2024

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 3:27 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:36 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm Don't wanna answer the question huh? Or can't? :lol:

Don't think there is a Republican or right-wing answer to helping the working class in the 21st century. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Told ya. They're ALL like this.

They think blurting out "the Dems are bad" is the same thing giving us an answer as to what the Republican plan is to bring the Working Class into the 21st century global market.

This is why the R's have done NOTHING to help the working class for decades now: they literally don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

And the rich get richer. And the libs pull away from the conservatives in Flyover America economically, who are increasingly F'ed.

Clearly, they dont' give a sh(t about the working class, and that's why they don't even TRY to help them.
But the Rs get their votes. That’s what puzzles me.
It's because they make the culture war sales pitch to guys like OS, and it works: "vote for us, and we'll put the gays in their place". Or "vote for us, and we'll get rid of liberals".

Yeah, no. Voting for them does neither of those things. But try telling that to a voter.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Good thinking:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/10/us/a ... epeal.html

"A decision by Arizona’s highest court upholding an 1864 ban on nearly all abortions created chaos and confusion across the battleground state on Wednesday. Patients hunted for answers and Democratic lawmakers shouted “Save women’s lives!” as their efforts to repeal the law were frustrated by Republican leaders.

Democrats, who have criticized the decision resurrecting a 160-year-old abortion ban that has no exceptions for rape or incest, quickly tried to push bills through the Republican-controlled state Legislature that would repeal the ban — a move they said would protect women’s health and freedom and also force Republicans to take a formal vote to support the law or strike it down.

But Republican leaders in the Senate removed one bill from the day’s agenda on Wednesday, legislative aides said. In the other chamber, a Republican House member who has done a political about-face and called for striking down the law made a motion to vote on a Democratic repeal bill that has sat stalled for months. But Republican leaders quickly put the House into recess before any vote could be held.

Democrats on the Senate floor jeered as their Republican colleagues filed out of the chamber.

“I don’t see why we wouldn’t move forward,” said State Senator Anna Hernandez, Democrat of Phoenix. “Are they serious about this or are they not?” she said of the Republicans. “Are they just backpedaling when they realize they’re on the losing side of a policy battle?”

Despite the pressure from Democrats and some Republicans to undo the law, it was uncertain whether Republican leaders, who narrowly control both chambers of the legislature, would allow any immediate action on proposals to repeal the ban.

The president of the State Senate and speaker of the State House, both Republicans, issued a joint statement emphasizing that the court’s ruling had not yet taken effect and probably would not for weeks, as the legal fight over the 1864 law heads back to a lower court for additional arguments over its constitutionality. They said they were reviewing the ruling and would listen to their voters to determine what the legislature should do.

Axios reported that Ben Toma, the Republican speaker, opposed a repeal and said he would not allow a vote on it.

The moves in the Legislature came as clinics and patients scrambled to make sense of the legal and administrative confusion left in the wake of the 4-2 vote by Arizona’s high court, with little certainty about just when the 160-year-old ban would go back into effect.

The decision — and the rising anger about it — has exposed divisions among Arizona’s Republicans over their support for abortion restrictions. The uproar highlighted how abortion has become a political vulnerability for Republicans in a post-Roe America, even in traditionally conservative states.

Some Arizona Republicans who had previously voted to support abortion restrictions or give legal protection to fetuses abruptly shifted course on Tuesday concerning the 1864 law, and called for a repeal or some other legislative fix.

On Wednesday, former President Donald J. Trump, who has claimed credit for appointing U.S. Supreme Court justices who overturned the federal constitutional right to abortion, said Arizona’s high court had gone too far, and said he believed “that will be straightened out.”

But the state’s far-right Freedom Caucus praised the court’s ruling, saying it protected innocent lives, and vowed to oppose efforts to undo it.

At abortion clinics in Phoenix, doctors said on Wednesday that the court’s decision had created new anxiety and uncertainty. Phones have been ringing constantly at Camelback Family Planning, with patients asking whether they can still get services, and for how long, according to Dr. Gabrielle Goodrick, the clinic’s owner and medical director.

“They’re just freaking out,” Dr. Goodrick said.

She said her clinic had twice before been forced to temporarily stop providing abortions in the legal uncertainty after Roe v. Wade was overturned. The threat of having to stop again because of the 1864 ban, she said, would upend services at clinics and threaten her patients’ health.

“We’re living in a dystopia,” she said. “I’m hoping the Legislature will do something. This is not what Arizonans want.”
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:36 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm Don't wanna answer the question huh? Or can't? :lol:

Don't think there is a Republican or right-wing answer to helping the working class in the 21st century. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Told ya. They're ALL like this.

They think blurting out "the Dems are bad" is the same thing giving us an answer as to what the Republican plan is to bring the Working Class into the 21st century global market.

This is why the R's have done NOTHING to help the working class for decades now: they literally don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

And the rich get richer. And the libs pull away from the conservatives in Flyover America economically, who are increasingly F'ed.

Clearly, they dont' give a sh(t about the working class, and that's why they don't even TRY to help them.
Fix K-12 education & implant immigrants' work ethic.
You can live well, for a lot less, in flyover country.
Stop off-shoring manufacturing jobs, ...like importing Chinese EVs assembled in Mexico's maquiladoras.
Unleash the energy sector (again) in flyover country.
Go a few more trillion in debt to build high speed rail lines to nowhere.

Self-confessed Democrat Socialists :
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... acobin-dsa
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:16 am
a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:36 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm Don't wanna answer the question huh? Or can't? :lol:

Don't think there is a Republican or right-wing answer to helping the working class in the 21st century. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Told ya. They're ALL like this.

They think blurting out "the Dems are bad" is the same thing giving us an answer as to what the Republican plan is to bring the Working Class into the 21st century global market.

This is why the R's have done NOTHING to help the working class for decades now: they literally don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

And the rich get richer. And the libs pull away from the conservatives in Flyover America economically, who are increasingly F'ed.

Clearly, they dont' give a sh(t about the working class, and that's why they don't even TRY to help them.
Fix K-12 education & implant immigrants' work ethic.
You can live well, for a lot less, in flyover country.
Stop off-shoring manufacturing jobs, ...like importing Chinese EVs assembled in Mexico's maquiladoras.
Unleash the energy sector (again) in flyover country.
Go a few more trillion in debt to build high speed rail lines to nowhere.

Self-confessed Democrat Socialists :
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... acobin-dsa
:lol: So you come back with political platitudes.

Cool. Why not come up with the tried and true "fight waste and fraud" in government spending while you're at it?

You can live well in flyover country so long as tax dollars from big cities keep flowing there, building their roads, internet cables, Federal and State parks, MASSIVE farm subsidies, MASSIVE health care and Hospital subsidies, and on and on and on.....

Put me in charge. I'll cut every dollar off, and then you can come on here and explain why the free market has turned its back on rural America, and nearly every farm in America shuts down because they can't compete with food produced in other nations in a free market.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:12 am
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:16 am
a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:36 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm Don't wanna answer the question huh? Or can't? :lol:

Don't think there is a Republican or right-wing answer to helping the working class in the 21st century. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Told ya. They're ALL like this.

They think blurting out "the Dems are bad" is the same thing giving us an answer as to what the Republican plan is to bring the Working Class into the 21st century global market.

This is why the R's have done NOTHING to help the working class for decades now: they literally don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

And the rich get richer. And the libs pull away from the conservatives in Flyover America economically, who are increasingly F'ed.

Clearly, they dont' give a sh(t about the working class, and that's why they don't even TRY to help them.
Fix K-12 education & implant immigrants' work ethic.
You can live well, for a lot less, in flyover country.
Stop off-shoring manufacturing jobs, ...like importing Chinese EVs assembled in Mexico's maquiladoras.
Unleash the energy sector (again) in flyover country.
Go a few more trillion in debt to build high speed rail lines to nowhere.

Self-confessed Democrat Socialists :
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... acobin-dsa
:lol: So you come back with political platitudes.

Cool. Why not come up with the tried and true "fight waste and fraud" in government spending while you're at it?

You can live well in flyover country so long as tax dollars from big cities keep flowing there, building their roads, internet cables, Federal and State parks, MASSIVE farm subsidies, MASSIVE health care and Hospital subsidies, and on and on and on.....

Put me in charge. I'll cut every dollar off, and then you can come on here and explain why the free market has turned its back on rural America, and nearly every farm in America shuts down because they can't compete with food produced in other nations in a free market.
Is that the same government that sets the price for milk that keeps dairy farmers living in poverty??
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:12 am
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:16 am
a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:36 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm Don't wanna answer the question huh? Or can't? :lol:

Don't think there is a Republican or right-wing answer to helping the working class in the 21st century. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Told ya. They're ALL like this.

They think blurting out "the Dems are bad" is the same thing giving us an answer as to what the Republican plan is to bring the Working Class into the 21st century global market.

This is why the R's have done NOTHING to help the working class for decades now: they literally don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

And the rich get richer. And the libs pull away from the conservatives in Flyover America economically, who are increasingly F'ed.

Clearly, they dont' give a sh(t about the working class, and that's why they don't even TRY to help them.
Fix K-12 education & implant immigrants' work ethic.
You can live well, for a lot less, in flyover country.
Stop off-shoring manufacturing jobs, ...like importing Chinese EVs assembled in Mexico's maquiladoras.
Unleash the energy sector (again) in flyover country.
Go a few more trillion in debt to build high speed rail lines to nowhere.

Self-confessed Democrat Socialists :
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... acobin-dsa
:lol: So you come back with political platitudes.

Cool. Why not come up with the tried and true "fight waste and fraud" in government spending while you're at it?

You can live well in flyover country so long as tax dollars from big cities keep flowing there, building their roads, internet cables, Federal and State parks, MASSIVE farm subsidies, MASSIVE health care and Hospital subsidies, and on and on and on.....

Put me in charge. I'll cut every dollar off, and then you can come on here and explain why the free market has turned its back on rural America, and nearly every farm in America shuts down because they can't compete with food produced in other nations in a free market.
Whatsamatter ? You don't like your Dem Socialist heroes self-definition.
You hector me for an answer. I provide you a definitive one & give examples, then you have a tantrum & dismiss it as political platitudes.
If your fellow Dem Socialist Jacobins are as spiteful as you, you should understand why the serfs in flyover country are so fearful of their bi-coastal overlords.
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:34 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:12 am
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:16 am
a fan wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:36 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm Don't wanna answer the question huh? Or can't? :lol:

Don't think there is a Republican or right-wing answer to helping the working class in the 21st century. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Told ya. They're ALL like this.

They think blurting out "the Dems are bad" is the same thing giving us an answer as to what the Republican plan is to bring the Working Class into the 21st century global market.

This is why the R's have done NOTHING to help the working class for decades now: they literally don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

And the rich get richer. And the libs pull away from the conservatives in Flyover America economically, who are increasingly F'ed.

Clearly, they dont' give a sh(t about the working class, and that's why they don't even TRY to help them.
Fix K-12 education & implant immigrants' work ethic.
You can live well, for a lot less, in flyover country.
Stop off-shoring manufacturing jobs, ...like importing Chinese EVs assembled in Mexico's maquiladoras.
Unleash the energy sector (again) in flyover country.
Go a few more trillion in debt to build high speed rail lines to nowhere.

Self-confessed Democrat Socialists :
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... acobin-dsa
:lol: So you come back with political platitudes.

Cool. Why not come up with the tried and true "fight waste and fraud" in government spending while you're at it?

You can live well in flyover country so long as tax dollars from big cities keep flowing there, building their roads, internet cables, Federal and State parks, MASSIVE farm subsidies, MASSIVE health care and Hospital subsidies, and on and on and on.....

Put me in charge. I'll cut every dollar off, and then you can come on here and explain why the free market has turned its back on rural America, and nearly every farm in America shuts down because they can't compete with food produced in other nations in a free market.
Whatsamatter ? You don't like your Dem Socialist heroes self-definition.
You hector me for an answer. I provide you a definitive one & give examples, then you have a tantrum & dismiss it as political platitudes.
:lol: Still want to pretend you're a drooling idiot. Cool.

How the F is "Fix K-12 Education and implant immigrants work ethic" a "plan"? What are you, younger than my daughter?

How does the government do that, OS? At least PRETEND you have details. This is like saying "fix our tax code". Or better still, "Make America Great Again" You're not this stupid, stop acting like you are.
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:34 pm If your fellow Dem Socialists are as spiteful as you, you should understand why the serfs in flyover country are so fearful of their bi-coastal overlords.
:lol: If you and your Republicans weren't utterly full of sh*t, you'd stop sending MY MONEY to flyover country, and make them fend for themselves.

You know: the "personal responsibility" you PRETEND to believe in. Remember that?

So...how is it "personal responsibility" to collect Billions of other people's tax dollars to float rural lifestyles?

YOU are the one claiming you don't like Big Government, and that you want Americans to take care of themselves without big government.

Right before you take taxpayer dollars to educate and train you. You're like all 2024 Republicans: Handouts for me, and everyone else can F off.

Reagan VETOED the Farm Bill. THAT is what YOU claim to stand for. You're lying. You want government for the groups you like, and for the groups you don't like, you want them to feel the full force of the free market. And if they complain? You call them lazy......as you enjoy your Federal Bennies and lifetime health care.
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:43 pm How the F is "Fix K-12 Education and implant immigrants work ethic" a "plan"? What are you, younger than my daughter?

How does the government do that, OS? At least PRETEND you have details.
The govt can't fix it because 1 political party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Teacher's Unions.
Covid revealed their misplaced priorities. That's why parents are rebelling at school board meetings & being arrested as terrorists.
The gubmint can't & won't fix K-12 public school education. Parents will & are.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: 2024

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

IMO, a fan is absolutely crushing Salty in this exchange, so he needs no help from me piling on to make fun of the gaslighting.

I'm more interested in a serious discussion, if anyone wants to have it including Salty, about the BALANCE I mentioned before.

Let's take the most extreme views Salty found as representative of a group calling themselves "democratic socialists". As of 2018, the group had rapidly grown from 6,000 to 45,000 in America...a tiny, but apparently scary to some, phenomenon occurring in the wake of the GOP tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and corporations and calls to end Obamacare without a replacement plan. Bailouts for major corporations and banks within the decade and then bailouts for corporate farmers as trade war begun by Trump escalated costs for consumers and crushed overseas markets for American food production.

A reaction to big rightward tilt in economic justice.

So, this editor from Jacobin, the farthest left of the left of publications claims that what "democratic socialists" really want is the end of capitalism altogether. A quite extreme view. Undoubtedly some of the most extreme do want that. But is that what the 45,000 think they mean by 'democratic socialism' or is it closer to what most of Europe embraces?

And it's very different than what the two most prominent Democrat politicians who have embraced this label themselves have explicitly argued. Neither AOC (even in her earliest most outspoken and brash days) or Bernie believe that capitalism or markets should end altogether. Nope. They have argued that the 'balance' needs to shift dramatically towards social economic justice and away from the wealth concentration that has occurred (factually)...but not an elimination of capitalism. They want to restrain and regulate the worst of capitalist impulses and to provide "socialist' benefits to all through taxation, but that's still capitalism as a core piece of the engine.

Meanwhile, the Democratic Party keeps mostly putting forward as national candidates to actually run the country those who are much less further left than those two. And they are the ones who win the nominations to represent the Party.

Again, we can debate specific policies, the costs and benefits, the efficiencies, etc in accomplishing worthy goals...and we can debate the worthiness of those goals, but demonizing entirely one side or the other based on the most extreme views isn't fruitful. It's stupid.

And no, Salty, you didn't actually define what socialism means.
Try all the dictionaries you want, and you'll need to agree that parts of our system are quite 'socialist' while most have some elements of such. We are neither purely socialist nor purely capitalist. Neither are 'evil' (IMO) and we shouldn't be afraid to embrace elements of both in achieving the "balance" that works best, given that each has flaws the other well addresses.

And yeah, that includes our military academies.
There's no legitimate reason to deny how they are 'socialist' and yet are worthy of support.
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: 2024

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:31 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:43 pm How the F is "Fix K-12 Education and implant immigrants work ethic" a "plan"? What are you, younger than my daughter?

How does the government do that, OS? At least PRETEND you have details.
The govt can't fix it because 1 political party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Teacher's Unions.
Covid revealed their misplaced priorities. That's why parents are rebelling at school board meetings & being arrested as terrorists.
The gubmint can't & won't fix K-12 public school education. Parents will & are.
more gaslighting. Why do it?
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:31 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:43 pm How the F is "Fix K-12 Education and implant immigrants work ethic" a "plan"? What are you, younger than my daughter?

How does the government do that, OS? At least PRETEND you have details.
The govt can't fix it because 1 political party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Teacher's Unions.
Covid revealed their misplaced priorities. That's why parents are rebelling at school board meetings & being arrested as terrorists.
The gubmint can't & won't fix K-12 public school education. Parents will & are.
:lol: Even IF you believe this idiocy, this isn't a "Republican plan". Your'e telling me the "plan" is: do nothing.

Covid showed us that guys like you don't give a sh(t about teachers, and while you were isolating safely and getting everything you needed delivered to your home like all the rich Americans did, you DEMANDED that they shut up, don't complain, and go teach kids that everyone knows carries all manner of viruses. F them, right? Teachers are bad, and ruining our country. So they should be exposed to Covid while you backseat drive, and tell them to shut up and get back to work. Oh, and get paid wages in most States that are lower than what fast food workers make.

YOU are why there is a teacher shortage in right wing States, OS. You think that Teachers should shut up and teach they way that right wingers want them to teach. And if they don't? Oh, they're commies, and trying to ruin kids. And they're allllllll telling you and your pals that this is a free market, and they have ZERO interest in doing what a bunch of idiots with ZERO training in educations tell them to do. So they are leaving in droves.

What's your plan when we can't get teachers anymore? Put five year olds in front of your beloved FoxNews for 8 hours a day? :roll:

As for your 1000% wrong assertion that "one party controls teacher's unions"? :lol: You're acting like a moron again: explain how States that have been run by your glorious and flawless Republican party has the WORST educational outcomes? No libs. No Dems. 100% owned and operated by the Republican party. Here in 2024? There are 23 States run ENTIRELY by the Republican party....where the are COMPLETELY in charge of educating their kids. And you're telling me that these States are broken. I agree. Seems like your magic party can't run our school, either, and this has NOTHING to do with your pre-recorded "libs ruin everything".

Try again, pal. This Is NOT a Republican solution. This is yet another "libs are bad" rant.
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:41 pm IMO, a fan is absolutely crushing Salty in this exchange, so he needs no help from me piling on to make fun of the gaslighting.
I crush him in MOST of our exchanges because he's gaslighting, and is playing the fool.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/thre ... education/

It’s natural for people to get stories wrong in crisis, and the COVID-19 pandemic is no exception. But we’re still getting key things wrong about COVID-19’s impact on schools after officially exiting the pandemic. Here, I describe three myths about the pandemic’s impact on public education. From my perspective, a combination of sensationalist headlines and political opportunism fuel the first two myths: namely, that public school enrollment has dropped precipitously and that public schools deserve the blame for learning loss. The third myth, in contrast, makes the post-COVID-19 situation in schools seem better than it is—that is, recent changes in test scores accurately reflect students’ pandemic losses.

Myth #1: There was a “seismic” decline in public school enrollment
The first myth is that COVID-19 has gutted public school enrollments. One New York Times headline indicated a “seismic shift” with a subtitle that the “pandemic has supercharged the decline in the nation’s public school system.”

Contrary to popular belief, COVID-19 has only caused a 2% drop in public school enrollments nationally. Some of the latest evidence also suggests no drop at all in cities like Detroit and New York City that were heavily criticized for staying remote so long. By comparison, there was a 15% decline during the mid-1970s-1980s without a pandemic (due mainly to demographic shifts). (I wonder what was going on during this period?) That’s a real seismic shift—seven times larger than the COVID-19 drop.

Projected enrollments will likely drop by more than two percent in the coming years due to declining birth rates and immigration. Looking at the trend line in district enrollments ten years from now, we may barely notice the COVID-19 years.

In fact, what’s most remarkable is how little COVID-19 altered public school enrollments. Every child in the country was forced out of their school buildings for a time. Parents became more familiar and experienced with the many online tools that allow students to learn from home, and some shopped around for alternatives. If ever there was a chance to reconsider, this was it. Yet, the best analyses suggest only 372,000 students switched to homeschooling or private schools—out of 50 million nationally.

Critics might argue that few switched schools due to a lack of good alternatives, but polls show high satisfaction with public schools during the pandemic. One poll showed 78% of families were satisfied with how public schools handled the pandemic; in another, the figure was 80%.

No, the public school enrollment drop was not seismic. The real concern ought to be that some students might have left, never to return to any form of schooling.

Myth #2: Learning loss was the fault of public schools and unions (and their push for remote learning)
The effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on students’ educational progress are undeniable, particularly in public schools. Test score declines were largest where schools were closed the longest, and public schools were closed more and had less live interaction than private schools. Recent NAEP scores reinforce that scores did not drop as much in private schools as in public schools.

Do public school leaders bear responsibility for what happens in schools? To some extent, yes. People need to take responsibility for their actions. But during the pandemic, what exactly did public schools control?

One thing public schools don’t control is who walks in the door. Private schools have tuition and admission criteria that mean they serve more affluent families, whereas public schools must accept all children residing in their district. One study found that the educational level of private school parents is 1.5 years higher than public school parents. The income disparity is even more astounding—67% higher for private school families. During the COVID-19 pandemic, these differences mattered. We found that students’ race and family income were among the strongest predictors of schools’ instructional mode during the pandemic. One possible explanation is the large difference in COVID-19 vulnerability across groups. Black and Hispanic people had 70% and 100% higher death rates, respectively, than white people. This is reflected in polling data showing that people of color expressed more fear of the virus during the pandemic. It is also reflected in data showing that parents of color were more hesitant about sending their kids back to school in-person. All told, these data suggest that schools were mostly following the lead of parents whose pandemic experiences and preferences around school reopenings differed.

Differences in school staffing also made navigating the pandemic more challenging in public schools. For example, public schools rely more heavily on bus drivers and food service workers than private schools. Even one bus driver diagnosed with COVID-19 could upend an entire day of learning, leading public schools to lean more toward remote instruction.

Of course, a large part of the staffing story was about teachers. Teacher unions received a lot of blame—some of it deserved—for the pace of school reopenings. However, we found that community demographics and politics were more strongly predictive of the timing of school reopenings than the presence of a teachers union. We should remember, too, that unions’ concerns were rooted in a good cause: to protect their members. Over a million people lost their lives from COVID-19, and the majority of deaths occurred in 2021—even after protective equipment and vaccines became available.

So far, I’ve focused on how public schools and unions shaped decisions about instructional mode, but even this presumes that instructional mode was the main driver of learning loss. It certainly played a key role, but evidence also suggests that it was not the only factor at play. Student demographics strongly predicted learning loss even after accounting for instructional mode. And some students seemed to struggle more than usual, regardless of instructional mode. Students may have worried about the pandemic generally and the health of their parents and grandparents, or they may have had to chip in more to support their families during the economic downturn initially triggered by the pandemic. To chalk this all up to instructional mode is to ignore that children lived through an unprecedented social, economic, and health calamity.

It’s no wonder public schools stayed remote longer. They serve students who were at higher risk during the pandemic. Public schools also involve more complex staffing arrangements which were more brittle during the pandemic. Of course, we all could have done better in retrospect. Hindsight is 20:20, and with a once-in-a-century pandemic, foresight approaches blindness. But, no, we can’t blame the public school system and union leaders for student learning loss.

Why, then, are we still getting these stories wrong? I’d argue that we can thank politics—and, specifically, the right’s current focus on expanding private school choice via school vouchers. For example, one prominent voucher supporter acknowledged that they were trying to “build the best surfboard for parents. This [COVID] was the right wave.” In fact, they got two in one—Trump and COVID-19 converged into a single, massive wave. Even before COVID-19, Trump was a vocal critic of public schools, talked frequently about school choice, and appointed the nation’s chief voucher advocate, Betsy DeVos, as secretary of education. Trump plus COVID-19 amplified the drumbeat against public schools and for vouchers.

But not all the headlines were designed to make public schools look bad. One, perhaps accidentally, made them look better.

Myth #3 – The decline in test scores accurately captures the full educational loss
As bad as it seems, the data on student test scores understates what children lost educationally. This is the case for three reasons:

Most of the test results we see pertain only to students (regularly) attending public schools. Tests are generally only taken by students who are in school buildings. However, we know that some students permanently switched to virtual schooling, and that even students who stayed in brick-and-mortar schools are missing class–and perhaps missing sitting for standardized tests–twice as often as before. Since these groups learn at slower rates, this missing data problem is likely inflating average scores.
Test scores mostly capture the material students have learned recently, not over the full course of the pandemic. This is easiest to see with state standardized tests that are aligned to grade-specific standards. The 8th-grade math test, for example, is designed to cover the math that most students take in 8th grade. But, with COVID-19, students missed learning during three academic school years. While some of the lost learning in these three earlier grades will show up in 8th grade, not all of it will. So, when we compare tests in any given grade before and after COVID-19—which is essentially what all the learning loss studies do—we’re likely understating the extent of learning losses.
Test scores do not adequately capture declining mental health and lower value and expectations for education. Test scores provide a limited view of students’ well-being. In a survey we conducted of students in New Orleans before and after COVID-19 (2019 and 2022), we saw a trend toward students being more concerned about their emotional health, putting forth less academic effort, valuing education less, and having lower expectations of college attendance. These will likely have a more significant negative impact on children’s potential in the long run than what test scores are showing.
This understatement of the educational problem isn’t deliberate in the way the sensationalism and politicization of the first two myths appear to be, but the harm of this misrepresentation may be no less consequential.

We have an even bigger problem on our hands than we realize, and current efforts are falling woefully short. The influx of federal ESSER funds to schools, while well intentioned, has proven difficult to spend effectively, especially with ongoing labor shortages and the temporary nature of the funding. Even the most promising strategies, like tutoring, aren’t reaching many students and aren’t designed to address declining mental health and value and expectations for education. Vouchers, meanwhile, actually seem to make the academic problems worse.

I can’t say that I have a magic bullet, but, clearly, we have little chance of tackling these COVID-19-induced difficulties if we don’t better understand and communicate them first.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: 2024

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

It would just be sad if it weren't so infuriating. Drinking the kool-aid and buying into those beliefs is one of the prime examples why schools are underperforming. It just further exacerbates the problems.

Coaching alongside multiple public high school teachers gives you a lot of insight into the various problems facing our schools today. And it's got absolutely nothing to do with what OS thinks.
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:43 pm :lol: Still want to pretend you're a drooling idiot. Cool.

How the F is "Fix K-12 Education and implant immigrants work ethic" a "plan"? What are you, younger than my daughter?

You're not this stupid, stop acting like you are.

Right before you take taxpayer dollars to educate and train you. You're like all 2024 Republicans: Handouts for me, and everyone else can F off.

You're lying. You want government for the groups you like, and for the groups you don't like, you want them to feel the full force of the free market. And if they complain? You call them lazy......as you enjoy your Federal Bennies and lifetime health care.
Here ya go Comrade. Another sympathetic definition of your version of your socialism from your fellow travelers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/p ... story.html

What Is Democratic Socialism? Whose Version Are We Talking About?

Members of the Democratic Socialists of America gathered in New York in May. Because a binary view of “liberals” and “conservatives” dominates American politics, ideologies to the left of mainstream Democrats tend to get lumped together

By Maggie Astor, June 12, 2019

Democratic socialism has become a major force in American political life. Just look at Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who is planning a national address on Wednesday on what it is and why he believes it’s needed.

Yet if you ask five self-described democratic socialists what the term means, you’re likely to get five different answers. Here’s why.

Democratic socialism has a definition …
Political theory isn’t exactly a crowd-pleaser on the campaign trail, but you need some of it to understand why “democratic socialism” means so many things to so many people.

Leftist political theory encompasses a wide range of ideologies, which can be divided roughly into three categories.

Communism is what existed in the Soviet Union and still exists in China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam. It isn’t monolithic, but the common thread is a fully centralized economy achieved through revolution.

This is the image some critics evoke against less radical ideologies, as the “Fox & Friends” co-host Pete Hegseth did when he called Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s $15 minimum wage for her staff “socialism and communism on display.” In reality, no federal official or Democratic candidate advocates communism.

At the other end is social democracy, which is common in Europe. It preserves capitalism, but with stricter regulations and government programs to distribute resources more evenly. Consider Elizabeth Warren: She supports capitalism, but her proposals would remake the American economy in an effort to reduce inequality and guarantee basic needs.

Democratic socialism falls in between.

If we use the standard definition, democratic socialists don’t support capitalism: They want workers to control the means of production. In social democracies, by contrast, the economy continues to operate “on terms that are set by the capitalist class,” Maria Svart, national director of the Democratic Socialists of America, told The Times last year. “Our ultimate goal really is for working people to run our society and run our workplaces and our economies.”

Unlike communists, however, democratic socialists believe socialism should be achieved, well, democratically. This requires a long-term outlook, because they know theirs is a minority position. Their goal is to convince a majority, but in the meantime, they support many social-democratic policies.

Ultimately, though, Sweden isn’t what democratic socialists like Bhaskar Sunkara, editor of Jacobin magazine, a quarterly socialist journal, are looking for. “We come from the same tradition,” he said of democratic socialists and social democrats. But generally, he added, social democrats see a role for private capital in their ideal system, and democratic socialists do not.

… but Americans use it to mean a lot of things
In countries that have multiple leftist parties, these distinctions are commonly understood. In the United States, they aren’t.

Because a binary view of “liberals” and “conservatives” dominates American politics, ideologies to the left of mainstream Democrats tend to get lumped together — which often means the left conflates democratic socialism and social democracy, and the right casts all of it as socialism or communism.

“Here in the United States, we are alarmed by new calls to adopt socialism in our country,” President Trump said in his State of the Union address this year. “Tonight, we resolve that America will never be a socialist country.”

Mr. Sanders identifies as a democratic socialist, but when asked on Tuesday how he defined that, he described something closer to social democracy.

“What democratic socialism essentially means to me is completing the vision that Franklin Delano Roosevelt started some 85 years ago, and that is to go forward in the wealthiest country in the history of the world and guarantee a decent economic standard of living in life for all of our people,” he said. “And to do that, obviously we have to combat oligarchy and the incredibly unfair and unequal distribution of wealth and income, and to take on the incredible political power that the 1 percent have.”

The policies Mr. Sanders supports — like single-payer health care, free public college, and higher taxes on the wealthy to fund safety-net programs — are also standard in social democracies.

“His practical program is a program that would be pretty comfortable within the confines of any European country,” said Sheri Berman, a professor of political science at Barnard College. “As far as the policies he’s advocating, those are probably better viewed as social democratic — that’s what they would be in another place in which there are more left options.”

But “because we don’t have a social-democratic party in this country,” Professor Berman said, “the only way to indicate that you want to go further than the Democratic Party — that you are more critical of capitalism than the Democratic Party has been — has been to identify yourself as a democratic socialist.”

And so, even on a question as basic as whether democratic socialism and capitalism can coexist, there is disagreement.

“There are some democratic socialists that would say, ‘Absolutely not,’” Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, who identifies as a democratic socialist, told MSNBC in February. Others — herself included, she said — “would say, ‘I think it’s possible.’”

This complicates the debate
Democratic socialists are not necessarily bothered by the loose definition. There is room for more than one movement on the left, Mr. Sunkara said.

“Socialism means many things,” he said, adding that he tried to avoid policing which self-identified socialists count as real socialists.

But there is little question that the lack of a common definition confuses the political debate.

“Socialist” and “communist” have long been catchall epithets for any proposal that would substantially expand the role of government — including ones, like Social Security and Medicare, that are now popular across the political spectrum. There is a big difference between social-democratic policies and ones that would actually shift control of the means of production, but that distinction is often lost in political discourse.

This was clear in a Harris Poll conducted in April, which found that 40 percent of Americans would rather live in a socialist country than a capitalist one — but their definitions varied widely, making it impossible to conclude how many supported any given version of socialism.

About three-quarters of all respondents (both supporters and opponents of socialism) said a socialist system would involve universal health care and tuition-free education. About two-thirds said it would involve a guaranteed living wage, and a similar number mentioned a state-controlled economy. Sixty-one percent said it would include state control of private property, and 57 percent believed the government would control the news media.

“When everybody defines a term in their own way,” Professor Berman said, “it makes it harder for voters or the public to figure out exactly what that term is supposed to signal.”
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:50 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:31 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:43 pm How the F is "Fix K-12 Education and implant immigrants work ethic" a "plan"? What are you, younger than my daughter?

How does the government do that, OS? At least PRETEND you have details.
The govt can't fix it because 1 political party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Teacher's Unions.
Covid revealed their misplaced priorities. That's why parents are rebelling at school board meetings & being arrested as terrorists.
The gubmint can't & won't fix K-12 public school education. Parents will & are.
:lol: Even IF you believe this idiocy, this isn't a "Republican plan". Your'e telling me the "plan" is: do nothing.

Covid showed us that guys like you don't give a sh(t about teachers, and while you were isolating safely and getting everything you needed delivered to your home like all the rich Americans did, you DEMANDED that they shut up, don't complain, and go teach kids that everyone knows carries all manner of viruses. F them, right? Teachers are bad, and ruining our country. So they should be exposed to Covid while you backseat drive, and tell them to shut up and get back to work. Oh, and get paid wages in most States that are lower than what fast food workers make.

YOU are why there is a teacher shortage in right wing States, OS. You think that Teachers should shut up and teach they way that right wingers want them to teach. And if they don't? Oh, they're commies, and trying to ruin kids. And they're allllllll telling you and your pals that this is a free market, and they have ZERO interest in doing what a bunch of idiots with ZERO training in educations tell them to do. So they are leaving in droves.

What's your plan when we can't get teachers anymore? Put five year olds in front of your beloved FoxNews for 8 hours a day? :roll:

As for your 1000% wrong assertion that "one party controls teacher's unions"? :lol: You're acting like a moron again: explain how States that have been run by your glorious and flawless Republican party has the WORST educational outcomes? No libs. No Dems. 100% owned and operated by the Republican party. Here in 2024? There are 23 States run ENTIRELY by the Republican party....where the are COMPLETELY in charge of educating their kids. And you're telling me that these States are broken. I agree. Seems like your magic party can't run our school, either, and this has NOTHING to do with your pre-recorded "libs ruin everything".

Try again, pal. This Is NOT a Republican solution. This is yet another "libs are bad" rant.
Covid exposed the Teachers Unions true priorities, & it wasn't their students. Compare test scores with countries & even US individual states that didn't keep schools closed as it became obvious that Covid was not a threat to kids & teenagers.

Parents are voting with their feet. School choice, Charter schools, home schooling co-ops & private or parochial schools for those who can afford it.
Last edited by old salt on Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/1/6/2354 ... ion-study/

Historically, education has been far less partisan than other policy issues. Over the past two decades, major federal education laws passed with broad bipartisan support, and red and blue states adopted similar teacher rating systems and learning standards. At the local level, school board races typically are nonpartisan and voting occurs separately from other elections.

But that partisan insulation has been slowly eroding. Mayors, governors, and philanthropic groups have challenged the authority of local school boards and local teachers unions, sparking new political clashes and bringing national education debates to the local level.

“When people were making decisions based on their local community and their local experience, Republicans and Democrats didn’t differ sharply,” Henig said. But “when the debates get nationalized, either because they’re getting driven by national legislation or national interest groups are reaching into these communities, then you do get this sharp partisan divide.”
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:01 pm Covid exposed the Teachers Unions true priorities, & it wasn't their students.
Oh, those BASTARDS, not wanting to get Covid.

Next time? Volunteer to teach those kids, and YOU can get Covid before the vaccine shows up.
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:01 pm Compare test scores with countries & even US individual states that didn't keep schools closed as it became obvious that Covid was not a threat to kids & teenagers.
Again, acting like you're stupid. Yeah, dude, Covid wasn't a threat to CHILDREN looking in hindsight. F'ing brilliant observation.

How old are the teachers and staff at K-12, OS? Are they all twelve? Or ten years old? :roll:

Yep, you did indeed show your true colors: you think teachers are expendible now that your loved ones aren't teaching. So you want them to shut up, and get back to work.

Newsflash: every School District in America had different school policies during Covid.
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:01 pm
Parents are voting with their feet. School choice, Charter schools, home schooling co-ops & private or parochial schools for those who can afford it.
There it is: you, like all Republicans could give a sh)t about anyone who isn't rich. F the working class who couldn't possibly stay at home to school their kids, and can't possibly

...you STILL haven't given the forum one single "Republican solution" to bringing the working class into the 21st century.

It's hilarious. This is why you and your party have stopped governing, and p(ss away all your time on "the libs are bad". :roll:

It would take me all of ten seconds to list of ENTIRELY old-school Republican solutions to bringing working class and flyover America into the 21st century.

And you can't name even one.....it's spectacular!
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

Not possible. 23 States are run entirely by OS's magic Republicans who don't tolerate those horrible liberal policies.

And naturally, these 23 Republican-run States have FLAWLESS educational outcomes that beat all of those nasty, horrible, no-good socialist Countries, TLD.

:roll:
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