He's saying nothing of the sort, anybody who can think clearly knows that njbill was fed up with the Admin's handling of discipline. He was a long time poster who could MORE than handle himself, he was not nearly as bothered by the trolling as you say. Expand your narrow-minded views, it may help you learn a thing or two!

Joe

[wgdsr]

i agree admin's should be able to make the rules.
i even think matnum or whomever has good intentions. asked for input plenty, genuinely.
i believe we are slaves to our biases. being an admin doesn't relieve us from this aspect of human nature.

you should read njbill's posts again, and discern what he's saying.

[MDlaxfan76]

i agree admin's should be able to make the rules.
i even think matnum or whomever has good intentions. asked for input plenty, genuinely.
i believe we are slaves to our biases. being an admin doesn't relieve us from this aspect of human nature.

you should read njbill's posts again, and discern what he's saying.

I do understand the issue and have also read a whole bunch of other's feelings on the exact same subject and 'trolling' poster. I don't think this ever would have been blown up if the trolling hadn't happened, or had been quashed without getting so many folks' backs up.

Of course, that's just my perception, late to the back and forth...and sure, njbill clearly thought admin wasn't being even handed. Also didn't want any 'assistance' in dealing with the troll..wanted to be able to handle it directly, including what then became violations, justified as they may have been.

I just want njbill back if that's remotely possible. Longtime, valuable contributor to all sorts of discussions.

[MDlaxfan76]

One our most thoughtful posters, indeed.

I dunno if Matt et al can reach out to him after sufficient time for him to be able to consider a return, but there's indeed been a rule change that provides some more latitude for them to warn, then penalize, the sorts of 'trolling' behaviors that ticked njbill off, exhausted him.

Still yet to be seen whether that'll be sufficient, but I like your attitude wgdsr...it ain't gonna be perfect, like most things in life.

he actually was exhausted by the admin's rules and handling of things. not the actual trolling or attacks. njbill can handle himself fine.

mmmm, I quite agree that njbill could more than hold his own in any actual debate or battle.

But, he was clearly very, very ticked off by the trolling and was responding directly to it. Problem was that the ref gave the game, all the players, a warning about personal attacks and then he was the last one taking a swing...happens. Doesn't make njbill's swing unjustified in the slightest, just unfortunate to be the guy taking the swing after the warning.

Fair to say, 'hey, how about the guy who was doing the 'dirty stuff' (trolling) to begin with'...but the 'dirty stuff' didn't violate the then rules...the Admin now has a rule in place, after lots of discussion, much of which caused by this specific event, to use to take on the 'dirty stuff', hopefully before things go ballistic.

If you're saying we should be okey dokey with posters ripping each other personally, no ref at all, I do disagree. Obviously that's nothing more than one poster's opinion. I'm just another guest around here.

MD,

He's saying nothing of the sort, anybody who can think clearly knows that njbill was fed up with the Admin's handling of discipline. He was a long time poster who could MORE than handle himself, he was not nearly as bothered by the trolling as you say. Expand your narrow-minded views, it may help you learn a thing or two!

Joe

As always, thanks for your input Joe.

[wgdsr]

i agree admin's should be able to make the rules.
i even think matnum or whomever has good intentions. asked for input plenty, genuinely.
i believe we are slaves to our biases. being an admin doesn't relieve us from this aspect of human nature.

you should read njbill's posts again, and discern what he's saying.

I do understand the issue and have also read a whole bunch of other's feelings on the exact same subject and 'trolling' poster. I don't think this ever would have been blown up if the trolling hadn't happened, or had been quashed without getting so many folks' backs up.

Of course, that's just my perception, late to the back and forth...and sure, njbill clearly thought admin wasn't being even handed. Also didn't want any 'assistance' in dealing with the troll..wanted to be able to handle it directly, including what then became violations, justified as they may have been.

I just want njbill back if that's remotely possible. Longtime, valuable contributor to all sorts of discussions.

while the 2nd sentence, 1st paragraph is likely true, that also comes with many consequences if not done perfectly in a "new world". personally, i think most should handle their feelz if they want to debate. that's just me, and i'm not referring to nj.

your take on what may have been justifiable is what he, and others, have taken issue with.

and nj (valuable contributions and erascible debater) bowing out is what can happen when the best laid plans....

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I think blaming admin in this whole affair is unjust, in addition to being just downright unfair. Admin had his hands full for a time there. Some nasty things were being written on a number of fronts and admin was summoned time and again to referee. I thought he did a great job considering. One thing I saw about admin during that time was his consistency. He warned the combatants and if it kept up, he whistled the first person off the ice who paid him no mind. He did it time and again—first the warning, then the whistle; first the warning, then the whistle. No one could claim ignorance because admin had established a consistent standard. Knock it off—or else.

njbill had the same initial warning everyone else got. I’m sad Bill’s gone but neither he (nor we) can justly blame admin for his departure. The posts that came into question after the fact were never reported obviously. Had they been, admin would have looked into them and issued a warning if warranted. In njbill's case, those so called trolling posts were peripheral to the knock-down-drag-out he had with one member in particular.

As was said before, admin can’t possibly read every post in every thread under every topic on every board. It’s insane to expect it. Folks wrote admin didn’t do enough, did too much, didn’t do it soon enough, did it too soon, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Not easy being admin. I wouldn’t want the job. I doubt any of you would either. And if you do want it, I doubt you’d be fair or even-handed about it. That's what life was like on the old LaxPower. One of the reasons LP sucked was all the admins and moderators running around dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases. I haven't seen that here.

My personal opinion for what it’s worth—Bill chose to take his ball and go home, as was said earlier. That’s his prerogative, but in no way admin’s fault. Had njbill reported the initial attacks he received, admin would most assuredly have issued a warning. But he didn’t. He took matters into his own hands after the warning and paid the price, just like everyone else beforehand. Lady Justice is blind for a reason. Justice is--what is the right thing according to the standard set--not who comes before the bar, or how they're dressed, or how many good conduct medals they have, or how many times they've been in jail--rich or poor, Sunday school teacher or pedophile. Justice doesn't see any of that. What is right in the moment according to the standard set. Admin didn’t play favorites. He enforced the standard. In my book, that's commendable and warrants support.

[Tommy No]

I think blaming admin in this whole affair is unjust, in addition to being just downright unfair... Admin didn’t play favorites. He enforced the standard. In my book, that's commendable and warrants support.

And Admin released the penalty. NJBill's penalty was nothing... and during the off-season. I had a buddy in HS who was the leading scorer on the hockey team and never got a penalty. His plus/minus was excellent. Then, one game, he got a penalty and... He freaked out. Screamed at the ref how it wasn't a penalty, etc. Totally overreacted. That's how I see this Bill situation.

[wgdsr]

I think blaming admin in this whole affair is unjust, in addition to being just downright unfair... Admin didn’t play favorites. He enforced the standard. In my book, that's commendable and warrants support.

And Admin released the penalty. NJBill's penalty was nothing... and during the off-season. I had a buddy in HS who was the leading scorer on the hockey team and never got a penalty. His plus/minus was excellent. Then, one game, he got a penalty and... He freaked out. Screamed at the ref how it wasn't a penalty, etc. Totally overreacted. That's how I see this Bill situation.

and his reaction had nothing to do with the length of the penalty, timing or whether it was released. your buddy's penalty doesn't sound like it's a comp.

[Tommy No]

and his reaction had nothing to do with the length of the penalty, timing or whether it was released. your buddy's penalty doesn't sound like it's a comp.

That's my point. For both, it was just that they got a penalty. Just not that big a deal. Both Bill and my buddy just took an innocuous act that most people deal with pretty easily very personally.

[8meterPA]

I think blaming admin in this whole affair is unjust, in addition to being just downright unfair. Admin had his hands full for a time there. Some nasty things were being written on a number of fronts and admin was summoned time and again to referee. I thought he did a great job considering. One thing I saw about admin during that time was his consistency. He warned the combatants and if it kept up, he whistled the first person off the ice who paid him no mind. He did it time and again—first the warning, then the whistle; first the warning, then the whistle. No one could claim ignorance because admin had established a consistent standard. Knock it off—or else.

njbill had the same initial warning everyone else got. I’m sad Bill’s gone but neither he (nor we) can justly blame admin for his departure. The posts that came into question after the fact were never reported obviously. Had they been, admin would have looked into them and issued a warning if warranted. In njbill's case, those so called trolling posts were peripheral to the knock-down-drag-out he had with one member in particular.

As was said before, admin can’t possibly read every post in every thread under every topic on every board. It’s insane to expect it. Folks wrote admin didn’t do enough, did too much, didn’t do it soon enough, did it too soon, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Not easy being admin. I wouldn’t want the job. I doubt any of you would either. And if you do want it, I doubt you’d be fair or even-handed about it. That's what life was like on the old LaxPower. One of the reasons LP sucked was all the admins and moderators running around dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases. I haven't seen that here.

My personal opinion for what it’s worth—Bill chose to take his ball and go home, as was said earlier. That’s his prerogative, but in no way admin’s fault. Had njbill reported the initial attacks he received, admin would most assuredly have issued a warning. But he didn’t. He took matters into his own hands after the warning and paid the price, just like everyone else beforehand. Lady Justice is blind for a reason. Justice is--what is the right thing according to the standard set--not who comes before the bar, or how they're dressed, or how many good conduct medals they have, or how many times they've been in jail--rich or poor, Sunday school teacher or pedophile. Justice doesn't see any of that. What is right in the moment according to the standard set. Admin didn’t play favorites. He enforced the standard. In my book, that's commendable and warrants support.

[wgdsr]

and his reaction had nothing to do with the length of the penalty, timing or whether it was released. your buddy's penalty doesn't sound like it's a comp.

That's my point. For both, it was just that they got a penalty. Just not that big a deal. Both Bill and my buddy just took an innocuous act that most people deal with pretty easily very personally.

again, i'll agree to disagree here. at least in njbill's case, he was able to locate many counts on video of violations against to be considered in adjudication.

your friend the hockey player was not able to do something like that, even if he was beat up all game as a target.

take that to the ultimate decision making where he's lived his life (attorney in whatever capacity), and just maybe he has an expectation that he lives by beyond just missed calls.

i'm not not weighing in on the totality of the back and forth as i didn't read it all or even more than a portion. and njbill's not a saint.
but he doesn't strike me as a weak hand, and i can say we're not exactly aligned on all perspectives.

his taking it personally seems personal to his principals (another shameless plug to pull him in), not a reaction to being ruler slapped.

[Tommy No]

Bottomline, it just wasn't that big a deal. The whole thing was so nothing.

[wgdsr]

Bottomline, it just wasn't that big a deal. The whole thing was so nothing.

as are the posts. ironic.

[Tommy No]

Yes. The infraction was no big deal. The penalty was even less. Far too much drama about so very little. It was Admin! Bill had to leave! It's all just too much for my sensibilities...

[DMac]

I think blaming admin in this whole affair is unjust, in addition to being just downright unfair. Admin had his hands full for a time there. Some nasty things were being written on a number of fronts and admin was summoned time and again to referee. I thought he did a great job considering. One thing I saw about admin during that time was his consistency. He warned the combatants and if it kept up, he whistled the first person off the ice who paid him no mind. He did it time and again—first the warning, then the whistle; first the warning, then the whistle. No one could claim ignorance because admin had established a consistent standard. Knock it off—or else.

njbill had the same initial warning everyone else got. I’m sad Bill’s gone but neither he (nor we) can justly blame admin for his departure. The posts that came into question after the fact were never reported obviously. Had they been, admin would have looked into them and issued a warning if warranted. In njbill's case, those so called trolling posts were peripheral to the knock-down-drag-out he had with one member in particular.

As was said before, admin can’t possibly read every post in every thread under every topic on every board. It’s insane to expect it. Folks wrote admin didn’t do enough, did too much, didn’t do it soon enough, did it too soon, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Not easy being admin. I wouldn’t want the job. I doubt any of you would either. And if you do want it, I doubt you’d be fair or even-handed about it. That's what life was like on the old LaxPower. One of the reasons LP sucked was all the admins and moderators running around dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases. I haven't seen that here.

My personal opinion for what it’s worth—Bill chose to take his ball and go home, as was said earlier. That’s his prerogative, but in no way admin’s fault. Had njbill reported the initial attacks he received, admin would most assuredly have issued a warning. But he didn’t. He took matters into his own hands after the warning and paid the price, just like everyone else beforehand. Lady Justice is blind for a reason. Justice is--what is the right thing according to the standard set--not who comes before the bar, or how they're dressed, or how many good conduct medals they have, or how many times they've been in jail--rich or poor, Sunday school teacher or pedophile. Justice doesn't see any of that. What is right in the moment according to the standard set. Admin didn’t play favorites. He enforced the standard. In my book, that's commendable and warrants support.

Yes, this just came out of nowhere, so completely unexpected.
A few of njb's parting words;

DMac is right. Cletus is admin’s fair-haired boy. And to repeat – and this one boggles my mind more than anything else in this whole mess – admin calls Cletus’ view on proper forum etiquette “spot on.” Sir, you are woefully out of touch with the women’s board. If you are going to continue to moderate here, I suggest you take some time to familiarize yourself with the posts and posters. Or find someone who has the temperament and judgment to do the job properly and even handedly.

wgdsr, in the spirit of One L Hilary (RIP), "principals"?
Or as (s)he would say, principal is not synonymous with principle.